With Daniel Den, a marketing and sales expert with nearly two decades of experience, innovation is key. As the co-creator of the X Factor Effect methodology, he has helped over 20,000 students and clients stand out and dominate their industries. His philosophy, “Different is the new Better,” is the foundation of his nine-pillar framework for business differentiation. A passionate entrepreneur, author of Ideas That Influence, and world traveler, Daniel now calls Florida home while continuing to inspire business owners worldwide.

Join us in our conversation as Daniel Den reveals how differentiation is the key to business success in 2024. He breaks down his nine-pillar framework, showing how businesses can escape the “in the box” paradox and stand out. Through real-world examples—like a Batman-themed gym and a drive-through bakery—he illustrates the power of unique experiences. Daniel also introduces his book, Ideas That Influence, packed with strategies to help business owners craft wildly successful marketing ideas—tune in to learn more!

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Takeaways & quotes you don’t want to miss from this episode:

• Why is “different the new better”?
• The birth of the X Factor methodology…
• The connection between marketing psychology and legal strategy in influencing human behavior
• The power of experience in business…
• What is the difference between Commoditization and Differentiation?

“No one can copy the experience your customers have with you. Your brand’s unique experience is a major differentiator that can’t be replicated.”

-Daniel Den

Check out these highlights:

• 04:13 Daniel shares how he started in marketing and sales.
• 18:17 How Daniel’s struggle with copycats led him to create differentiation strategies…
• 35:28 How can you make your marketing message stand out?
• 43:10 Learn about The “Red Apple” analogy.
• 1:04:10 Daniel’s final takeaway to the listeners…

How to get in touch with Daniel on Social Media:

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below:

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®… 

Daniel Den  00:04

Different is the new better. Why? Because lots of times, when you ask somebody why they like something so much, they end up just explaining how it’s different. We just love new, we love novel, we love things that are different in a way that delight. It used to just be about trying to be better, like better quality, but in 2024 quality is expected. If you don’t at least have quality, then you know you’re not going to grow in 2024.

GGGB Intro  00:38

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:06

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving online information entrepreneurs throughout the US and around the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I’m super excited to welcome Daniel Den to the show today. Welcome Daniel.

Daniel Den  01:30

Hey. Heather Pearce Campbell, it is such an honor to be here with the Legal Website Warrior. Let’s go. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:40

That’s it. There’s only one. No, it is really fun to connect with you. I’m laughing because we just spent like 20 minutes talking, and we probably should have just gotten that on record.

Daniel Den  01:52

Nobody would have thought that was interesting. Oh, I think they would have, I think they would have, I know, so funny.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:02

Yeah, maybe we’ll get there. Maybe we won’t. But for folks that don’t know Daniel, let’s get you introduced. Daniel and I were introduced through and I just will do a shoutout to Andrew Weiss, who also lives in the podcast space. We’ll all be sure to make a link over to Andrew. I’ve been on his podcast. Daniel’s been on his podcast, and Andrew and Daniel now have both been on mine. So super fun to have these connections that overlap in the in the podcasting and business space. But Daniel became fascinated with marketing and sales almost two decades ago. Today, he’s the co-creator of the X Factor Effect methodology, where he and his team have helped over 20,000 students and clients grow their businesses. Daniel teaches that “Different is the new Better”, and his framework includes nine pillars. Nine is my favorite number. I just have to do a shoutout to your nine pillars for differentiating your business so that you can become a market leader or category king or queen. For several years, Daniel traveled the world full time with his wife and four children. We just have been chatting about that for a bit. They continue to travel often and now live in Florida. Daniel is the author of the new book “Ideas That Influence”, that was built to help business owners discover their own wildly successful marketing ideas. And I’ve actually, if you’re watching the video, or you can pop over and look at the video, I’ve got to hold this up, because Daniel sent me his box that goes along with the book. It’s like a whole book experience, even in advance of this podcast. So stay tuned, because you’ll find out how you can get your hands on this experience as well. I believe, right, that’s what you mentioned as a potential gift or resource for our listeners. And I’m telling you, you want to check out this box, and I will also do a shoutout to mark Stern, who is one of my favorite clients, and also handled the whole box experience. I mean, helped you design it, put it together. It’s awesome. I haven’t ever seen one like this.

Daniel Den  04:13

That connection as well. There’s too many cool things to talk about.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:17

There are way too many cool things to talk about. I know, and we had already talked about our roots overlapping. We’re both born in the same city. It’s just crazy, right? All paths lead somewhere interesting, but often the world is so much smaller than we actually think. So Daniel, I am super excited to have you here. You seem like somebody who really enjoys marketing. Yeah, and that’s hard for most people, that’s weird and it’s hard, it’s not weird. I love that you enjoy marketing. And I think for people that really learn it and learn how to do it successfully, it can be enjoyable, but most small business and entrepreneurs are like marketing.

Daniel Den  04:59

I’d say that I really enjoy marketing, probably for a lot of the same reasons why you like helping people with the legal aspect of protecting their business against bad guys. We were talking about that episode that I listened to, one of many great episodes on gut sprit and great business that so you guys on that specific episode, you guys went deep into the psychology, and that is what really hooked me in. I absolutely fell in love with the psychology of marketing and sales, of how to get people to take action. And a lot of the times you deal with the psychology of, Hey, why are these people, like, not doing such great things legally? And once you understand the why behind that, then you can kind of reverse engineer that into winning legal battles for people. So I think there’s a lot of overlap well as there as well. I really like the psychological aspect of things. I didn’t find that out until after I had kind of already been doing business for a little bit for myself, and after I had almost finished my degree, I actually am a really weird guy when it comes to what degree I got, I finished with a degree in Portuguese. And the only reason why I did that was because I have lived in in Brazil for two years as a missionary, and so it was the easiest thing for me to do was to get a degree in Portuguese, but I took one at one business class towards the end of my degree, and was like, why did it? Why did I do this? Why didn’t I get an MBA? Like, this is cool. This is what I like. And then I just started just going through books and books and books and books, and I started getting big into internet marketing, and started going down the path of marketing and sales, and started hitting some home runs for myself, and started hitting some home runs for others as well.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:17

I love it when you and I first connected. Did we have a conversation about Dan Kennedy. Are you a Dan Kennedy guy?

Daniel Den  07:23

I think we did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we had a conversation about Dan Kennedy.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:28

Totally. Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. So the other overlap we have is you taking a class near the end of your undergrad degree. It’s the same reason I got into law is I took a business law class at the end of my business degree, and I was like, Oh, this is interesting. And like that, one experience had me suddenly looking at law, and I’d never considered law before. So that’s funny. When you sat there, was it a business marketing class that you were in? What kind of business class was it that piqued your interest at the time?

Daniel Den  08:04

I owned so that I could pay my own bills going through college. So this is going too many rabbit holes here. So I owned a party business. Long story short, I was like one of the best balloon artists and all of Utah at at the time. And we would rent out bounce houses, and just people would hire me for parties all the time. And then I started to get in. I started a little bit to get into the online marketing world. And so I would sit in this business class, and they would ask questions, and my hand was shoot up, and I’d be like, and I knew all the answer, like I would and then I would ask questions, and like, what they would have guest speakers, and then at one day, this is the funniest part of the story. So I’m like, the most engaged person, person in the class. There were some other ones that were very engaged, but I would say I was probably the most engaged one in the class. I was just like, I was meant to be there, right? And so at the end of one of the classes, the professor, she calls me up, and she’s like, Hey, I gotta talk to you about something. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she’s like, I was looking and you’re getting a C, right now. And I said, What’s wrong with that? That’s passing, right? And so I was like, super engaged in class, but I was like, not reading the the textbook, because that’s the most boring the academic world. How they present marketing and business and sales is, is just extremely boring. What’s exciting?

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:46

You were over it. You were over it before you even started. 

Daniel Den  09:49

Yeah, yeah, And so, like, I finished that class with a C, but I was probably the most engaged one in the class, because I didn’t care about getting an A, and whenever. I did break open the book, it was at an academic angle of talking about things which never is going to get people excited. Like, if ideas that influence was an academic type book, then not. Like people would not finish it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:18

No thanks, opting out, I know. And not only that, textbooks, right? College or law school textbooks, oh, my gosh. Like, how overpriced and burdensome are those? No? Oh, it was miserable on that point, I went to school with the guy who was one of the original Microsoft employees. He actually designed Excel, the Excel program. And something happened along the way. He quit. They hired him back, like he’s a bazillionaire, I think. And he was only going to law school because he wanted to work for the ACLU. But work for the ACLU like donate his time, for the rest of his career life, to the ACLU, he was the only kid. I’m putting kid in air quotes, because he was like an adult compared to the rest of us. I mean, and there were other adults there as well, but like, he’d already done some things right. Most of us had gone like straight through from undergrad into law school, and he could afford two sets of law school books, one that he kept in his locker and the other one that he kept at home. So he, unlike the rest of us that were slogging like 100 pounds of law school books around on our you know, on our back, because we had to have our notes and everything else with us. Anyways, I always envied him throughout the entire law school experience. But yes, and you just pointed out, and you held up your book, because I do, I think this is such a great example, probably, of what you bring to your work around marketing and like helping it really come to life for people. And the fact that you were the party guy actually makes so much sense now, like connecting some of the dots. And like, we don’t know each other well, but we’ve had a couple of conversations. And like, it actually is really fun to see, like, how you probably bring that side of yourself as well to your work, and like, helping these ideas come to life for your clients. When did you realize, like, obviously, you went to school, you had that experience in class. When did you realize, like, marketing was something you wanted to do, like, in your work life, business life?

Daniel Den  12:35

Yeah, so I got, I would say that the transition was my wife and we with my brother in law, we started selling on ebay before, like, everybody and their dog started selling on eBay. So we actually made money on eBay. It was because we were, like, one of the first people to really like we at like, eBay and Amazon, just so everybody understands the problem with that business is that once you have something that’s working, well, that’s selling, then everybody just says, Well, I’m going to sell that as well. So we were the first to sell multiple and multiple categories, multiple items that nobody else was selling on eBay. We did the same thing on Amazon, but then at the writing was on the wall, and the writing, I do know how to because we’re the X Factor people, and we help people differentiate. The only way to avoid everybody and their dog copying you on Amazon or eBay, including Amazon itself. Because Amazon, if they see something working, they just copy it is to create a product that’s more than one thing and brand it. So I’ve seen a lot of people like, for example, one of my favorite examples I’ve seen recently on Amazon was like this shoe cleaning kit, but it was the dude’s shoe cleaning kit, and it was 100% branded, and every single bottle, even though he probably sourced all of the actual cleaning supplies inside of the kit straight from China, just like everybody else was doing. Everything was branded, and everything was put together unique to him. So he was the only one with his type of kit, with everything that he included, and all of his branding, and it was an experience. And so he’s crushing it with his shoe cleaning kit. And so you have to stack your differences that make a difference, and you have to stack em high if you’re going to compete in a big way, like on on Amazon in 20 but at the time, we started making money, and I that quickly transitioned to well, how? What other ways can I make money? I started learning about info products, and I started learning about affiliate marketing, and I invented so this is my claim to fame when it comes to internet marketing. And the point of this story is how we started helping the 20,000 different students and clients, because something bad happened. Okay, so it’s not the bad thing you’re thinking about Heather, but a different bad thing happened. So the bad thing that happened after the good thing happened was I invented the world’s first car insurance advertorial. I have verified this meaning. So advertorial is basically, it’s a sales pitch and article format. And it used to be like exclusively, a thing that happened in newspapers, but then with the internet, there’s advertorials found all day every day on the internet. It’s an article that sells something. So I was the first to create that for the car insurance industry. Everybody before me, like all the ads were just like, hey, say 15% and 15 minutes or less, and, and, and that you would just go to the landing page and then, like, request a quote or whatever. I created the world’s first car insurance advertorial, and I did it as an affiliate marketer. And for a full six months, I was printing money, and I was planning my retirement. I was the only person in the world doing it. I was running tons of traffic. My record Heather was on a specific day, I got up to spending $10,000 on ads in one day, driving traffic to my website. And I was just printing money. It was just wow. I was so excited. But then around that six month mark, somebody copied pretty much the entire website. They just word for word. They just ripped it off. And I was like, ah, what am I going to do about that? And my affiliate manager was like, Yeah, you can’t, like, legally, like, you can try to, like, stop people, but you can’t really stop people with something so simple, so easily copied. They just swiped your copy, your ad copy, basically, and your your article copy, um, and then that one turned into two, turned into five turned into 10. When all was said and done, I probably had 100 different copycat competitors, and the problem was it was very easy, like the barrier of entry to copy me was extremely easy. And so when I started working with Pedro superi, which is the co author of ideas that influence. He had clients who also were running into issues where they were getting copied just all the time, and people causing price wars and, you know, commoditization, and, you know, all sorts of things. So we started to create this methodology where it’s like, how can we differentiate ourselves to the point where we make our competition irrelevant? Like, that was the entire goal. Make yourself so uniquely different that if I did copy Heather, that it would be laughable.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:17

So, right? It’s the whole blue ocean, red ocean strategy, right? Yeah, stand alone, yeah.

Daniel Den  18:24

Yeah, it’s partially blue ocean, red ocean. So we started getting so many clients and helping so many people that we needed to help people learn to differentiate in red oceans as well. And so blue ocean, red ocean is part of it. But there’s it goes even deeper and that, and when all was said and done, working with Pedro for 12 years, we ended up with nine different pillars for differentiation. And long story short, we helped a lot of people hit market leader status and or category King and category Queen statuses in their industries, because of differentiating themselves, to the point where they pretty much made their themselves uncopyable, and they made their a lot of their competition irrelevant. And so that’s kind of the whole, the whole from, you know, me being interested in psychology, to let me dabble with it on the internet and make some money, and then, oh, and then I get copied. And then, how can we help people avoid these problems? And a lot of that leads over into IP battles as well, right? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:33

Oh my gosh, well, multiple points in your story, right? I’m like, oh, that design of we’ll call it the eBay or the Amazon products, like I had somebody show up the other day that has a first aid kit, right again, with all these sub parts, but a very unique design. And this is something where, if you are familiar with this journey, like, you need a patent attorney, and. Doesn’t have to be one of the more complex patents, but even a design patent done the right way can protect you from those copycats, but without it, without that, or even a trademark on the design like you can be really challenged in enforcing your rights in the marketplace and similarly, like, I’m thinking back like, Oh, I wish I knew you when you were writing all that advertorial copy, right? Because, bam, if you’d gone and got a copyright registration, federal copyright registration, there are ways to show somebody just took and copied. You know, 90%, 95% of your words changed out a few things. But boom, it was your work so, but that tends to be, again, like a cat and mouse thing, of like chasing somebody down doing the proper things. And you know, that can take the fun out of business. But in part, you have to really know, like, what is your path? What is the thing that you’re here to create and do so that you have the motivation to protect it the right way, right? And along the way, these things become just learning lessons. And like we talked about, you become a much better, more strategic version of yourself, even when you you know, are forced through these hard times. And so in the end, there is a little bit of a silver lining, even though they’re really painful to go through.

Daniel Den  21:24

Yep, in hindsight, I know that everything that you’re saying you’re at least going to cause friction for your competition. I think that’s the magic word when it comes to these type of protections, like if I go ahead and do the design patent, if I go ahead and get that extra copyright. If I go ahead and register the trademarks, at least we’re causing friction, so you’re at least stopping, you know?

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:53

Certain number of bad actors.

Daniel Den  21:57

I was like, what’s the word? Okay, bad actors. Okay, I like that. Alright, at least you’re deterring some of the bad actors. And then, best case scenario, you get to take one of those bad actors to court who made 10s of millions of dollars, and then you win a settlement. That is a scenario. I wouldn’t say that’s the best case scenario, because that’s not fun either, but it is a scenario. The But bottom line is friction.

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:30

All right, let’s pause for a moment and hear from today’s sponsor. Are you an entrepreneur who is on track to make a million or more in revenue this year in your business? If so, your business is likely facing a host of legal issues that are right for support. And if you are like so many of my clients at this level, you are likely tired of taking unnecessary risks and a DIY approach to legal support in your business. You’re ready to tackle the mess of legal documents, six legal gaps that you have. You want to take care of your IP, your clients, your business, and avoid unnecessary conflict and risk in the process. If this is you, and beyond just being an entrepreneur, you are a catalyst and are committed to your mission and your impact in the world. I invite you to get in touch. You could be a fit for my catalyst club, a small business legal support program that I designed for my high level clients. Just like you, you can find out more at legalwebsitewarrior.com. Just click on the Work with Me tab to learn more about the catalyst club and other ways that I support my clients, a fabulous group of world changing entrepreneurs, I might add, you’ve done the initial legwork in your business. And now you want to soar. And you know that you can only go as high and as far as your legal foundation lets you go. So get in touch today, hop over to legalwebsitewarrior.com, click on the Work with Me tab. And if you have any questions, get in touch through the Contact link on my site, I look forward to connecting it would be a joy to support you on your path.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:13

It’s friction and actually being able to have the ability to stop somebody earlier in the process, right? If you’ve got those registrations in order, you’ve got some counsel in place, and this is really appropriate. When you are in a business that is starting to generate some income, you know that there’s a certain amount of longevity in what you’re doing, or at least potential longevity that it’s worth the investment, right? Not everybody is going to start right out of the gate, handling all their legal stuff. And so often, even when I’m talking with somebody, I’m going to be like, Okay, what personal assets do you have in your life? Like, what? What’s the universe of what we’re talking about, as far as what is worth protecting? And if you’re like, you know, pretty green right out of the gate, you don’t have. Much by way of personal assets, and you just need to get a business model going and started. I’m probably not going to tell you to invest a ton in legal unless you happen to be a millionaire who’s just sitting on a bunch of money and you’ve got the ability to do that right from the start, because you’re committed to it, right? I’m practical, and I’ll tell clients like, you need to just go make some money and get proof of concept and then invest in your legal supports. 

Daniel Den  25:25

Yeah, I love that advice. It’s the same advice that I recently had with my brother in law and one of his businesses. So he’s, he’s right on that cusp of, well, we’re starting to make money, but do I really want to pay for the design patent? Is like, actually, I think you do at this point..

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:44

So have him chat with me. I know a guy, right? Okay, totally. Yeah. No joke. I’m not trying to fit you right on the spot. But seriously, there, you know, part of just like in your world, part of getting the right outcome in a business is working with the people who are right fit for your particular scenario, right? Like your marketing advice is not going to be for everybody if they don’t have the mindset to see things the way that you see things, right? Yeah, and maybe you can convince some of your clients, and that’s part of the job that we have to do as experts in our space. But you know it so often problems are solved just by having the right people involved right so again, for folks, if you’re struggling with marketing, get the right people like Daniel involved. So Daniel, tell us a little bit more about like, Who are you here for? Who do you serve? Who are the people that you really love working with? And give us some examples of the kinds of things that you help them do?

Daniel Den  26:48

Yeah, well, because I’m such a big fan of the marketing side of things, I usually lead with the marketing. So there’s a lot of people, I think a lot of us, we suffer in our business when we’re trying to grow from what I would call,  for lack of a better term, irrelevant syndrome, where we kind of feel really small, and it seems like when we try to make a little bit of noise, it falls on deaf ears. And so I end up helping a lot of people where, you know, maybe last year, they launched four or five big marketing pushes, and most of them didn’t really gain any traction. And they kind of feel like they either broke even or just made just they didn’t hit their goals. Basically, they were expecting big numbers and they didn’t. And so with this irrelevant syndrome, what we’ve basically, because we’ve been able to work with so many people over the years, and since, you know, I have pretty much two decades under my belt helping people with this type of stuff and doing it for myself. What we’ve noticed is 2024 is harder than ever before to break through the noise. There’s a recent Forbes article that says we’re all exposed to about four to 10,000 ads in the United States. So Americans, this is Forbes saying it Forbes four to 10,000 ads every single day. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:24

Oh, every day. Holy cow. Like think about that just for a minute. That makes, kind of makes me sick to my stomach.

Daniel Den  28:32

And now here’s the thing, when I started getting going in the later, you know, well, I really started getting going around 2007 with the whole internet thing. And I actually remember a statistic that said something very similarly, but the number was 2000 like, so since then, it’s at least doubled, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:00

Oh my gosh, information overload is alive and well and picking up speed totally.

Daniel Den  29:06

Now, I don’t know what Forbes was counting as ads, but the way I see it is, you know, there’s four to 10,000 like things at least, vying for our attention every single day. And what I like to ask Heather to people is, yesterday, with everything you were exposed to, was there something that broke through the noise and that stuck? Is there something that you remember that that actually impacted you, that said, Hey, this is for you, Heather. Now, when I ask people that, yeah, Heather, they’re like, are you not actually asking me this?

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:40

Yeah, no, I have an answer for you, but it’s a fun.

Daniel Den  29:43

Oh, good. Oh, good. So usually the answer is, I can’t remember anything, or that, usually there’s one thing. So what was the one thing, Heather?

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:51

Oh, it’s hilarious. I laughed so hard talking to my sister about it last night. So this is getting a little political. I’m not apologizing, because politics impact all of us, and people who say political is not personal, it’s just BS. But I’m a big believer in human rights and equality and all of that stuff. So obviously, of the candidates going right now, right? We’ve got Tim Walz and Kamala Harris on one side, and you know who on the other. And this is what made me laugh, because you’re right, the number of ads you see, and I try not to spend that much time on social media, by the way, right? I can, if anybody is like struggling with that issue. We’ll link some resources at the episode show notes on that. But how to break up with your phone is one of them, a book, right? The power of fun. These are both Catherine Price, but I was scrolling last night, and I came across an ad. It was Tim Walz is big happy smiley face, and it was for donations, political donations, and I’ve already been donating, but he got me because he was like, get my What did he call it? Hot dish, award winning hot dish recipe. Do I really want a Midwest casserole? Like, first of all, no, I’m west coast. I’m not really a casserole person. But you know what? I thought this is fun. Actually thought this is fun, and I want to see how it’s delivered. Like, I want to also make sure that, like, they were actually, like, giving you the hot dish recipe. So I donated another 25 bucks and got his hot dish recipe right, and then, and tonight is the VP candidates debate. You know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna make his hot dish recipe and watch the debates. Yes, because guess why it felt fun. That’s why. That’s the only reason I clicked and paid $25 for some silly Midwest casserole that won some award, but it was related to Tim waltz, and it felt fun. 

Daniel Den  31:49

That is incredible. I have not seen that one. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:54

The reason I’m laughing about it is my sister called me at 10pm last night, and she asked me, like about, you know, we were just talking about this week, and I was like, Oh, you’re watching the debate tomorrow. And I told her what I had done, and she goes, I saw that ad, and she was tempted by it too, which made me laugh. I’m like, how many people clicked on this? Because they’re like, Oh, this is fun or funny, or I just want to try it, you know. Yeah, well, that works. It’s like, paying attention. That’s right, yeah.

Daniel Den  32:25

Yeah, yeah. There’s been a few where it’s like, okay, I got it. I gotta see what Obama’s saying, like, or whatever. And it’s like, it’s like, hey, that is the one thing that I remembered yesterday, I was watching YouTube, and then Obama’s talking to me. Whoa, this is new. Oh, man, I’m in the,  so my wife is a feminist, and I’m a feminist as well, and I’m in the unfortunate camp of I used to be a registered Republican, and so every single day, I get both sides blowing up my phone. I get so many and it’s both. It’s like five and five every single 1010, text messages a day, five and five. He split down the middle, half for Trump, half for Harris. And I’m like, okay, only, only 40. What is it? 40 more days? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:29

Yeah, I know. I know, right, that alone is overwhelming, the text messages, the spamming, yeah, but it’s real, and when you slow down to think about the things that vie for your attention, and especially if you’re a parent, which I know you are, you get not only what vies for your attention directly in your work, your emails, your phone, the advertisements, the text messages, blah, blah, blah. Then you get your kids, Mom, Dad. Look at this. I need this. Look at the you know, to mean, like it’s compounded, because you also have kids, unless you are one of the parents that can successfully keep your kids off of digital devices, which I will be honest, I still have not figured out a way entirely to do that. I’ve hidden remotes. I’ve gotten those zippered lock bags, you know, with the codes, and then I screw it up and lock myself out, and I have to cut open the bag in like we’ve done, we’ve done every version of trying to protect the digital devices. But it is a challenge, and that information overload, I think, is compounded if you’re an entrepreneur, your business owner, right? And you’re wearing all the hats and trying to do all of the things and get the right information and make the right decisions. So how do you on that point alone? How do you simplify this for your clients? How do you get them to focus on what really matters? 

Daniel Den  34:57

Yeah, that’s actually so. Out of our nine pillars. But one of the pillars is ideas and influence that it specifically is the pillar that says, hey, like, let’s at least get your marketing message to break through the noise and and grab Heather by the shoulders and say, this is one for you today, Heather and so, yeah, to do that one of the big things. So there’s seven elements that we talk about. I won’t go through all of them today because…

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:28

We won’t go through the paces, but we will also tell them where they can get all this information, but give us some of the highlights right, getting people streamlined, getting them to hone in on something that will break through. Where do you start with, folks?

Daniel Den  35:41

So the boring one is that you have to have your message focused in 2024. This was just like the logical one, but we I say it, and then people still will try to put out scattered brand marketing messages, which means instead of talking about one big idea or a concept, they’ll try to talk about multiple things, or they’ll have multiple calls to action. And so it has to be focused. If you’re going to break through the noise of four to 10,000 ads today, it has to be focused. It also has to be all about your audience, all about their wants, needs and desires. And then, since we’re the X Factor people, it has to have an X factor. It has to have that thing that makes it different. We talk about the concept that different is the new better. I’ll quickly explain what we mean by that, because once you get this, it switches. It literally flips a switch with the way you view marketing and sales.

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:45

So I think it’s hard. I will say that this concept, first of all, feels fun. I know you’re going to make it fun, but I think that feels hard for people like, how am I different? How is what I do different? How and I think in some ways, it feels like, almost like they’re putting something on to be like trying to make it different. You know what I mean, if they don’t already see it? 

Daniel Den  37:07

Yeah, well, a lot of times people already, inherently, they have differences that make a big difference inside of their business, and they just need to highlight those differences that make a difference. One of my favorite examples that I actually share in the book is from Listerine. So in the 1920s Listerine just exploded as a brand. And Listerine, what they did was they were trying to figure out how to advertise it and grow the business. They went and they looked in. They were studying and trying to they were brainstorming like, how do we get our marketing message out there? How do we sell more Listerine? One day, they’re flipping through a medical journal, and they see this interesting term, halitosis, which was basically the medical term for bad breath, yeah. And they said, this is interesting. Halitosis. What if we say that Listerine is the cure for halitosis? Listerine is the cure for brat for bad breath. And they started running commercials, and people were like, Oh, this makes sense. Listerine is the cure for halitosis. Listerine is the cure for bad breath. They did it so well, and this is why this is such a cool story. They did it so well that when their competitors, who also had mouthwashes, tried to say that they were also the cure for bad breath, those competitors inadvertently sold more Listerine because it was embedded in the minds of the American consumer, that the cure for bad breath, the cure for halitosis was Listerine. So this was a perfect example of highlighting a difference. That makes a difference. They highlighted the X Factor. They were the only ones that really started sharing this message with the American people, that they were the cure for bad breath, and they did it so well that they sold like crazy, and their competitors kind of got left behind. And so sometimes we inherently have that difference already, and it’s just a matter of highlighting that big difference. Then conceptually, if we need to fabricate a difference or add things to our products and services to make a difference, that’s okay. I mean, we have nine different pillars of differentiation, and we help people do it all the time. But here’s conceptually why it’s not as hard as you think. The average business owner Heather, if they go to start a business today, they fall into the trap of, I call it the in the box paradox. So inside of their own industry. They look around and they say, Okay, I want to start a law practice too. Heather’s got a law practice. Let me look at everybody else that has a law practice. Let me see what everybody’s doing. And let me start to borrow some ideas. So I might borrow an idea from Heather, I might borrow an idea from the guys that are on the billboards, and I might borrow an idea from the guy that I keep on seeing on the television commercials. And I take all these borrowed ideas and I mix them all up, and I say, This is what my business is going to be about. And they successfully, anybody that does this in whatever industry, whenever they do this, when they fall into this in the box paradox, they successfully end up looking like everybody else in the industry. And I like to use the example an analogy of apples. So everybody in your industry currently, whether it’s law, whether it’s E commerce, whether it’s an info product business, whether you’re a coach, whatever it is that you do, maybe you’re in the home service industry, if you are the type of person who started your business by borrowing a bunch of ideas from everybody else in the industry and mixing them all but up and thinking that you look different. Just know that you look just like everybody else. And I say, you look like a green apple. So imagine everybody in your industry is an apple, and everybody that just picked and choose and borrowed and mix it all up. They ended up, they end up looking like a green apple. So what happens is, too many people in your industry do the same thing. They copy and they borrow ideas from everybody, and they all end up looking like green apples. And then one day, somebody comes along and does something really cool and desirable that their dream customers love, like Heather has done. Heather has an X factor with her podcast, okay? She is helping people with IP protection, and she has a really cool podcast that’s one of Heather’s X factors. And all of a sudden, Heather is still an apple, but because of her really cool X Factor, she is no longer a green apple. She is a distinct red apple that stands out amongst the crowd, where everybody else looks green, but Heather is the red apple because she has done something very cool and different that people love. And now we haven’t spoken previously Heather about how many people you get brought into your world through your podcast, but I know that with all the connections you’ve made, that it is one of the ways, at least, and one of your X factors, and one of the ways that you bring people into a world, and that sets you apart as a red apple amongst a sea of green apples inside of your industry. And that is the concept of the X Factor. And you want multiple of these X Factors, if you can, but even if you only have one, one that really sets you apart, like Heather has done, you can still be that red apple that stands out in the crowd of green apples. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:10

No, it’s a great, I mean, that’s a great, but also simple example, I think, one that people can grasp. And I’m sure you’ve got a bunch of others based on your work with clients, you know, some that are more extreme, some that are just enough of a shift that somebody can stand out. How do you find that it’s challenging for folks to spot this difference themselves? Like do they really end up needing somebody like you to help look at their business and go, look, it’s not this, it’s this. 

Daniel Den  43:39

That’s an interesting question. I’d say that sometimes yes and sometimes no, we attract a lot of people that think differently. Obviously like for the X Factor people, so we inherently attract people that think and do things differently, and they’ve been doing thinking and doing things differently for a while, and sometimes they just don’t have all of their ducks in a row to solidify their positioning inside of their market, as the people that do things differently, and so they just haven’t put their message out there enough, or run the right type of created the right type of social media content, or whatever their messaging is. It shows that they’re different, but it’s not organized, right? Yeah. And then some people, they just, they think that marketing is like, we’re just going to create a banner ad and hope that people buy, right? And then it’s like, okay, we’ve got some work to do, you know? We got some funnels to set up. We’ve got work, but, you know, it’s all there, and we can help you get there and then, once you solidify that positioning, then you go down the path. You grow your business. And you go down that path of becoming that market leader or category king or queen. Green and then sometimes, really like people, they haven’t been doing anything different. They are the green apple. They have. They are a complete copy of everybody else, but they understand that has caused their own price wars and that they have started. They have added to the commoditization that’s going on inside of their market. They understand that, because the bottom line is showing that is what’s happening, and they’ve hit a ceiling in their business. And then they’re like, We need some help. And then it’s like, alright, let’s sit down and let’s strategically work through this and start doing things differently, but differently in a way where you’re still what people want. So if people want the apple, you’re still the apple, right? It’s still what the dream customer wants, but it’s distinctly different, in a way, where it’s like all eyes on you, because you’re that one red apple in your market, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:54

Do you find that you have a favorite kind of problem to solve for your clients? Like, I know you’ve got the nine pillars, you’ve got probably multiple steps within each pillar. Can you highlight for us some of the spots where you either end up spending the most time or are the most fun for you? 

Daniel Den  46:14

Sure. Yeah, you’re really good at this, Heather. You know all the right questions to ask. My favorite pillar is we’ve recognized that in 2024 we are in what we call the age of experience, where information is commoditized, products and services are commoditized. But what people like to do in 2024 with their disposable income is they like to spend their their disposable income on experiences. And what we’ve noticed is…

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:43

A lot. I was just reading an article the other day, like on why Taylor Swift tickets are so high, right? On why, even why just concert tickets in general are so high. And it turns out, just like many other things in the marketplace, it’s demand and supply. People are willing to pay more because so many people want the experience that’s like, a really, like, fresh thing in my mind that I literally just read about.

Daniel Den  47:11

It’s like, once in a lifetime, right? It’s like, whoo. I felt so bad. And my wife’s a Swifty and what was it, I forget which European country it was, where they had the terrorists, Vienna?

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:25

Was it? It was, or was it Australia? She was in Vienna. And then I think Australia might have been next. 

Daniel Den  47:31

Yeah, you’re right, but they had to, like these people. And I felt so bad because like, like, this is what we a lot of times, this is what we live for, right? Like these experience, the experiential aspect of living is like, what like makes us happy, right? And then like a terrorist threat, and then, like, all these people that were that they had tickets, and then, ah, man, there’s such a let down, but flipping that bad experience that happened, like looking to the bright side, this is an opportunity for all of us to add experience to the sale of our products and services. And so we have noticed, and we’ve studied how well the experiential aspect of when you add that to your to in to your business, how much it increases the bottom line. We have understood things to the point where it says, The more experience that you add, the more money you make, and the more you know, word of mouth you have, and it’s a differentiator, it’s an X factor that cannot actually be copied, meaning that if I tried to copy your business, Heather, and I’m going to go, I’m going to go study law, and I’m going to protect People with IP, because I’ve been through an IP battle myself and I’m just going to be a bad guy and just try to copy your business like word for word, the experience people have with me, 41 year old Daniel Den is never going to be the same of the experience that they have with Heather Pearce Campbell, and so it is a differentiator that is undeniable, and as long as you’re creating great customer experiences, it’s an X factor that will stick with you, and when people love it, it’s going to create more and more and more business, and if people don’t love it, then that could be the bottleneck that’s holding your business growth back. So that is actually ends up being our favorite thing. We actually have an entire event that we invite our students to when they’re in some of our programs called Magic where we like, we’ll do like backstage universal tours. And I want to do a magic event one day in Vegas and do like the the backstage like, well, you used to be able to use Zappos. I don’t think they do Zappos anymore, but they do like Caesar’s Palace backstage, that backstage tours and stuff, and you get to learn about all the magic that goes behind creating those amazing experiences that get people to spend a lot more money there, but they would normally spend because people love a great experience. And so when I went to write this book, I almost launched this as a normal book, and then I was like, well, we’re the X Factor people. We gotta do things different. And then it was just a very logical thing to do, is to add the experiential aspect to the book. And I had a friend of mine. I said, Okay, I got this idea before I launched the book, maybe I turn it into this experience. And he said, Do you think it will double conversion rates? And then I sat there with everything that I know, and I’m like, You know what I think it actually would? And then he’s like, Well, then you have to do it. I’m like, dang it looks like I got my work cut out for.

Heather Pearce Campbell  51:18

Darn it. I know. And I’m really tempted to show people the inside. I won’t, but I will say, if you want to walk yourself through an experience, and I know Daniel, you can share more about where people can get this but like inside, you’ve got all these envelopes, you’ve got, like, some fun little things to help you along your path. It’s very different than a typical just read a book experience. Even the books that like send you places you know, the books that like you get to the end of the chapter and they like send you to a video, right? That’s like version one of like adding a little bit of experience to a book, whether it’s a tutorial or go get this resource, or whatever. This is next level. And it is super fun. And I also, I know we mentioned his name, Mark Stern at the beginning, I will link to the custom box agency as well that helped you actually bring this to life, because just so fun. And obviously you guys are two individuals who really love what you’re doing. And it shows, right?

Daniel Den  52:20

Yeah, when, when I learned that Mark was doing the boxes, I was like, because, because he used to just be helping people with, like, online summits and stuff, and then he started telling me that he’s doing these boxes. I’m like, wow, customer experience. Age of experience.

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:35

Totally. I know. Well, it was funny when I asked you, like, Who did your box? And you’re like, Oh, they’re in Austin, Texas. I’m like, ding, ding, ding. I know who this is. Not that there can’t be more than one in Austin, but I assumed. And then I was, well…

Daniel Den  52:49

I mean, yeah, that would be interesting. But yeah, we’ve had a lot of people that have added experiences to whatever they’re doing. And, you know, there’s lots of different ways to do it. You don’t have to take people on, you know, Caesar’s Palace backstage tours in order to create an experience. There’s lots of simple ways to do it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  53:13

Can you give some examples of some client ahas where they were, like, stuck, like, how do I make this more of an experience that you helped them, you know, come up with an idea or two?

Daniel Den  53:23

Yeah, on the experiential aspect of things as one of my favorite examples, I actually share the story of this guy. His name’s Christiano Zaneta, and I share his example in the book he was struggling with his gym. He was not making money, he was losing money. He was starting to get really depressed. But Christiana was different. Christians, and that was different because he custom made his own Batman suit, and he, for many years, was doing volunteer work in hospitals, and he would go visit children that had cancer and brighten their day. And, you know, helped some of them have great days, and helped help some of them have faith that they could get through what they were battling. But he was struggling. He started work, he came to us and Pedro was so impressed with what he was doing. He was like, Dude, we’re just going to, like, help you for free. And so we let him, he’s like, the only person we ever led into one of our mentoring groups for free, actually, just because it was so cool what he was doing. And so we started helping him. He created inside of his gyms, like this. Superhero Training as it’s, it’s similar to like, similar to cross CrossFit, but like, you know, you would have walls and like, so, you know, think American Ninja Warrior totally.

Heather Pearce Campbell  55:13

That’s exactly what I was thinking about.

Daniel Den  55:15

American Ninja. Well, it’s a mix of that and a mix of and, and people knew that he did the Batman thing as as part of his charity work. And this is down in Brazil, and what he became so well known that he was actually given permission to call himself the Batman of Brazil, so he still has the right to call himself the Batman of Brazil, just because of the impact that that he’s had on so many people’s lives. So he is known as the Batman of Brazil. And so he started teaching. He started doing this inside of his gyms. Long story short, his gym became uber successful, and he eventually sold the gym, and he started doing speaking engagements and and he now is, is paid as a full time speaker, and still does the charity work on the side. And he spoke at one of our events, and he rode his bat cycle, which is decked out as well. Like, super cool. He rode it up on the stage. And so, like, and people were just blown away. And I mean, this is like, the full get up, like, like, who? Like, he looks like, he just stepped off of the movie set. And so yeah, now he gets paid all the time to go and speak all around the world and, yeah, he’s got tons of inspiring stories, and it’s an experience, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  56:55

Well, and how totally I was going to say, and how fun for him to kind of add this element and flavor that sounds like completely reshaped his business.

Daniel Den  57:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he’s probably my favorite example of the experiential aspect. I mean, we’ve had a lot of people that, you know, like, you know, one of the really cool ones from one of our students. She owned a bakery, and she realized that nobody in the area had a drive through for their bakery. So there were other bakeries around, but she would have moms all the way, all the time, come into the bakery, and they were like dragging their kids in, and, you know, they were grabbing something for dinner, and she decided to add a drive through to her bakery. And she did it, like, a year before the pandemic, and people just absolutely loved it. And then during the pandemic, like she had, like.

Heather Pearce Campbell  57:55

I bet it saved her business, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Daniel Den  57:59

It was crazy. It. So, if you’ve ever been like to Chick Fil A, and they’ve got like 50 cars in the in the drive through, like she did that for her bakery, yeah, which is amazing, absolutely insane. So in that, in that case, the experiential aspect was simply adding a drive through, and that made, that was the big difference that made a difference for her, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  58:22

Making it like, somehow, just more accessible. But that could, I mean, like you described the mom and dragging kids in. Oh my gosh, I will tell you that, like, literally, one of my least favorite things ever as a mom is taking one of my children, I won’t say who, to the grocery store, worst ever, like I leave feeling like I left half my brain in the store, and where’s my kid, and I didn’t even get everything that I needed. You know, just total chaos, 100% chaos. So, yeah, if somebody could have solved that problem for me with some magical grocery store, I will tell you I would have been there, like, every week. 

Daniel Den  59:03

Yeah, yeah. And I’m saying that it’s out loud. I’m like, why don’t grocery stores have drive throughs?

Heather Pearce Campbell  59:12

Well, and I was just talking with the guests before you about the silver lining of COVID. How many restaurants suddenly added an online ordering system? How many grocery stores did suddenly, you know, partner with Instacart or create order in advance, types of things that still exist, right? So there are some of those that are just born out of necessity. But like, if you’re ahead of the curve, you thought about that already and did something to meet that need, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super fun.

Daniel Den  59:45

There’s so many different ways to do it. And yeah, the experience you provide Heather is always going to be the different than the experience that your competitors provide. So it’s one of those X Factors that’s like, I can talk about it all day. We can come up with ideas all day. And it’s just one of our nine pillars is the Age of experience, but it’s what, conceptually, what we do is we help people stack those differences. And so if it’s like, you’ve got the drive through, and then, like, you’re always adding the extra treat in the bag, and then there’s all these different things that you’re doing, and then you still have online ordering.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:00:24

And then, all right, think about like, the pup cup at Starbucks, right? You know, like, fun little things that people remember, or they’re like, Oh yeah, I’m out with my dog. You know, it is crazy what people do that’s so fun, well, and I’m looking forward to getting to know the rest of your nine pillars. I can tell that there’s a lot in there out of respect for your time. I want to first of all tell you how much fun it’s been to have you here and talk about some of this stuff. And I know it’s just like the tip of the iceberg for folks that are like, huh, I gotta check out Daniel and what he’s up to and this whole experiential thing and how I make marketing more fun and become the king or queen of my industry. Where, first of all, where are you online? Are you on socials? Where would you direct people to?

Daniel Den  1:01:14

Yeah, usually I just tell people, Hey, let’s start the conversation by grabbing one of the book, box experiences that’s available at bigideasbox.com, bigideasbox.com people connect with me usually after they grab a copy, which is actually free plus shipping. Yeah, you just pay shipping and handling, and I should ship you the whole thing. Yeah, that’s like, and then then, usually sometimes people, you know, schedule a strategy session with me afterwards. And then lots of times people connect with me on Facebook. I’m just the oldest millennial possible, at age 41 and so I just like, I cannot, yeah, I’ll connect on LinkedIn if you want to connect on LinkedIn. But I just really, I don’t know, I’m just a loser that hangs out on Facebook all the time still.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:02:11

Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. And that’s okay. I The funny thing is, watching trends come and go, like, Facebook was not the place to be for a while, and then suddenly people’s Facebook pages started getting a lot more traffic. So you know, if it’s still the place to be and it works, that’s great. So we’ll drop your Facebook link over there as well. Folks, you know where the show notes page is, hop over to legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast, we will have Daniel Den episode there. Look for his name, Daniel. We will share not only the link to your main website, but also your bigideasbox.com which is super fun. People should definitely start there. I highly recommend even just for the training experience of going through that box and the book, like, go get it and see what ideas come from that. But then, Daniel, what are the ways that you work with people? You mentioned, people can sometimes show up for consultation. What other ways do you help people get this all figured out?

Daniel Den  1:03:13

Yeah, yeah. So we have our X Factor Strategy Group, and that’s where we hang out with you for an entire year, and you get multiple ones on one on ones with me, and we have a couple of events for our members every single year, but yeah, you get invitations to that one. It’s a funnel. It’s a marketing funnel. Ah, so you learn. You end up learning about all that if you decide to grab one of the boxes, perfect.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:03:47

Got it, excellent. So start your journey there, folks. We will share that again in the show notes link. Daniel, so great to have you. I so appreciate that. First of all, the fun that we’ve had, but some of the insights that people are going to get by joining us today. What we’ve covered a lot, but what would you like to leave people with today? Like final step, final quote, what is it?

Daniel Den  1:04:10

Sure 100% so different is the new better? I actually forgot to explain why. So here’s the quick why different is the new better? Because lots of times when you ask somebody why they like something so much, they end up just explaining how it’s different. And so you say, why is that? Why are these donuts? Why is Voodoo Donuts better than Krispy Kreme, okay, well, because they do this different, and this is and so they equate being different with being better. We naturally because we’re addicted to novelty. As humans, we love new things. You know, people wait in line for the iPhone 16, and they’re on their iPhone 15 while they’re waiting in line to go grab the new iPhone 16. We just love new. We love novel. We love things that are different in a way that delight and so different is the new better because it it used to just be about trying to be better, like better quality. But in 2024 quality is expected. If you don’t at least have quality, then you know you’re not going to grow in 2024 in the 70s, you could get away with not having the best quality at times, right? But in 2024, you have to at least have quality. And then it comes down to the differences, so different as the new better.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:05:50

I love that. Well, and it’s good. I love that explanation, though, of the way that we think and how we describe something, you know, as a quick aside, years ago, I had to help my sister find a divorce attorney, right? And we had to, I spent literally 24 hours, like around the clock trying to help her get connected to the right one, and sat through interviews and blah, blah, blah. And the one guy that we ended up hiring, that she ended up hiring, he said to her, and many of them presented things the same. Like, yeah, courts are looking at equity. They want things as much as possibly be balanced between the parties, blah, blah, blah. But he said, I’m really good at dealing with toxic spouses, and I can be the junkyard dog if you need me to be right. And like, even just that simple phrase, I was like, Oh my gosh. Even that made me feel so much better about having somebody on her side who might need to deal with some tough stuff, and then one of the other from an experiential standpoint. And this just came to me after her first hearing, which is really stressful to get ready for if you’re going through any kind of marital litigation period, right? But spousal children, stuff like so rough and so she probably hadn’t eaten. I’m guessing we all felt sick to our stomachs. I was there with her, you know, and we’re just making our way through this initial hearing, and everybody’s a little stressed out. He does his thing, but he sits down and he pulls a payday candy bar out of his pocket and gives it to her. And I just remember like that once, it kind of almost a celebratory act of like, you made it, we did it. You’re good. Take care of yours. I just remember being like, I don’t know any other attorneys who stash candy bars in their pockets almost like a self care gesture for their client. You know what? I mean, it was so great. But, like, those are that instance.

Daniel Den  1:07:48

Pay day, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:07:50

Totally. It was so perfect. And it’s like packed full of peanuts. You’re not just getting sugar. Anyways, I know different is the new better, and I love that as an ending point, Daniel, thank you for going over time with us today. I so appreciate you. I’m really looking forward to bringing some folks into your circle. 

Daniel Den  1:08:07

Thank you so much, Heather, this is why people love Guts, Grit and Great Business®, the podcast.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:08:13

I paid him to say that, just kidding. 

Daniel Den  1:08:15

Legal Website Warrior.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:08:18

I love it all right. Signing off, folks.

GGGB Outro  1:08:21

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.