With Robert MacPhee, the creator of the Excellent Decisions leadership program and the author of “Manifesting for Non-Gurus: How to Quickly & Easily Attract Lasting Results” and “Living a Values Based Life”. He has spent the last 20+ years working in change management, leadership development and values clarification. Previously, he collaborated with Jack Canfield (creator of the Chicken Soup for the Soul book series) as the Director of Training for the Canfield Training Group. He is a Founding Member and former Executive Director of the Transformational Leadership Council and a Co-Founder of the Southern California Association of Transformational Leaders. Robert honed his practical leadership strategies serving as an executive at several large companies and partnering with a number of entrepreneurial ventures. Robert’s first endeavor after graduating from the University of California, San Diego was a summer job that he and his partner built into a company with over 400 employees and millions of dollars in revenue.

Join us in this conversation ……..

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Takeaways & quotes you don’t want to miss from this episode:

• Why values can’t be put in a drawer and left there.
• How values can sometimes compete with each other.
• “If you really want to live a life of happiness and purpose and meaning and productivity and satisfaction, you’ve got to know [your values].”
• Understanding your values in terms of how you show up in the world.
• “If the personal values and the team values and the organizational values are all lined up, then you’ve got a really powerful culture.”

“If the personal values and the team values and the organizational values are all lined up, then you’ve got a really powerful culture.”

-Robert MacPhee

Check out these highlights:

• 5:27 How Robert struggled to clarify his own values about a decade ago and how that shaped his work around values.
• 15:56 The difference between aspirational values and current values (the values you are demonstrating in your life right now).
• 34:37 Hear Robert share on the concept of borrowing values and how that can get us through some of the more difficult times in life.
• 53:24 How this conversation around values is demonstrated in our parenting …
• 56:21 How organizational values and personal values relate, and which are more important in the context of running a business …

How to get in touch with Robert on Social Media:

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below:

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®… 

Robert MacPhee  00:06

The most important factor, in terms of getting people really engaged and satisfied at work is not getting them lined up with the organization’s values, but getting them really clear about their own personal values. The deal is when the personal values and the team values and the organizational values are all lined up, then you’ve got a really powerful culture.

GGGB Intro  00:26

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time, is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  00:54

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving online information entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I’ve really been looking forward to this conversation, and you’ll find out here why in just a minute. But I am super happy to welcome my new friend, Robert MacPhee. Welcome, Robert.

Robert MacPhee  01:25

I’m so happy to be your new friend. Well, thank you. I’m happy to be here. I need all the friends I can get. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:31

Me too. I will say me too as a mom who’s also an attorney and entrepreneur and has worked virtually since 2012 Yeah, right. So, yeah, it’s been a while. I can get a little cabin fever, honestly, but I love making new friends, and you don’t have a choice in the matter. That’s the problem, really, is that you agreed to come spend an hour with me on my podcast, and so I’m going to make you my new friend, whether you want to be or not.

Robert MacPhee  02:00

It wasn’t that hard, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:02

Perfect, perfect. Well, I remember when we first connected, I really enjoyed speaking with you. I think we had a 15 minute introductory call scheduled, and we spoke for like an hour.

Robert MacPhee  02:12

Yeah, we didn’t do real well with staying within that limit. Yeah, no, we

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:16

didn’t. And we met through our mutual friend Melanie Benson, who I just love. She’s a dear online friend to me, and we just met in person, actually, for the first time. Oh, earlier, yeah, which is super fun. We met first in a business master, Business Mastermind, and then haven’t just known each other for years, but we actually got to meet up in person last year, which was like icing on the cake. So much fun. But for those of you that don’t know Robert McPhee, I’m super excited to introduce Robert. We connected first on a conversation that had something to do with ethics. And I think it was probably business ethics and business but obviously I live in the legal world, and so I probably had a legal, you know, slant on it, but Robert lives in the world of somebody who teaches individuals and companies about values. And so let’s I’m going to go ahead and read your bio, Robert, but stick around folks, because we’re going to get into a really juicy conversation today. So Robert is the creator of the excellent decisions, values based leadership program. He’s the former director of training for the Canfield training group, having worked closely for many years with Jack Canfield, the CO creator of the Chicken Soup for the Soul book series, and the author of the success principles. Robert is a founding member and former executive director of the transformational leadership council, a co founder of the Southern California Association of transformational leaders and a former executive board member of the San Francisco Bay Area chapter of conscious capitalism. Robert is a knowledgeable fun okay, we’re going to test you on that one. Robert fun and engaging speaker and facilitator. He is an expert in experiential learning, peak performance, values, clarification and leadership. Those are four topics that I love, Robert so you’re in a good spot. He has spoken at corporate conferences, industry trade shows, government conferences, colleges, universities, high schools, and he has been a featured presenter at a wide variety of corporate events and trainings. Robert currently lives in Sonoma, California. Is a committed father and former marathon runner, and has become an aspiring wine aficionado. And by the way, this is super important you guys. He just published a book Living a values based life, which came out end of 2023, so that’s really exciting. Congratulations, Robert, so happy to have you here today.

Robert MacPhee  04:49

Thank you listening to you read all that makes me realize why I’m so tired, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:53

I mean, you earned it. You earned it right

Robert MacPhee  04:58

now it’s been. A very blessed journey, and I love the work I’m doing. And it doesn’t surprise me, based on our previous conversation, that those four topics are like, oh, yeah, let’s talk about that for you.

Heather Pearce Campbell  05:09

Yeah, right. Not everybody wants to jump into that, but I think they’re awesome topics. Um, talk to us about how you got started. It like values is not a place where most people live, as an area of study, right? And an area of expertise? It’s

Robert MacPhee  05:27

not, and that’s part of the answer to your question is, and this is a little bit of an embarrassing story for me, because I’ve been doing coaching and consulting work in one form or another for close to 25 years now, and about 10 years ago, I was struggling with my own values. I just couldn’t get my own couldn’t get a sense of clarity about my own values in a way that I felt like was really useful to me, like I could remember them and I could really apply them, and feel like I was really able to live my life in a lot it was just confusing and and my own solution for resolving that was to take the whole values conversation and divide it into two categories. And the first category was what is important to me, like the things that are important to me. Like linguistically, language wise, it was nouns, it was it was people, places, things. It’s my relationships with my children, and it was the contribution I want to make in the world and my own health and well being things like that. And then on the other side, in a separate category which is really closely related to values, which I consider values to be, what is important to me, but a whole separate category is how I want to show up in the world, like the qualities and characteristics that I want to fully embody and show up in every single day. And for me, those are things like humility and kindness and caring, which kind of go together, and peacefulness and calm and courageous like so that’s also really important to me, to show up that way in the world. But the problem was when I took my relationships with my children and I put it in the same basket as courageous, that’s where I got confused, and it was like, well, they those are not the same thing. They really don’t belong together. They don’t belong on the same list. But as soon as I separated them and I had a list of what I now call my highest priorities, like, what is most important to me, and my highest like, my most important, what we call ways of being like, how I want to show up in the world. I can literally look at those lists, and I have them in my phone so I can review them. I have a little alarm that goes off every day, and I take a quick, quick peek at my values and and I can say, like, how am I doing? Am I putting my time and attention on the things that are most important to me, and am I showing up the way I want to show up, and I can adjust and improve accordingly. So suddenly values went from confusing to really like useful and helpful, and I can, I can check in and every single day, move a little bit in the direction of living a little bit more in alignment with my values. So it was hugely helpful. And you would think, since I’m a coach and consultant at that point, for whatever 15 years that I would share it with other people. But the embarrassing part of the story is I actually didn’t like it just didn’t occur to me. It solved the problem for me, and then I just moved on with my life. Yeah, yeah. It wasn’t until early 2023 I was working on another project where we really had to tap into people’s values, to get people’s attention, to get them interested in this project. It was social justice project, and and the person I was working with said, Oh, tapping into values. No problem, because my excellent decisions work is, is making decisions based on vision and values instead of external stress and pressure. And she had heard that over and over and over again. She’s like, Oh, values. No problem. That’s what you do, right? And I kind of went, Yeah, I guess so, like, but it really forced me to take a look at what I had done 10 years ago and put something together to help with that project. And the response was unbelievable. Like, like you were saying, like, it’s people know it’s important, but not a lot of people have really done the work, or if they haven’t done the work, they haven’t done in a way that’s memorable and implementable, so it’s not creating a lasting impact. So the response has been unlike anything I’ve done professionally, in terms of people just kind of having a You had me at hello, kind of response because, because people, people want values clarity, but they don’t really know how to get there.

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:24

Well, it is interesting. I mean, I love hearing about your journey, and even this realization, like, midway through your own path, that there was this disconnect happening in the dialog and processing of like, how do we identify our values, right? And when you said your second batch of words, right, courage, you know, honesty, whatever, whatever they were, I think that’s what people typically think of as values. I think people often, you know, come up with those words as like, Yeah, well, like, of course, they are my values, but it’s very distinct. Distinct from, how do we live those how do we demonstrate our values? How does it actually show up in our life, in various areas? And I think that’s where things can collapse sometimes. And I remember doing my very first like proper values exercise. I can’t remember you, and I talked about this when we first connected, but it was clear back when I was in my very early 20s, and my mom had been diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, and so I was in a period of law school where I was also facing deep, deep grief, and, you know, struggling with, like, some bigger life things. And I saw a therapist who was brilliant and took me immediately to this values exercise that he, he had created, and it was across a series of categories, so relationships, but it was more defined than that. It was like communication sending, communication receiving, you know, fun, play like maybe 13 categories. And then he he had you choose three ways to express in basically, like an affirmation form, how you are demonstrating a value in that category. You know. So you know, ways. So for you, you’d make an affirmative statement around how you send communications in accordance with your values, how you receive communications in accordance with your values, right? So it was very much tying it to to how you show up in life. And I remember, and I can’t remember if it was before or after the exercise, he said to me, happiness, it’s really simple. It’s living a life in accordance with your values.

Robert MacPhee  11:48

Yeah, that’s how we measure and that’s the craziest thing about people not really being clear and not being able to articulate their highest values. Because I believe we all want to live a life of of meaning and purpose, and, like you said, happiness and and how do we measure that? Like, if we really don’t know our values, chances are we’re living our life to some degree in alignment with the all the demands that are put on us everywhere and every day and all the time. You know, somebody else out there wants us to live our life in a certain way so that, so that their needs are getting met.

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:23

Well, just I was listening to Greg McCowan, I don’t know how to say his last name, essentialism. Write the book. Essentialism. You don’t prioritize your life. Somebody else will do it for you. Yeah.

Robert MacPhee  12:37

Jim Rohn. Jim Rohn used to say, if you’re if you’re not clear about your own goals, you’ll be working to someone who does, who does have that level of clarity. That’s right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:46

Yeah, that’s it. And I think so often people bump up against that values conversation like, truly, for the first time, maybe in the midst of crisis, right? Certainly, I think often in the midst of some level of hardship, whether it’s you’re consistently experiencing, like a rub at work, or, you know what I mean, maybe you’re having some, you know, dichotomy or gap in like, the way home life is going and the way that you would really like for your home life to be going right? I think these are the kinds of, like, big questions and issues that come up that really force people to be like, What am I doing? What? What is it that really matters? Yeah, but

Robert MacPhee  13:26

unfortunately, that’s a really hard time to do this kind of work. So it’s kind of, it’s almost paradoxical, and it’s a really good point you bring up, and I think it’s one of the most valuable things of like, someone’s listening to this podcast, and they’re not in the middle of one of those emotionally charged or really difficult situations. Now is the time when you have the bandwidth and you can pause and really be thoughtful and, you know, take a first stab at it, and then consider it for a while and really get it to the point where you really land on values that just feel on purpose for you. Then when the emotionally charged or really difficult situations come up, like, like you were in when, when you were dealing with the therapist and going through that exercise, I believe it would have been a lot easier if you had had the opportunity earlier to do the values work, to revisit and reconnect to and say, Well, what do I want to let guide me through this difficult or emotionally charged situation, and it’s hard to do that kind of work, that really thoughtful present, you know, heart work, if you will, when we’re under pressure, like when the stuff is hitting the fan, that’s a really hard time to go pause and just reflect on what my highest values are. You’re like, my hair is on fire. I’m not pausing and reflecting on anything. Yeah,

Heather Pearce Campbell  14:46

so, yeah. Well, it’s, you know, it’s like, how else do we have those catalysts occur? And obviously, if you’re listening right now, let this be the catalyst where, if you have wondered in your own life how your values are. Or displayed, or how they’re showing up, or whether you’re really recognizing what your true values are. And that actually is a whole separate topic. Like, I wonder what you think, and I think we talked briefly about this, about the John Demartini, Dr John Demartini work, where he argues you’re already expressing your values. People fight, they have that internal dialog of like, I should, I should want to do this, or I should be doing this better. But he his, his premise is that you can’t really change your core because they’re part of like, who you are meant to, like, express as a person you know in this life. So somebody that is an entrepreneur that is going to, like, lead a revolution in the world, because that’s their mission. It’s probably going to have a work life balance value that looks very different than somebody who is like, here to be the best mom on Earth, right?

Robert MacPhee  15:56

Yeah, and Dr Demartini, and I love him in his work, he’s focused more on identifying what your current values are and what the real drivers of your behavior are right now in your life, my values work gets there, but it starts with creating aspirate what I call aspirational values, like what I aspire to, how I would really like to be living my life, and that may or may not in most people’s lives, there’s some areas where we’re doing pretty good, you know, we’re living our life in alignment with the way we want to be. And it’s, you know, we put time and attention on that. And then we get to number three on the list, and we go, Oh, that one, not so much, you know. Like you said, oftentimes it’s that work, work life balance thing, right? Like, I say, I’m really committed to being a great dad, but I haven’t been to my daughter’s soccer game in a month because I keep having a meeting or work or travel or whatever. Because what I’m really committed to, what my behavior shows I’m committed to, is my business and making money and finance and those kinds of things. So what I like to do is have people identify their aspirational values, like, how do I really want to be living my life? And then go back and do an assessment? And this was one of the best things about this separation in two categories. For me, it’s very simple to assess and see, how am I doing now? And Jack Canfield, who you mentioned in my bio, who’s a co creator of the Chicken Soup for the Soul series, and I had the opportunity to work with him. He used to ask a question in his workshops, like, what am I making more important than whatever? So when I come across that thing on my list called my relationships with my children, and I realize I’m not really putting time and attention, the question is, what am I making more important than which is really a values question, because our values are what is most important to us. And if I’m making, you know, work and family are both really important, and it’s hard to balance those two out. And many people would say there’s no such thing as balance. You’re always going to want a little bit more of one, little bit more of the other. But if you know, if I’m spending two hours a day surfing YouTube videos, and my relationships with my kids are sacrificing, then hopefully the values clarity will drive me really quickly in the direction of, no, it’s entertaining, but it’s really not important to me and and look at, look at my amazing kids. I want to, I want to put that time with them well.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:20

And I think you raise a really important point with this distinction between aspirational values and the values that your behavior is demonstrating right. And the reason being is one behavior is learned, but so often we are imitating behavior or inheriting behavior or mindsets that that shape our beliefs or our values from parents where they’re really not our own. Right. This is the whole midlife crisis thing, like, what, what version, what version of my life have I been living where my behavior demonstrates values that are not really mine?

Robert MacPhee  18:59

And that’s, that’s actually, it sounds kind of depressing, but it’s also a real gift when people become aware of that. And there’s a model at the beginning of the of my book that I call the change paradox model that explains, like, what really drives the way we think, the decision we make, and the actions we take. And a lot of times it’s what I call external influences. You mentioned parents, but it’s not just parents. It’s my parents, it’s my boss, it’s my friends, it’s the rest of my family. It’s media, it’s social media, it’s, I mean, it is, in today’s world, if you really think about it, we are bombarded with all these external influences that are telling us what we should do, what we have to do, what we need to do to be successful or to be a good father, or whatever it is, and and it’s subconscious. For most people, it’s like they’re they’re not really consciously thinking about it. And the the change paradox model is like, Okay, if you want to make a change in that, then you’re going to bump up against the fact that, as human beings, yeah, we desire change. We want. A better life. We want a better relationship, we want to make more money, whatever. But then when change happens, what do we do? We resist it, right? Like, just, it’s just part of being human. Like, oh, my god, more money. No, that’s dangerous. Who knows? You will get robbed. So, so there’s a paradox that happens. And in order to get to a place where our values, like our self image, our belief about who we are and who we really want to be, if to get to a place where that’s driving the way we think and the decisions we make and the actions we take, like we need to be aware of all those external influences and be willing to start saying no to at least some of them, to make room for our values to step in and be the primary driver. And like we were talking about before, like, if you really want to live a life of of happiness and purpose and meaning and productivity and satisfaction, these are all the words that come up around, kind of the benefits of living a values based life. You’ve got to know what those values are. So you can you can measure, I think you and I are pretty like minded, but if we sit down, there’s going to be some differences in your in your list of what’s most important to you and mine. So what you would use to measure, like, whether you’re really on purpose would be a little bit different than mine, but we both, we gotta know

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:11

totally. It’s well, it’s like, the compass, right? It’s like, are we and the target? Like, yeah, like, are we on track? Are we looking at the right map? Am I working from, you know, the wrong map? Totally.

Robert MacPhee  21:23

Yeah. And that’s a big shift in my business right now, because they told you the whole excellent decisions concept, which has been great for me, you know, living your life and making your decisions based on vision and values what’s really important to you, instead of all those external influences, that’s great. But the reason I’m really zeroing in on values right now is if, if I have a really compelling vision, and it sounds great at a cocktail party or whatever, but it doesn’t line up with my values, it’s ultimately not going to get me, you know, I make that vision a reality.

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:52

You’re not going to do the things to get there. No, yeah, I’m not going

Robert MacPhee  21:56

to be motivated like you said. And even if I do get there, when I get there, I’m going to go not all that. It’s not going to be quite the celebration that I ultimately want it to be.

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:07

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Robert MacPhee  24:40

and I would somewhat disagree with the premise that it’s hard for us to figure those things out. But I think what you’re really saying is that those external voices for most people, are so much louder and so much more persistent than any time we might take to really pause and go inside and. Really ask the questions about, I mean, our minds, and I believe, our hearts. There’s amazing research out of places like the Heart Math Institute in down near Santa Cruz, California, about the the thinking capacity, like the problem solving capacity of the heart. You know, we get really good at, like, intellectually thinking things through, but when we pause and really go into our heart, and this is part of what we do in the book, when we do the discovery of of highest values in both categories, we do kind of the mental exercise to use the power of our mind, which is pretty amazing. But we also pause and tap into the heart. There’s a couple of guided visualizations in there to really tap into that kind of energy. And my experience with working with people on this is that most people, if they’re willing to pause like that and ask those questions, the mind and the heart are pretty darn good at coming up with the answers, and sometimes in a surprising way, sometimes at a deeper level, like we have people ask the same question, like the question like, What is important to you? And we ask it over and over again. And the first things that come out for people are usually the things they’re familiar with. Well, what’s important to me is making more money, and what’s important to me is, you know, my family, what’s and then. But we keep asking, and sometimes beneath those like obvious answers, I call them the cocktail party answers, right? You know, somebody asks you at the cocktail party and but they only ask you once. Nobody asks you, like, 20 times. But sometimes people have like, epiphanies on the sixth or seventh or 10th or 12th question to say, well, you know what’s really important to me? Like, really important to me is, like, all the people who are starving in the world, like, I need to do something about that. And they’re kind of like, where did that come from? Like, I don’t even that’s like, buried below all these layers of like, survival and what, what all those external influences are telling me I need to do, and I have to do and you got to do more of this. And if you don’t do that, you won’t be successful. And added out of that, and lurking down there is, like, someone’s real, like, purpose and meaning. Like, I was just, just last night, I was at a movie screening. It’s called common ground, and it’s about regenerative farming and and it tied together so many things for me. Like, I walked out of there, like, so excited about supporting regenerative farming, because, because, like, sometimes I don’t know which direction to move. Like, is it social justice? Is it is it wealth inequity? Is it climate change? Like, how do I pick whatever, but regenerative farming? After watching this movie last night, I was so fired up because it’s like, connected to all those things, it was like, I want to get a lot more actively involved in this movement to change. I’ll keep my language clean for your family friendly podcast. But this terrible situation of the food industry, I mean, what we get for food the way we farm, what we call food, the poisons that are in our food, the mental health and physical health ramifications. It’s crazy. It is crazy, and a lot of it can be solved by just going back and farming food the way nature intended, instead of trying to somehow outsmart nature, never very good idea, but that it really tapped me into a sense of what’s really important to me. And one of the things on my highest list of values is contribution, like making a contribution, and that’s why I was working on that social justice project that I mentioned. But I do. I feel compelled to, like, I want to do stuff on climate change too. And this whole wealth and equity thing in our country is so crazy, I want to work, you know. So then I end up like, I can’t do it all, so I don’t do anything sometimes so

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:35

well. And I think that’s, yeah, that’s an easy it’s an easy place for a lot of people to feel almost incapacitated, because, you know, we have such access to information, to news stories, to everything. And you know, one of my real learnings as a mom is like, how to focus my energy so that I don’t get pulled in directions where I have a bleeding heart, and it impacts me when I there’s not an obvious next thing I can do about it, right? And so the question becomes, okay, what can I do? Where can I move the needle forward, what is in my lane to do? Right? And I’m so clear on that, yeah. And I think then it becomes

Robert MacPhee  29:19

actionable, right? Like, and that’s what I’m so, yeah, I think you, you and I share that like, we’re passionate about making it actionable. It keeps coming up because it’s a great conversation, you know, values and, oh, yeah, that’s a great idea, and it’s a great concept. But how do we, how do we take it all the way to implementable and actionable? And, like, I’m working

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:38

this is what a lot of people want to know, in a way that seems clear and seems doable and also doesn’t contribute to more burnout and more overwhelming things that people are already experiencing that again, disconnect us from our values based living right. Yeah,

Robert MacPhee  29:56

and this was part of what was really intriguing to me about. Being in a conversation with you and your audience on this podcast is because, on an organizational level, there’s far too many businesses and organizations out there that have done some some form of values work, but it’s either on the wall gathering dust or it’s in a drawer or a file cabinet somewhere. And if you really took a look at like on a scale of zero to 10, how actionable has it really become? That’s where people kind of go. Oh, well, actually, not really. Which is, which is such a shame, because I think with individuals and with organizations, again, people want to have that feeling of making a difference and making a contribution and and living and running their business in alignment with what’s most important to them, and money is a big part of that. You know, we live in a world where making money again, Jim Rohn comes up for me, like, more money makes us more of who we really are, right? Like, if we’re, if we’re, if I’m really living into those values. I told you, you know, kindness and courageousness and humility. The truth is, if I double my income, I can express more kindness, I can express more humility. I can express, you know, everything that’s on my list. I can be more of that in the world that we live in because of more income, more money, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:16

No, that’s right, yeah. I was having a conversation with my six year old about this whole, you know, about paying attention to language and how people say funny things that don’t make any sense, like money doesn’t buy happiness, right, and stuff that we buy into but, you know. And she was like, and I, you know, and I remember all the money stories, even that I inherited as a kid, and you do look back on some of those and go, like, what the heck? Where did these come from? You know, because, of course, more money makes you more of who you really are. If you’re a playful, generous, adventurous person, you get to express those values through money and allow other people to also experience more play and fun and like and who doesn’t need that, you know? And it’s that is such an important part of the conversation. And

Robert MacPhee  32:09

it goes, it goes back to the aspirational values idea, too, because, because that equation of like making us more of who we we already are, that can apply to like, the hardwired values of the values of the values we’ve taken from the environments and the external influences. Because if I’m so focused on, you know, making more money and creating a successful business and just everybody else get out of my way, I don’t care. It’s all about making more money. You know, the values that are really in play are selfishness and greed and things like that, and and more money will make me more of that too. Yes, exactly. And we see people who do that, and then they get to the end of the game, whatever that looks like, and they’re going, oh my god, what was I thinking? Like, this is not, this is not who I wanted to be. This is not the legacy I wanted to live. And I have, I am very much in favor of make more money. Like, I think that’s great. I want to make more money on but I don’t want to sacrifice this idea of living my life in alignment with what’s most important to me to do it. And I don’t, right, I don’t think I need to

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:11

that trade I well. And that actually brings up a really interesting topic related, I mean, really central, I think even in the discussion around values, is this idea around sometimes our values competing with each other? Uh huh, right? So I really value the work I do through my business and uplifting entrepreneurs and small business owners and like working and serving is one of my core values, right? So as being a mom and these things do not always coexist that nicely, right? And so when we end up in this dialog around I think some days, really negotiating our values and which one is going to win out,

Robert MacPhee  33:50

uh huh. And this is to me, this is why the values can’t end up in a drawer, I told you, like mine are on my phone, because we can start drifting in the direction. You know, you clearly love what you’re doing. You love the work you do. You do. You love your business. You’re doing this podcast, you’re engaging with all these amazing people. If you don’t remember your values on a consistent basis, it would be easy to drift further than you want. To drift away from being an amazing mom and an amazing business woman like and again, I believe you can absolutely do both totally,

Heather Pearce Campbell  34:22

but it’s an ongoing, active conversation. That’s the thing about values is like it is really the conversation we’re having every day about how we’re going to spend our time, how we’re going to show up, whether we make this choice or that choice, right?

Robert MacPhee  34:37

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is another interesting thing that came up in this whole values conversation, and I actually learned it from someone who has a podcast about values, but, but they talked about the concept of borrowing values, and I was like, What? What does that mean? But the idea is, like, I can have my core values, I can have my highest priorities. I can have the way I want to show up in the world. But I might be dealing, for instance, with like, kind of a crisis in my business. For instance, I might be like, Okay, this is an unexpected situation, and I’ve really got to put some extra attention on this, and I might need to show up in a little bit different way, like I might have a crisis in my business. And some of those things I listed about peaceful and calm and humble and kind and well, not out the window, though they remain. But what I do is I borrow values like situationally to handle that circumstance without losing who I really am. So I can stay humble, I can stay kind and caring, but I’m reeling in a little strength and a little discipline, a little focus and a little extra dose of courage to throw in there in order to get through that situation. Now, I don’t want to bring in the agreed and the selfishness and, you know, you know, uncaring. That’s going to balance out the caring I can I can address that situation in my business and still be who I really am, but be stronger and be more disciplined and be more focused, whatever it might be, in order to either resolve a situation or or just up level something to the degree I want it to be at. So it’s, it’s very empowering for people to think about that and go, Oh well, you know, depending on how things and they could go the other way. You know, most of the time I’m Mr. Driven and hard, and now it’s affecting my health, like I need to, maybe someone needs to bring in a little bit more peace and calm and relaxation and spirituality, or whatever it is, and borrow that for a little while until things kind of kind of get back to equilibrium.

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:36

No, it’s so true. And that’s that’s a great example, like when something unexpected occurs, or we feel, you know, off our game the because there’s other like in the personal development world, there’s other work around, you know, like studying the greats and also recognizing, you know, the people and the the leaders in your life that you admire. Like how you actually can own some of those traits in yourself, right? I was having a conversation with my husband, actually, last night we were watching, he likes watching those. He’s a real biology, nature guy. And there are those shows that have the like the wildlife. What is it? It’s it’s the, I’m spacing out on their titles. They work for the government, but they’re like, they enforce Rangers. Yeah, like Rangers around enforcing rules that you know, protect wildlife. Or there you go. Anyways, I will find that he sometimes will have those on, and we get sucked into a show about Game Wardens running around and, of course, interacting with all kinds of really interesting people. And there were these three folks fishing, of course, none of them had a fishing license. And really what there was was two poles down on the ground, one propped up in a, you know, something that held it up. And a woman who had had previous encounters with the law, and he recognized her, he was like, Have I seen you here before? She was like, yes. He’s like, Have I arrested you before? And she’s like, yes. He’s like, okay, whose fishing poles are these, you know? And he’s pointing to the two on the ground. And she’s like, I don’t know, you know. And the two guys there are, like, not ours. And it’s this whole, like, very funny thing happening. Funny, not funny, you know, but funny to watch. And she, she tells a fib about, well, I was fly fishing with this one, and then I had left this one at the like, acting like she was manning two of the fishing poles. And then the Ranger looked at her dating goes, Yeah, I don’t think so. And he just like, goes on to the next thing that he has to do. And my husband looked at me. He’s like, Oh, I wish I could be more like that. Like, just so direct, but just, like, easy about it, you know? Like, no, I don’t think so. And it wasn’t rude, it wasn’t a big deal. It was just like, getting on with business. And I said, Well, why can’t you, you know, why couldn’t you be like, if you have this desire to be more direct, like, maybe there’s something in you that hasn’t been living into that. And anyways, so it led to this very interesting conversation. But I think that’s sometimes the way that people recognize that they’re not living a value, right, or not living into something that’s really an authentic or an aspirational value, is like, at some point, maybe he learned to tone down his own voice, or to not be so direct or whatever, right? I don’t know

Robert MacPhee  39:26

the back story, or he might notice the consequences of that, like he might say, like I’m not achieving in this particular area of my life, because I’m, I’m too willing to let people steamroll me or whatever. But and then he can use and this is part of what we do in the book. And the approach we use is that idea of asking yourself, Who do I know in my life? Or maybe I don’t even know them, but I just know them by reputation, but, but who do I know who’s really accelerating or excelling in that area? You know? So it might be, you know, I want to be a better parent, like, who am? My life do I consider like a really great parent? And I’m like, it could very quickly come up with a list of three or four people, and then you can go to those ways of being and say, Okay, how does that person show up? Like, when I think of them as a parent, like, what words would I use to describe them? And it wouldn’t be like, impatient and frustrated and angry, you know, they would be they would be kind, and they would be caring, and they would be empathetic, and they would be patient, yeah, all those kinds of things. And again, then you can just borrow those values and and courageousness actually ended up on my highest list of values because I borrowed it first, like I was, it was when I was just getting this values work going on, and there was a lot of conversations I needed to get in that I was kind of resisting, I don’t know if I’m ready, then making up all these stories. And I was just like, I need to be more courageous, like I need to be willing to engage in these conversations and accept whatever comes out of them. And sometimes it’ll go great, and sometimes it won’t, but I recognized I needed more courage, so I borrowed it, and it worked out. So great. I put it on my top five list. Like, Oh, I definitely need more of this. So,

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:07

oh, I love it. Well, that also demonstrates, you know, this, this concept which we’re learning so much more about, right? This growth mindset, the fact that things are not static, we as people do not need to be static. We don’t need to be the person that we were last decade or even last year, if that’s not who we really want to be and and not only that’s

Robert MacPhee  41:31

the same values they had in high school. Not me, right,

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:36

no, but it’s such a great demonstration of the fact that we can just pay attention to that inner voice and lean into those wants and those desires and those noticings around like, oh, well, what if I was a little bit more like that? And I love the concept of borrowing a value, especially when you see one demonstrated so well by somebody in your life. I think that makes it more accessible, right?

Robert MacPhee  41:59

Yeah. And hopefully when people hear that, they’re aware, like, like, it really is that simple. Like, I could come off of this conversation with you, and I could just, God, I just love how engaging she is. That’s, you know, for the rest of this weekend, we’re recording this on a Friday. Like, you know what? I’m just gonna, I’m gonna borrow engaging this weekend. I’m gonna be more engaging and see how that is. And we can literally just do that. We can just decide to play with a value, with a way of being, with showing up in the world in a way that we would like to be more of. And I might, you know, at the end of the weekend, I might go, jeez, I don’t know how she does it. That was exhausting. I don’t want to be so engaging anymore. Or

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:37

some people top five, that is, yeah. I mean, I’m not my top five. Yeah,

Robert MacPhee  42:42

I’m kind of an introvert, like being really engaging and being really social, like, it drains energy for me, but I know for some people, it’s really it adds energy for them. So we’re all we’re all different, but values, you’re you’re absolutely right, they change, and that’s okay. It doesn’t mean like we did something wrong and we didn’t get it right the first time or whatever. It’s just the nature of it. It. You know, things change as we go through life.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:05

Well, it feels so fun. I think that there’s even a part of me that felt like, gosh, well, maybe values, especially like some really distinct ones, are just always a part of us. And maybe that’s true, but maybe it’s also much more about choice and experimenting, and how free and fun does that feel? Because how many times do you spend time around somebody where you’re like, Huh? What would it like to be that light hearted or that, you know, even silly, or whatever it is, right? And this idea that we can just try it on or borrow it, I think I don’t know there’s just something really refreshing and fun about that, because I think we tend to, especially as adults, get way too stagnant in our identities and thinking like I launched a book club at the start of this year because I really wanted to bring, like, a more in person element back to my life, especially for Women and interesting conversations. And we read the power of fun last month by Catherine price. And it was so fascinating to hear all these women, because I was a kid that, as a child, just got told repeatedly how serious I was. You know, I was a little kid that, I mean, from a pretty young age, probably just carried the weight of the shoulders. I mean, the weight of the world on my shoulders is how I felt, you know, like big problems were in my head, you know, it I was not probably a very typical kid. But what was typical about my experience is all these women in this book club group, which I also find fascinating. Like, are these the type of women that are attracted to a book club. We’re all told as kids how serious they were, and so the internal messaging for all of us is like, Oh, well, you’re not the fun kid, you’re not the fun friend, you’re the serious one, right? And

Robert MacPhee  44:56

what age, if you had to guess, what age did you make? That decision,

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:00

oh, at least by five.

Robert MacPhee  45:03

I think that’s what Dr Demartini is talking about. Because at that age they say, like, you know, zero to seven or eight or something like that. It just comes in unfiltered, right? We don’t ask questions. It’s just like, that’s who I am. You know, everyone’s telling me that’s who I am, yeah, and I, I think it doesn’t ever, like, really go away, but the power of a realization, like you said, well, like, yeah, that’s, that’s kind of what I’ve taken on. But I can decide, do I want to be more of that? Do I want to be less of that? I remember my kids, my kids grew up around this kind of work, this kind of conversation I was actually

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:37

working. They’re all brilliant around in the world. Yeah, now

Robert MacPhee  45:41

they call me on it. That’s the worst part, but, but they grew up. I was actually working with Jack Canfield while they were very young, so, and I didn’t tell people I didn’t have a PowerPoint and a flip chart at the dinner table or anything, but they literally grew up around this work and so, so they just, they just get it and and at one point I was talking about, like, Oh, I’m not good at music. And my daughter, she kind of crosses her arms, and she looks at me, and she goes, really, like, who decided that? Who decided that? Like, what do you mean? Like, you know. And I was like, dang. Like, she’s if she wasn’t so, right, you know, I’d get mad at her. But I was like, oh, you know. And, and now I have a guitar hanging in my office, and I’m not very good at playing it, but that conversation got me to think about it like I’d actually like to know just enough guitar where, if I’m feeling stressed out, I could pull my guitar off the wall and just strum some chords. And you know, I’m not going to be doing open mic night down at the club on the corner, but it’s very calming and very peaceful for me to strum just some really nice chords on the guitar. But I never would have done that if my daughter hadn’t called me on the fact that I had anchored in to one of those things that I Who knows where that came from, but no, I’m not musical. That’s right, really. Who decided that

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:56

well, and how much effort to combat that messaging, not only for ourselves, but, you know, for our kiddos, and just really paying attention to it, but you know, the one of older your kids, so my daughter’s six and my son is 11. Oh,

Robert MacPhee  47:13

that’s so great that you’re in the midst of all these kinds of conversations when they’re young, like that. Because it really, I mean, I called it my unfair advantage as a parent, like most parents don’t get to hang around with Jack Canfield while their kids were growing up. And I love to do work with young people whenever I can, to kind of give back in that regard, and kind of share the toolbox that that I had. And it’s so great to see how quickly kids, like they hear a conversation like this, and they just get it. They just immediately, they don’t need all the cajoling and the convincing and whatever.

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:42

Yeah, they don’t. It’s, it is really brilliant to watch. And that growth mindset language and that, you know, affirmation language, like they go off to school every day, and they have a whole little series of affirmations that they got to create, that we do in the car. And it just makes my heart so happy because they say it with conviction, you know. And it’s, you know, I think back to my child, and I’m like, Man, the difference of one belief changing for a lifetime can make a dramatic difference. My

Robert MacPhee  48:16

daughter was in middle school, my youngest daughter was in middle school, and I could tell she was really missing me. And so I invited, I invited her to come with me on a trip that I was taking. It was when I was working with Jack, and we were doing a series of one day workshops. And she came with me, actually, to Seattle, where you live. And the deal was that she would come up with me, and on our setup day she could help, like, it’d be fun for her. She was old enough, you know, she could help with all the setup and everything, and meet the whole crew. And then the next day was the workshop day, and she had to just be in the room. She could be reading, she could be coloring, like whatever she wanted to do, but she had to be, you know, she wasn’t old enough to just cut her loose in Seattle. And then the third day, I would stay an extra day, and we would go to the aquarium and go to the park and go out to lunch and whatever, just father daughter day, right? So she was on the day of the workshop. I’m wondering, I’m running the whole room, right? Like I’m the director of training. I got all the stuff going on, and I’m walking along the back of the room, and I see my daughter sitting in a chair in the back of the room, and Jack is doing this whole thing about personal responsibility, and no one can hurt your feelings unless you give him permission. And this whole thing that he does really powerful, but, but that was kind of the content. And I look at my daughter, and she’s got the workshop workbook open on her lap, and she sit and share, and she’s, like, following along, right, all by herself. And I sat down next to her, and I just watching, and I said, like, how’s it going? Like, what do you think of all this? And she looks at me. I will never forget this. She looks at me and she goes, What if all the girls in middle school really understood this?

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:44

Oh, goosebumps, right? Total goosebumps. I

Robert MacPhee  49:47

know I was like, like, she just took the bullying immunity pill. Like, all the the Mean Girls, right? Like, there’s nothing they can do to her, because she understands that the reason they’re doing what they’re. Doing is they’re hurting even more than than anyone else is hurting, and that they they can’t hurt her feelings unless she agrees to it. I was like, as a dad, I was like, oh god, yeah, so glad you gave like,

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:11

such a big, important lesson. Yeah. No, I know. I my kiddos, we talk regularly about how everybody in our life is going to make mistakes. Mommy and Daddy make mistakes. We’re going to do things that hurt feelings. We’re not trying to, but it happens. And the very, very, very most important thing in life is how we feel about ourselves and what we think about ourselves, and what we say to ourselves. And anyway, so we’ve talked a lot about this concept and about friends and about how teachers are going to let us down, and it’s not because they’re bad people. It’s just because they’re human. And you know, so one day about how

Robert MacPhee  50:48

different that message you just said about mistakes is from the the main message in society about mistakes, like when you make a mistake, you’re wrong. You should be punished. You should ever shine a bright light on it, you know? And we used to have something in our house called the mistake dance. Oh, I need to hear about this at all. I’m not going to dance on your podcast, but it was just, it was just a silly dance, right? It didn’t matter what the dance was, it was. The point was, when you make a mistake, we celebrate like we’re learning something. There’s, there’s nothing to feel ashamed about or to hide or be embarrassed about, or whatever. It’s just like, point the point me to someone who’s never made a mistake. Good luck with that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  51:30

Yeah, it’s we talk a lot about mistakes. And you know, our son, who’s also neuro diverse, right, has had his own share of challenges and but he’s also a kid who will come home and be like, Mom, I think I accidentally hurt somebody’s feelings today, like he will self report all day long. I’ll be like, buddy, let’s talk about it. You know what happened? Yeah. What do you think maybe we should do about that? Do you think that it’s appropriate to, you know, talk to them afterwards and ask them how they’re doing or how they’re feeling, or, you know, or even just to directly apologize. And so he’s a kid who it doesn’t even matter what happened, he will just self report. And I just have so much gratitude for his little personality that he can understand, that we can work our way through mistakes. It’s not a stopping point.

52:24

Mom, good

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:27

work. Well, it I also just have these really special kids, you know. And I’m also a mom who, let’s be clear, has made a lot of mistakes, and this is also why we talk about mistakes,

Robert MacPhee  52:37

yep, so it actually ends up taking less energy than trying to hide them, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:41

Oh my gosh, for sure, for sure. And I also will poke them and be like, who loves you, you know? And it was like my happiest parenting moment. This would have been a few months ago, before the holidays, Aiden was sitting at the table, and I said, who loves you. And before I could even think about what he was gonna say as an answer. He said, I do. And I was like,

Robert MacPhee  53:05

Yes, I’m taking the rest of the day off. Totally like I

Heather Pearce Campbell  53:10

wanted to cry. I was like, oh, bam. Mind blown. You know that that was instinctively and naturally his first answer? Oh, you know, it just, it made me so happy. So anyways, well, we could go on and on.

Robert MacPhee  53:24

I know we could. But you know, what’s really interesting, and I’m aware of is, you know, this was supposed to be a conversation about values and all that, but, and it is, it absolutely is, because I’m really clear that what you and I landed on in terms of connecting, and we’re still getting to know each other. We haven’t known each other that long, but what we, what we landed on here with this conversation about parenting, and I think people who are listening us, to us, can tell is that parenting is something that’s very important, that’s very much a high value for both of us. So once we, once we like, get once that happens, like you can’t unhappen it, you know, it’s like it’s, but it is. It’s a really great example of literally, I mean, the title of the book is living a value space life. It’s, that’s you and I both being authentic to what is important to us, and connecting in that way. It makes total sense

Heather Pearce Campbell  54:13

well, and it is so fun that concept of multiplexing, where you get to relate to somebody on more than one kind of unique topic or really important topic, and which is also what makes getting to know other people just so much fun, is because we get to literally through conversation and spending time with somebody, get to see them demonstrate their values, right? Robert, I’m so excited to send people your way and to have people be aware of you and your work and your new book Living a values based life, which I’m going to go pick up myself now, because I’m such a weirdo about values. I’m kidding. I say that jokingly, but I’ve always, I’ve literally always loved this topic, and I love you. Your approach on it, because I do think there’s a disconnect often in the way that we look at and talk about values. And so I’m super excited, you know, obviously I know I’m going to love it because you and I have talked about it enough now, but I’m super excited to pick up your book and actually read through the way that you present that information. And I’m so, so happy for others that get to find that as a resource. So if you’re listening, hop over to the show notes. You can find those at Legal website, warrior.com, forward slash podcast, and look for Robert McPhee s episode, Robert, we will share a link not only to your website, but to your book, wherever you want to post that. And I know I think you’ve got it accessible on your site as well. Correct?

Robert MacPhee  55:40

Yes, yeah. And we’re going to set up a code so people who hear this conversation on your podcast can get 50% off on the book, and it’ll be coming if they’re ordering it through our website instead of Amazon, it’ll be coming directly out of my office, and they’ll get a signed copy of the book as well.

Heather Pearce Campbell  55:55

You guys hear that, please order it directly from Robert and not from Amazon. This is my own personal preference? Yes, I know we go way deep into that topic, but yes, and

Robert MacPhee  56:06

also connected to values. But anyway, getting

Heather Pearce Campbell  56:09

a signed copy. If I have the chance to do that, I’ll do that all day long over getting a blank one. Robert, where else do you live online? Do you like for people to connect with you. What other I’d

Robert MacPhee  56:21

love for people to connect with me. And people can go to the website, which is valuespacelife.com, I’m accessible there. The book offer is there. Again, we’re going to set up a code called guts, which felt appropriate for this, for this podcast. And there’s also a button on the website if people, especially if you’re listening this conversation thinking like, how does this work really apply in organizations? I know you have a lot of business people and entrepreneurs, and I’ve been a very entrepreneurial background myself and and love working with organizations to bring this values conversation in on multiple levels. Actually, one of the most interesting things I’ve learned in this whole conversation is related to organizations, and how the most, the most important factor in in terms of getting people really engaged and satisfied at work is not getting them lined up with the organization’s values, but getting them really clear about their own personal values. And there’s really good, hard science behind that. And when I when I first heard that, I kind of went, Well, I don’t know. I think having them know the organizational values really feels important. But the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. You know, if someone is really clear about their own values and they’re still here, then, then that means that their own values are really lined up with with what we’re up to in this organization, and the ideal is when the personal values and the team values and the organizational values are all lined up, and then you’ve got a really powerful culture. But if people have questions about organizational side of all this conversation, there’s a way on the website to just set up an appointment, just just get into a conversation. We can talk about what’s going on with your organization, whether this is a good fit or how it’s a good fit. And I love to have those conversations with people.

Heather Pearce Campbell  58:06

No, I love that so much. And a reminder, you know, because a lot of the folks that are listening are going to be small business owners, entrepreneurs, that are building teams, is, you like, this is such an important conversation at the start. This is, this is not something that you have to wait until you’re a bigger, more established business to do, and it’s actually critical to do it at the start. And you know, to your point of like understanding your your people’s your team’s values. You know, end of the day, for people to stick around and be happy at work, they have to be seen for who they are and what makes them unique and the value that they bring because of that uniqueness, they don’t want to be a cog in the wheel, right? That’s not how you create the happiest employees. And so it’s like this conversation around values and how this ties into somebody’s even their core identity and really recognizing them. Super important, absolutely Robert, I’m so excited to know you very, very happy to have you inside of my circle. Super excited to share out not only this, this episode, but your your code for 50% off your book. So folks, pop over to the show notes again. Legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast where we will share all of those links. To connect with Robert, follow his work, get access to his book, Robert, we could keep going. I’m going to cut it off, but I am going to give you one final chance to share with us. You know, it could be a final thought. Could be a favorite quote. What would you like to leave our audience with today?

Robert MacPhee  59:42

Well, I think, I think the one thing I would want to leave them with is there, there’s a conversation that we’re in over and over again about how everyone understands that values are important, and yet most people don’t know or can’t articulate what their highest values are, and that can lead to a place of of guilt, like I. Should have done this, or I did do it right, or what have you, and what I would want to share is just move past that and and whether it’s with with our approach of separating values into two categories, or whatever approach you use, but take the time, make the effort, and again, at that time where it’s not an emotionally charged, really difficult situation, do it when you can be really present in the conversation, because getting really clear about your values will allow you to lead a productive, a satisfying and a really meaningful and purpose driven life, because that’s how we measure it. So please accept our invitation into doing that. However you do it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:00:36

Well, I love that, and I think that to be human is to experience disconnects at point, points in the way that we’re living, in what we really wish to express through our living so, yeah, it’s and like Robert said, it’s so much easier to address that stuff and sort it out and get deep into that conversation when you’re not in crisis mode. Well, Robert, thank you. I so appreciate you. Really looking forward to sharing this. Thanks for having me.

GGGB Intro  1:01:04

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup, and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more. See the show notes, which can be found at Legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast, so others will find us, too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world, and we’ll see you next week.