With Angie Colee, a business mentor, marketing strategist, and launch expert known for empowering creative entrepreneurs to break the mold and build businesses that truly reflect who they are. With a philosophy that people, not just profits, are the backbone of any business, Angie teaches her clients to harness creativity as a valuable asset and develop business skills with confidence, all without compromising their authenticity. Over her extensive career, she’s consulted for top brands like Jeff Walker’s Product Launch Formula (PLF), MasterClass, Lowe’s, and Robert Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad brand, guiding them to implement high-impact sales strategies that produce results. Her unique approach is about uncovering hidden revenue opportunities that don’t require excessive time or resources, allowing her clients to scale sustainably.

Angie’s expertise is backed by a Master’s in Entertainment Industry Management from Carnegie Mellon University, blending business acumen with creative insight to turn innovative ideas into profitable ventures. Her podcast, Permission to Kick Ass, is a platform for freelancers and entrepreneurs who refuse to follow the status quo, offering inspiration to build businesses that fit their lives. When Angie isn’t consulting or recording episodes, she’s on the road as a full-time digital nomad, traveling with her cats, Stella and Ollie. Always on the hunt for local food, quirky adventures, and out-of-the-box experiences, Angie brings the same energy and curiosity to her travels as she does to her business.

Join our conversation with Angie as she shares hard-won insights into the challenges of entrepreneurship, from battling self-doubt and imposter syndrome to overcoming the relentless pressure to innovate. Angie opens up about the grit required to share personal stories, especially in the intellectual property space, and the vulnerability of letting go of how others interpret them. Through these raw and relatable discussions, she encourages entrepreneurs to embrace their authentic selves, take calculated risks, and trust their own intuition. Tune in to get empowering stories and actionable advice on navigating the highs and lows of building a business that feels right for you.

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Takeaways & quotes you don’t want to miss from this episode:

• The power of sharing your story.
• Facing imposter syndrome as a part of growth.
• How do you embrace risk-taking as an entrepreneur?
• Building a business with authenticity and personality.
• What’s next and necessary in making business decisions?

“It’s not your responsibility to control how somebody receives the art… Your job is to put the art out there in the world and give them something to react to.”

-Angie Colee

Check out these highlights:

• 05:13 Why is telling personal stories crucial in building connection and business?
• 16:34 Angie shares her background and journey to entrepreneurship.
• 22:04 How Angie’s risk-taking personality influences her business choices…
• 43:38 Angie’s advice on how to view growth and avoid comparing oneself to others.
• 46:56 Hear Angie’s final takeaway for the listeners…

How to get in touch with Angie on Social Media:

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below:

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®…

Angie Colee  00:04

The simplest way that I could put it is, I’m an overachiever. I think a lot of entrepreneurs are, and I can’t tell you how many times I have looked ahead at everything left that I had to do. And you’re a loser. You’re a failure. Why can’t you get it together? Oh my god, this is you should be so much further than you are. Look at so and so that I forget to turn around and look behind me at all the people that are doing the same thing about me, like they’re behind me and they’re going look at where Angie is, oh my god, like you have to remind yourself how far you’ve come when you’re looking at how far you have left to go.

GGGB Intro  00:37

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:05

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving online information entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I’m super excited to welcome Angie Colee today. Welcome Angie.

Angie Colee  01:29

Hi, thanks for having me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:31

Oh, of course. And Happy Tuesday. It’s actually a spring day in Seattle, which feels kind of rare, but I don’t know whether I’ve got like, sinusy stuff from spring, so I apologize in advance if I have any little sniffles. I’ve been like trying to figure out are allergies underway. Still feels like a little early. I’m joking about that, right? Winter was forever. We’re ready for the spring, but super happy to have you today. I know Angie. You are tuning in from Texas, Houston, Texas, that’s right.

Angie Colee  02:05

One of the allergen capitals of the world. So trust me, I know how you feel, and I’m all hyped up on sex.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:11

Oh my gosh. I didn’t know that about Texas. Interesting! Allergen capitals of the world. I met just because of the hot and dry is that it like pollen. 

Angie Colee  02:21

I might be exaggerating a little bit, you know, storytellers license, but I do. I feel like I read an article recently that talked about, like, the biggest allergen cities in the US and Houston was definitely up there in like the top 10 or top 20. And I think it’s a combination of, like, we’re so close to the Gulf of Mexico. So it is a super humid environment here, as well as hot. And also, we are in the forests of East Texas. So there’s a lot of swamps, there’s a lot of forests, there’s a lot of ocean air. So it’s like the perfect storm.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:54

Oh yeah, yeah. Forest comes. I know pollens, all the pollens. Yeah. Well, super fun to connect. Let’s get you introduced. So for folks that don’t know, Angie and I am trying to remember how you and I first connected. It was a mutual introduction of some kind. I know that we’ll figure it out. If somebody who’s been on the podcast introduced us, I’ll be sure to drop a link to their interview as well. So for those of you that don’t know Angie, Angie is a business mentor for rule breakers and rebels. And if you haven’t seen Angie, she’s sitting in front of me with like, purple roots and some red hair in the back, like we were just doing all the talk about color. And I love it. She believes creativity is one of the most valuable assets on the planet. I agree. That business skills can be learned by anyone, and that people, not profits or processes, are the most important part of business. Her mission is to help you grow your business with more confidence and less stress, without becoming a completely different person or losing your edge. Angie has a Master’s degree from Carnegie Mellon and has consulted with and run creative teams for Jeff Walker’s Product Launch Formula, MasterClass, Lowe’s, Copy Chief, OrzyMedia, and Robert Kiyosaki’s Rich Dad brand. When she’s not writing or publishing new episodes of her podcast, Permission to Kick Ass, you’ll find her on the road living as a full-time digital nomad with her cats Stella and Ollie. That’s a fun way to end a bio, digital nomad with a couple cats. That’s so fascinating. Well, welcome Angie.

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:54

Why, thank you. It’s always crazy to listen to your bio being read out loud, right? We try and write these things to be as impressive as possible, and then I sit there and listen to it and go, Okay, I’m pretty dang impressive, aren’t?

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:48

I love my bio. Well, that’s good. That’s how we should feel about our bio, right?

Angie Colee  04:54

It is exactly how we should feel.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:56

Well, especially when we’re able to muster up an interesting one, right? Because we get little too close to our own stories, and so when there’s a version that we can tell that’s true and also helps us highlight some of the, you know, fun and interesting things, it’s it’s a good bio. I like it. 

Angie Colee  05:13

Well, thank you. It’s so funny that you mentioned that, like, we get so close to our own stories, because that’s what I’ve been working on lately with all of my clients, and I’ve discovered a lot of folks in this, the intellectual property space, their coaches, their authors, their speakers, they’re the face of the brand, right? And are building a platform they struggle with telling their own stories, especially women like well, but everybody else has got a story like this. There’s nothing really special. There’s nothing really unique. And I’m like, say this story, this is what makes people think that you’re freaking awesome. You need to say it. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  05:45

I think it’s hard for us to tell our own stories, and I think it’s hard for us to tell the parts that seem either particularly relevant or poignant, you know, to our audience, to somebody else, in a way that we’re comfortable with. Right? A lot of us don’t tell our stories.

Angie Colee  06:04

I’m coming fresh off a small viral video series where I shared a very personal story, and trust me, I sat on that for the better part of four months. I wrote it initially for Huffington Post, and then their editor in chief came back to me like, we’d like to translate this into videos, if you’re open to recording it, and we’ll share the story on our social media profiles. And I’m like, first of all, Huffington Post, yes. And then after I said yes, I was like, wait, no. Even with me telling the story direct to camera, I know that there are people that are going to judge me. They’re going to ask me questions, they’re going to think I’m hiding stuff. There’s going to be all of these accusations of people thinking that they know me from a couple of minutes of video. And sure enough, that actually happens. And I don’t know what came over me, but I just kind of took on this idea of, well, these people are they hate folks who own unicorns. And the good news for me is I don’t actually own a unicorn, so nothing that they’re saying really applies to me. They’re complaining about stuff that doesn’t exist. And so I was able to look at all of that stuff and be like, cool. I mean, I was there, so you can think whatever you want to about the story and what my motives are behind it, but at the end of the day, I know exactly what happened, and I know what I’m trying to achieve, and somebody’s going to get that, and that’s okay if it’s not you. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:23

Oh, there’s a huge lesson in there, that whole part about releasing, letting go of either how something lands right? And that’s not to say that we shouldn’t be thoughtful about how we tell our stories, but ultimately, we don’t get to control who they land with, how they land if a particular person is turned off by whatever it’s, and I mean, it’s really, actually, I think, a huge benefit of telling our stories is this the right people are going to hear it and go, Oh, yeah, that sounds like a person that I would want to connect with, and somebody else might be like, Oh, that just confirms that they’re not for me, and either way, that serves. 

Angie Colee  08:04

Exactly. Yeah, I heard two great things that this just reminds me of. One was, it’s not your responsibility to control how somebody receives the art, interprets the art, experiences the art. Your job is to put the art out there in the world and give them something to react to, right? And then one of my clients put it brilliantly today. She said, I think we are a mirror to people, and it makes them really deeply uncomfortable, and sometimes that means that they’re going to lash out, they’re going to cut us off, they’re going to judge us unfairly because they see something in us that they don’t like about themselves, and that’s really the part that is making them like raw aggression, right? So I think that’s just even more reason to do it, and it’s hard, right? We’re all humans. We take stuff personally, but as someone that was gleefully in the comments section, because I know how that helps engagement, like talking to the trolls and going, cool, thanks for helping bump me up in the algorithm, right? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:01

Yeah, well, and I think there are parallel lessons, both in terms of the the art that we put out there, right? So whether it’s our work, our descriptions of our services, our podcasts, whatever it is that we are putting out to the world, but also ourselves, if you’re in business, it’s a whole lot of self that you learn to put out there, and show up and it’s also, you know, that human lesson of really releasing any attachment to how somebody perceives you, and just really realizing and also embracing we don’t get to and we don’t need to control any of that.

Angie Colee  09:42

We absolutely don’t. Like one of my Aussie friends describes it as tall poppy syndrome, and I’ve loved that ever since I heard it. And that’s the idea that as a poppy, a beautiful, gorgeous, stunning, colorful flower, if you get too tall, somebody’s going to come along and cut it off to try and maintain the even. Status quo. No, that’s a beautiful, beautiful flower. Grow big, grow tall. Stand out. Be the one that everybody stops to smell, that somebody wants to take home and give to their significant other, because it’s just so freaking beautiful. Don’t be afraid to be a tall poppy. Stand out.

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:18

I love that where in your story, because you obviously have a connection to real rule breakers and rebels. Tell me about where that started for you. What is that a piece of your story? Is it like did you just realize that’s who you connect best with?

Angie Colee  10:35

It is absolutely a piece of my story. Because when I first entered the business realm, I definitely got and I got this throughout my corporate life too, right? They would never let me get away with this kind of hair color in corporate they would definitely ask me to cover my little Bray piercing here. The tattoos are kind of covered right now as we’re talking. But I’ve got big, colorful tattoos on both of my arms and all that was considered unprofessional. Never mind the fact that I was one of the best at the work that I did, and I produced tangible, measurable results in the millions for the companies that I worked for. You don’t look the part. So we’re going to come down on you for that. So I went into all of these business as I was starting to build my freelance reputation. I went into all these things, very buttoned down. Everything is covered. I am not telling story. I’m not being myself, right? I’m told somebody today I felt like I was being very beige, just circling the drain of being super beige. But what happened was I went to an event for copywriters and marketers, and somebody bought me a drink, got a little bit of a buzz going, right? And I still don’t know how it came up, but I wound up telling a story about being in a mosh fight. In my defense, it was self-defense. It’s not like I went looking for a fight. I put an end to it. As my mother said, don’t start no fights, but you better finish them. But of course, afterwards, my ADHD self was like, oh my god, I ruined it. They’re gonna judge me for why did you say that? Oh my god. But then I remembered the reaction to telling that story. It was people literally going, Who is this person? I need to know more about you. They physically leaned in and had such a positive reaction to something, I thought they were going to judge me for that. That really started the unraveling that led us ultimately to permission to kick ass. It was like this idea that they want to work with me because they like me, not this persona that I’m putting out to the world that’s not me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:31

Oh yeah, ding, ding, ding, right. And how many of us learn that lesson in some way that feels like weird or hard or like, Oh my gosh. Here I thought that I didn’t get to be this version of myself, and that’s actually the version that I need to be, and that people need me to be.

Angie Colee  12:51

Yeah, and it was really interesting. And I guess right around the time that I entered into the business space, that’s when, like the mompreneur has become. And I’m not saying any of this with any hint of judgment, right? But there was, like, a certain look super made up. I’ve got it all, I’ve got the kids, I’ve got the business, and I just didn’t feel included in any kind of space, because I’m not the professional suit and tie person. I’m not the Polish mom printer. I’m the person over here. That drops an F bomb, probably too much for her own good, but I can’t help it, because sometimes that word is just the right word, you know?

Heather Pearce Campbell  13:26

If it fits, it fits.

Angie Colee  13:29

And I don’t know where there’s space for me in this business world, because I don’t see anybody else that looks like me. And that was terrifying to figure out how to build a space for myself in a world where nobody else looks like me. And I know that there are a lot of folks out there that feel like that, whether it’s somebody has a, you know, a different gender identity, a different political identity, a different skin color, like there’s a lot of us that don’t feel like we’re very well represented so.

Heather Pearce Campbell  13:54

Totally. Well, and, you know, I think there’s some part of that truly is the human condition. I mean, obviously we can look at societal groups and categorize people, but I think so often people in business generally, at some point and probably earlier than later, is better to tackle that big, tough topic of imposter syndrome. Where do I belong? Who do I need to fit in with? Right? I just think that it’s a really common conversation. And, oh yes, you know, people often just learn to have it at some point in their journey, and the earlier than any of us can have it, the better off we are. 

Angie Colee  14:37

Hmm, absolutely. And you said something really interesting to me, because I’ve had this conversation feel like it’s coming up a lot lately, and I noticed patterns, this idea of belonging and fitting in, which I think are actually two different things. Belonging, I think, is actually what we’re talking about, like being your genuine, authentic self, and finding the people who accept you and like you for who you are, and just being willing to ignore. People that you’re not for because you can’t be for everybody. And if you struggle with that, by the way, here’s a handy trick. Ask yourself if you like everybody, because I guarantee you don’t. So if you don’t like 8 billion people, it’s okay if some of the 8 billion people don’t like you, there you go. But the other idea was, and I wish I could remember the quote, it was something along the lines of, I think it was the opposite of belonging is fitting in, right? If you’re feeling like, yes, that’s exactly what you’re doing, you’re blending into the crowd. You are hiding everything that is special and unique about yourself. And I’m a bit it’s corny, it’s corny, but I’m a big fan of reminding people that, do you know how many things had to line up just perfectly for us to be right here, right now, talking on this zoom call for somebody to be listening to us whenever they happen to hear this. We’re talking about billions upon billions upon billions of choices and accidents and happenstance and things lining up just perfectly for us to be here. Is that not a freaking miracle?

Heather Pearce Campbell  15:57

Oh, it is. Yeah. I mean, when you think about anybody really that crosses your path and all of the things that led somebody to being in that moment at that time, right? So true, which also makes life super fun, you know, super fun and super interesting. So I’d love to go back in time a little ways though, to hear about your own roots, like, why entrepreneurship, why business, why you know, and then how that has evolved into the work that you do now, and where you spend a lot of your time helping your clients.

Angie Colee  16:34

That’s a good one to unpack. Well, I think it started because I never I would find these jobs and they would be fun for a while, and then kind of corporate politics would take over, or there was no challenge. And I’m somebody that thrives in the novelty, right? I need something new. I need something interesting. I need something stimulating. If I get into too much of a routine, I want to set things on fire like…

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:57

I mean, there’s probably a lot of entrepreneurs that relate to that.

Angie Colee  17:01

Yeah, and I had found what I thought was my forever gig after I got my master’s degree, I wanted to be in TV development. I mean, talk about exciting going out there and constantly finding different shows and bringing them to the network and developing them into the brand, like helping discover new writers and new talent that was fascinating to me. And I love television, and I love movies, and I love the power of a story. And then I got laid off from the Oprah Winfrey Network right before it launched, and I found myself in a bit of a jam, right? And for I’m about to lose my apartment. I’m running out of money. I’m a broke recent grad student, no leads. I’m doing everything I can. I’m taking meetings, I’m reaching out to people. I’m networking my fanny off, right? Nothing is working, not even the temp jobs. And for some reason, one day, in the depths of my despair, my brain went, Hey, do you remember somebody told you about a book this one time it’s called, it was the well-fed writer, right? You should go get that. And this is in 2010 before Amazon really took off, right? They were around, but they weren’t what they are. Now, I had to drive my broke self in Los Angeles through traffic to Barnes and Noble and pick up a copy of this book, The well fed writer, which I read in the course of an afternoon. And it was basically about copywriting and marketing, and that was the first thing that made it make sense to me, that was like, oh, somebody has to write that. And considering I wanted to be in TV and like screenwriting and stuff like that, I feel like I could write that. That makes sense to me. Cool. I’m going to throw everything I have into this. So I did badly, not surprisingly, because I don’t know much about copywriting, and I don’t know much about business at this point, and I made every mistake in the book, and I failed and I failed and I failed. And eventually the feast or famine roller coaster got to be too much. And somehow I had this insight of, I wonder if I could get paid to do this, like, if I could pay somebody to teach me, or if I could get paid to learn copywriting and get really good at that, I bet then I could find somebody that could help me with the business side, because, like, I’m trying to solve too many problems at once. So I turned in hundreds and hundreds of applications and ultimately landed a junior copywriter role, even with, like, my diverse background of firefighting, selling credit cards on the floor of Home Depot, being a math tutor, waiting tables, like I stitched all that together in a way that got me the job, which was great, yeah, and just but I loved copywriting, and then the same problem happens, that like I’m getting bored, there’s a routine, there’s not enough of a challenge. So eventually I did hire that business mentor and leave my job and start my own thing, and have been doing that since roughly 2017. Yeah,

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:39

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Heather Pearce Campbell  21:22

You do have quite a diverse mix in your background, like hearing the firefighting part, right? There’s a lot of people that wouldn’t sign up for that level of risk, right? And I think one of the things that I love so much about entrepreneurs, about small business owners, about people that are like, you know, I’m so committed to this path of what I want to create, I’m really, I’m willing to take on that risk, right? There’s a certain element that that is just risky about being in business, about starting your own business, about continuing to pursue your idea. You think that’s always been there. Where did you notice that showing up for you in your life, like?

Angie Colee  22:04

Being a little bit of a risk taker?

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:06

that element of risk? Yeah, that element of risk.

Angie Colee  22:09

Always been a little bit of an element of risk. Like, I am a roller coaster fiend. That is one of the people, the things that I tell people like, no, seriously, I rode the Mako at SeaWorld in Orlando five times in a row because I could and I wanted to. That’s the kind of person I am. I love checking out different roller coasters. I’ve jumped off bridges. My ultimate goal is to go skydiving in multiple places someday. So I’ve always had a little bit of risk. And then if I think back, you know, I was always the kid in school. You remember those like plastic key chains that were popular in the 90s, that you were weaving out of string, the alternating colors and stuff like that. Since I’m very ADHD and I was usually making those things so that I could pay attention in class. This is before smartphones, kids. I was selling those things, and I was selling baked goods, and of course, my mom bought all my supplies. So I have no idea what the profit margin was, but I sure felt rich with the like, $10 in key chains I sold.

Heather Pearce Campbell  23:05

I remember those, and I’m laughing, because literally, just a few weeks ago we saw that. It’s kind of that, like, plastic string, right? And my son, Oh, totally. Like, there are those, those key chain making kits that you can get. And my son, we got one for him, and he learned how to do it. Made the whole thing, I know, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like, such a throwback to my childhood as well.

Angie Colee  23:31

That’s funny. Oh, that’s so great.

Heather Pearce Campbell  23:34

That’s funny. So I mean, you relate, because even the risk takers, Rule Breakers you know, in your bio, it’s like, you know, not everybody specializes with that community, and not everybody has that risky streak as part of their personality, right?

Angie Colee  23:53

And there are folks that they feel drawn to that, but they feel like it’s not okay, whether that’s the message that they’ve gotten from society around them, or they’ve tried to be a tall poppy and gotten cut and cut down a couple times before. Like it’s never comfortable to put yourself out there again after facing a setback. But I think that’s kind of the risk that you talk about to be true to yourself, you have to risk putting it out there again and again and again. I was just talking with a business buddy about the very real fear of cancel culture. And I say that, like in the most non partisan way that I can just the human way, that if you say something offensive, even with the purest intent, that there could be a small segment of people that overreact so hard that they make it their mission to take you down. Right? That’s scary. That’s so scary, and yet you still have to be willing to put yourself but recover. Do the healing? Take a break, right? Take some time. I’m not saying stay there and fight, but you have to be willing to put yourself out there again, otherwise they win. Yeah.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:59

Yeah, no, totally. It’s anybody who is taking those risks, whether as a leader of a business, whether it’s a leader in a community. You know, there’s so many scenarios where we get choices in life, of like, are we going to do this because it involves some amount of publicity, or even on a small scale, right? Just stepping out of your comfort zone, and I feel like it’s so important for us to make those choices and do those things, even when they’re risky, because those are also the circumstances that are going to help us grow. They’re going to help us develop better communication, stronger boundaries, better people awareness, right? There’s so many lessons in there, so many lessons.

Angie Colee  25:46

And trusting our own intuition, which is so important in business, so important. I didn’t I mean that relates to the story of how we got from me being in a button down jacket to the bright red and purple hair that you see now is I didn’t trust myself for a long time. I thought everybody knew better than me because they had successful businesses. So I spent a lot of years bouncing back and forth doing what other people told me, because I was like, okay, eventually this is all going to make sense. They’re successful. I need to do it their way for a little while, until I get this. You know, I think I would be a lot further if I had actually been like that doesn’t make any sense to me, but I appreciate that you’re trying to help me. I’m going to go this way instead, because that’s what my gut is telling me to do.

Heather Pearce Campbell  26:26

Yes, yes, well, and I think there is just a certain amount of that. That’s part of the learning, the business building journey, right? Learning to rely on that own internal compass, that internal advice. And ultimately, you realize there is no one pathway through. There is no one you know method for doing a certain thing in business or doing it well. I mean, certainly there are some principles that you can study that will help you build a better business, stronger, faster, etc. But the joy, the challenge, the uniqueness, especially when you’re talking about small business, is that they heavily rely on the individual at the top, and there’s a lot of variation there, which is also why there’s, there’s no one way to make it through.

Angie Colee  27:18

Yep, I’m so glad that I’m 5,000% with you on that, because feel like I’m gonna blame marketers for a second, even though I am one, I’ll take my part in this, right? I think marketers are responsible for this idea that a lot of entrepreneurs get in their head, that like I’m just missing the one thing. And when I find the one thing, it will all click into place and it will all be smooth. There is no one thing. The reason why it’s a one thing is it’s the one thing that worked for them. Multiply that by the 1000s of marketing leaders all selling their one thing, and you start to see there are 1000s of solutions to any potential problem. Why isn’t yours as good as that? Marketing Leaders?

Heather Pearce Campbell  27:56

Yeah, no, it’s true. There are so many potential avenues for success, for solutions, etc. And it can be hard for people not to listen to the marketplace and not, you know, and sometimes we just learn by making that mistake of trying this thing and being like, Well, that didn’t work. You know, that’s not the right fit for my business.

Angie Colee  28:18

And I’m like, I’m definitely not saying that if you decide to follow your gut, you’re not going to make any mistakes and you’re not going to fail, because that’s just as likely right as trying somebody else’s formula. It’s not the quite fit for you, but it’s simultaneously the beautiful thing and also the most terrifying thing about being a business owner is that there are hundreds or 1000s of solutions to any given problem. Which one do I choose? I like to try. I challenge myself. Some days I succeed. Some days I don’t. But I try to challenge myself to think, what do I get to do? What do I get to choose? How am I going to solve this? Can I make this fun instead of terrifying, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:52

Well, and a lot of even on the legal side, I end up doing a lot of helping my clients look at other areas of their business, because so often legal problems are coming up because they’ve actually got a marketing problem, they’ve actually got a client enrollment problem, they actually have a systems problem, right? So we end up looking in a lot of different parts of business, but you know, ultimately, the question that I ask clients, and that you know, when you’re looking at all the shiny objects in the marketplace about what might help your business make progress next, it’s like, what is the next? Right but necessary decisions. So often we’re making unnecessary decisions. It might be the right decision, but it might be a couple years down the road the right decision, what’s necessary right now that is also the next right decision, right? And so I think really keeping your focus on the literal next step, nothing to say that future forecasting and doing business planning that is looking you know, much farther out is an essential. But I think that’s where people, especially those that are prone to like looking all the places and trying all the things, just having a much narrower focus can help them make better. 

Angie Colee  28:53

Oh yeah, my business mentor. I love him, and it’s so frustrating to hear this, because he’s absolutely right. But we love the novelty, right? As I talked about earlier, if it’s not new and interesting, I’m going to burn it down. But I know it works, because I’ve helped people use the same simple systems before, right? He goes, making money is boring. Making a lot of money is super boring. And it’s that pursuit of novelty, of like constantly feeling like the next solution is going to be the one, instead of just doing the hard work, right? If you need money, there is one solution, and that is, start reaching out to people and making offers, right? And that can break down in hundreds of different ways, because it’s different people, different offers, et cetera, et cetera, right? But that’s the one solution. Start reaching out and making offers. And if you’re in a comfortable place, revenue wise, and you’re looking to expand or automate or streamline or systemize now you’re talking about building that inbound machine, which I think a lot of people start with, and they’re not ready for, and so they’re like, self financing the long term goal. Go get that money. People do it every day by buying junk and selling it at a flea market. So why can’t you just make something and sell it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:21

Yeah, those basics of having an offer for sale and also mastering that piece of how you sell it. Because, I think particularly for small businesses, getting that right and also creating a system that works for, you know, not only the the owner or the founder’s values, processes, but also desired outcomes. Everybody wants their business to look a certain way, and that’s the other reason why there’s not a one size fits all like, yeah, there might be a lot of ways to do this thing right, but ultimately, if it doesn’t make me feel good about my business or feel good about the way that I’m serving people or feel good about their outcome. Maybe I don’t want to do it that way, like I’m an outlier in the legal world. Yeah, and there’s a big reason that I’m an outlier and that I don’t do things the traditional Wayne is because for years I spent watching how challenging it was for people to navigate that landscape, navigate actually enrolling and getting with the right firm, the right attorney, to get their services right. So it’s oftentimes, the reason you’re building your business differently is because you see something that already is not working in the marketplace and you don’t want to do it that way.

Angie Colee  32:33

Yes, and I guarantee you, I guarantee you, if you see something a gap in the marketplace, or something that you wish was done differently. Someone else out there sees that too, and it might be a micro niche of a niche, right? But you can build a really good living selling to just a couple of 100 people, right? There are people out there that have built million and billion dollar businesses serving a tiny niche that they are. They own it, right? And there’s no competition. So there’s a lot of different ways to do this, different ways. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:05

No, I don’t need a million clients, right? That’s right, like many of us, just need a relatively small number of the right clients. And that’s the other thing that I think allows businesses to be really unique and also be very thoughtful about the way that they’re going about, building their service, building their product, building their messaging, you know, building all the support systems. Where do you find are there, like, some key areas where you find you’re spending a lot of time with your clients? I’d love to hear kind of an overview of, like, who your clients are, what are they up to in the world? What are you working with them on behind the scenes? 

Angie Colee  33:47

I work with a lot of leaders and coaches, especially folks that are in the like, 500,000 to 5 million range. These are the folks that have, like, they’re in the growth mode, and they’re trying to figure out how to stabilize this and make this consistent, right? And they’re often founder brands like personality brands, and that’s what I really love, because then you get to really tap into all of this delicious personality and all of these stories. And the work that I’ve been doing lately, that I freaking love is combining my podcast expertise with the years that I’ve spent leading copy teams and setting strategy, just asking people the right questions to get them to tell the stories that are going to set the marketing strategy. It’s really kind of the opposite of what copywriting has become, where I figure out what your goals are, and then I go into my cave and I come up with a bunch of ideas and come pitch them to you, and, like, we’ve got a lot of back and forth. Nope, I just come straight to the table. Go, cool, you’re planning a launch, all right, we’re going to like, here’s the timeline, here’s the number of emails. Cool. Tell me about your favorite client. Why are you even doing this? What keeps you in this business day after day after day? Tell me about a test. What pisses you off about this industry? I want to know all of this. And then when they get good and ranty or excitable or like laughing and joking, I know we’re on to something. Really, really good, and that’s going somewhere in this sequence.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:03

Yeah, no, I love that. And getting those right stories out so you really live in, like, the story space sounds like…

Angie Colee  35:11

Yes, because I mean, that’s how we have done things as human beings since the dawn of time. It’s how we’ve taught people, it’s how we’ve connected with people, it’s how we’ve gotten people on board with a mission and a society and like, survived together, right? Like stories, it’s timeless. It doesn’t matter how many AIS or cotton gins or printing presses come along stories, they’re still going to be there as long as humans are there.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:35

What do you find being? And I know we’ve probably briefly touched on a few already being some of the biggest blocks to people figuring that out themselves, figuring out the important parts. 

Angie Colee  35:48

One would be that we are not the most objective observers of our own skills and our own qualities. Such a huge shocker, but I remember the first time that I realized that, like, I’m a really good writer, was after I helped a teammate. And, you know, she had been working on this email for like, two weeks, because that’s what they did before copywriters came on board. And so in her mind, right? This is me trying to understand how other people think. In her mind, writing an email is hard. In my mind, writing an email takes five to 10 minutes if I know what I’m doing, who I’m talking to, what I can say, what I can’t say, like, where my pointing them to. And so she’d been struggling with this thing. She asked for my help. We got on a zoom call. She brings up the copy document, and I’m asking her that all the questions I would ask if I had written it from the beginning. And I went, Okay, well, you’ve got the good bones here. Let me change this line. Let me delete this thing. And I made, I think, two changes to this email, and change the entire meaning of it. And she went, what kind of witchcraft like that was sorcery. I just watched you change two things, and I have no idea how you changed the entire meaning of this. And I’m just baffled. And that was the first time I got to see what I do through somebody else’s lens. And it really clicked for me that this is easy for me, so I undervalue it, and I just assume everybody else can do this. So now I need to come up with something that’s even more so, much more special than this, that’s totally unique that nobody else can do. No you know what the uniqueness is? I’m a really good writer, and I am Angie Colee. That’s the uniqueness right there. So you can be a really good lawyer and be Heather, and somebody else could be like a really good, you know, architect and be Sam, right? And that’s the uniqueness that we bring to the story, right there?

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:35

Totally. No, I love that. And I love the reminder that often, you know what it is, is something that does come easy for us, which is why we don’t recognize it, right? Which is why we think, like, oh, other people just must be able to do this also.

Angie Colee  37:54

Oh, yeah, we’ve been conditioned hardcore. It’s not entirely your fault. If you’re listening to this going, oh my god, I missed it. Like, we’ve been conditioned to believe that you only get something through working hard. So it is really, really difficult to turn off that little mechanism in your brain that says, I can’t do this solution right here, because that’s way too easy. That’s way too easy. It can’t possibly work. It can. You know that there are people out there who started ridiculous businesses, like Bubba teeth. Who, like, I don’t know the story of this, so I very well could be talking out of my behind here. But like, who invented Bubba teeth? That was a business. The weird fuzzy like, mullet visors and stuff like, that’s a business. There are people out there doing crazy, crazy, weird, bizarre business ideas all the time, every day. It can’t be that simple. It absolutely can.

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:48

Oh my gosh. My husband was talking the other day. I was with my sister. He was like, when you have to get on a plane, we were talking about plane seats being too small, and I’m tall, my husband’s tall, anyways. And he was like, you know, I want something that, like you can hold on your lap. And he’s like, and you literally just put your face on it and go to sleep. And Ashley was like, Oh, I somebody has made that. And he’s like, you know, you put your hands like that, like, he totally described it. And in two seconds she had something pulled up on Amazon, like, You mean this? And he was like, Yeah, that. And the funny thing is, it I looked at it, and I was like, Ooh, that’s not at all what I had in my mind. Like it almost looked like a cat tower, like it had holes in it, you know, like something that a cat would get in and climb around. But apparently it was like a blow up thing that you literally just lay on, and it has a space for your head and you just, which I imagine for tall people, like the you know, nothing is comfortable about that seat and about, like, where your head goes, so, but there you go, some crazy idea. And there it was.

Angie Colee  39:54

Well, I wish I had that problem as somebody who is my I’m not even exaggerating, my legs. Dang. From most restaurant booths, because I have very tiny legs. I have a very long torso, but very tiny legs. But there was something that you said there that I thought was really, really great, that I wanted to reflect back to, which was, you know, he describes this thing. Somebody says, Oh, I know that. That’s a thing. Let me show you. And you went. I had a totally different idea. Yes, I think so many people who want to start businesses are they’re doing that same thing that I did. I have to have something totally unique. I have to be the Apple iPhone. Have to be the industry disruptor. No, you just have to see a solution out there that you could do a little bit better. Like, what if it works this way instead of that way? And I mean, I’m obviously, I’m not encouraging you to, like, break patents or trademarks or anything, and come up with your own thing. But, you know, often the solution out there is just because that was good enough, not because it’s the best and you could probably create something better.

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:50

No, that’s right. It’s so true, you know. And I think so much of the game of business is just being in the right action, but staying in action, right? People letting themselves get stymied and just not doing a thing versus doing a thing imperfectly. Right? Business is just about taking that next step and doing the next thing. And you’re going to learn a whole bunch along the way,

Angie Colee  41:15

Looking for opportunities everywhere. I mean, like, how many different timers do you have out there? Kitchen timers? Here’s my favorite one, because I’m very ADHD. It’s this little hexagon timer. What it literally effect if I turn it over, it just set the timer to 30 minutes, right there, and I gladly pay for that, because my alternative is to open my phone and set a timer at which point I will lose five hours doing whatever the heck I do whenever that’s so brilliant. There’s an example of a solution that somebody noticed. Well, this timer doesn’t work because I get distracted or it doesn’t meet my needs. Cool. Let me flip this over and start it for 30 minutes and I don’t have to think about it anymore. Sorry.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:54

ADHD, or not, how many people are listening? Are like, Oh my gosh, the number of times my favorite thing that I’ve done this where I go to open my phone, and then you’re like, wait, what was I looking for? And then you got lost doing, you know, eight other things, yeah, oh yeah.

Angie Colee  42:07

I feel like, if I had an affiliate link for this timer, I’ve probably sold like, 100 of them, at least. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:13

Yeah. Well, I love it. Well, I was just gonna say, why don’t you share the link? Because I personally think it needs to go in the show notes. That’s a great timer, and I love it. And for entrepreneurs, like anybody familiar with the What’s that 25 minute system, the Pomodoro Technique, or any of those, right? Where it’s, like, a specific time, but, like, that’s so great, like, literally turn this little cube looking thing over hexagon cube, yep, and I’m willing to bet some poor ADHD soul went, like…

Angie Colee  42:39

These timers don’t work for me. Oh, how do I do this? Okay, cool.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:44

No, it’s so great. So your clients, what are the problems that they’re talking about before they intersect with you? What do they think is the problem?

Angie Colee  42:56

So usually they know that marketing is important. But one of my clients put it this way, she goes, I just don’t want to. I know it’s important. I just don’t want to. I kind of just want to sit here and talk about things for a while and have somebody take everything that I say that’s smart and brilliant and witty and turn it into marketing. And I went, ding, ding, ding. That’s what I do. And like, selfishly, my favorite part of that is being able to reflect people’s awesomeness back at you because, again, you think it’s easy. You don’t realize what’s unique and special about you. So I just get to sit there and go, stop, stop, right there. Did you not hear what you just said? That is freaking brilliant. I think we just need to sit with that for a second. And that is definitely going in your marketing, by the way, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:38

Well, I think you’ve just named it. You’ve just described why marketing feels hard for people. You know it’s like this whole process of essentially telling stories, if not about ourselves, about our business, about why our business is important, about what it can do. You know, why it’s different than the rest in the marketplace, blah, blah, blah, and so often, you know, we’re so close to it, and we don’t see it, and we don’t see the magic and that, I think that’s just a challenging thing for people to get through on their own. 

Angie Colee  44:12

Absolutely. Ggo further faster when you’re going together.

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:16

Oh, totally. 

Angie Colee  44:17

You can absolutely do it alone. It’s gonna take you a lot longer.

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:20

All right, even, I mean, even on the like, you think about even the small ways that when you have formed your circle that helps your business grow. So, for example, in my own circle, like, I’m currently working with a business coach, I’ve also got a CPA that I love. Took years, I will say, to find both those people. But then once you have them even the small parts about like, because you just described this process of reflecting back right? And this is what our team, our advisors, our people that we bring into our circle do for us on a variety of topics, like my CPA, when I’m beating myself up about like, oh, not meeting the. Financial goal, or, you know, having a hard year yet last year, financially, or whatever the case may be, where she’s going. Look, you need to be celebrating that you’ve achieved ABC, XYZ. And it’s a total reframe where it’s like, oh my gosh, this is why I keep you in my life. Is because it’s so easy for us, I think, to get bogged down in the stuff that’s actually not relevant, or be telling ourself a story that you know on a particular topic that we’re not the expert on, right?

Angie Colee  45:28

It’s the beauty of perspective. And like, the simplest way that I could put it is, you know, I’m an overachiever. I think a lot of entrepreneurs are, and I can’t tell you how many times I have looked ahead at everything left that I had to do, and you’re a loser. You’re a failure. Why can’t you get it together? Oh my god, this is you should be so much further than you are. Look at so and so that I forget to turn around and look behind me at all the people that are doing the same thing about me, like they’re behind me and they’re going look at where Angie is. Oh my god, like you have to remind yourself how far you’ve come when you’re looking at how far you have left to go. And I love what you said about that, that like we bring other people to reflect that back at us, to remind us that from time to time, especially when you’re letting thoughts bounce around in between your own ears and that little echo chamber and get really, really crazy and irrational, right? Your perspective is warped, and the people around you that adore you and think that you’re awesome, can show you what it really, really looks like.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:30

No, absolutely. What is it? And I know we’re bumping up against the top of the hour, but if there was something that you wish every whoever’s your audience, right? I don’t know if they’re expert preneurs. It sounds like they’re personal brand builders. You know, there’s a lot of overlap with my audience. There’s every one thing that you wanted everyone to know that you think a lot of people don’t know. What would it be?

Angie Colee  46:56

You are enough. And I know that that doesn’t seem like a business message. But given how many of us spend so much time on personal development just to be able to get out there, you are enough, and what you do matters, and there’s somebody out there that needs your help right now, and you don’t have to do a single thing more to be able to help them. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:17

Oh, it’s so good. I think of how long people actually struggle with imposter syndrome, even people who have reached great heights, you know, it’s like great heights in their career. From anybody’s perspective, it really is like such a twisted part of the human condition, you know?

Angie Colee  47:39

And you know what it is stepping out of your comfort zone. That’s why no single person I’ve met, no matter how far they’ve got like they have super successful 10-11 figure business, huge businesses, right? I’ve met people who still feel like imposters no matter what they’ve built. Because everything is stepping outside of their comfort zone to the next level. Nothing is staying still entirely where you feel comfortable and in control. And every time you meet that discomfort zone, you feel like you have no idea what you’re doing. So like, Hey, welcome to the world. We’re all imposters. Maybe think of was that corny internet thing about like, I am a trickster god. I have everybody fools.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:20

Well, you know, one of the funniest but best lessons early on in my legal career was learning, even from mentors who I respected, who, you know, were very candid about, you know, the work about, about their mindset, like who were willing to talk openly about what they were thinking about a case or an opposing party or whatever, I realized everybody’s winging it right, like everybody’s winging it like we are all just doing the best that we can. And it really is such an important lesson that every stage of growth, every stage of business, it’s just to realize everybody’s doing the same thing, regardless of what level they’re at, you just have to do your best to take the right next step. But, but in addition to not only like, recognize you’re enough, just like, start, do the thing, start the next thing, start the next level, right? Because I think so often the enoughness for that particular thing follows taking the step to do it. That’s just the order. That’s the order that it comes in. 

Angie Colee  49:26

Take the action. Make the offer, make some money, reinvest it in yourself. And on and on we go until we get to where we feel good enough and maybe we’ve achieved a goal. Now we have the wonderful problem of figuring out what comes next. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:39

Yeah, exactly. I love it. So, Angie, where do you show up online? Where do you like for people to connect with you? And I’ve, I’ve had, by the way, some ghost guests say, I don’t like for people to connect with me. Okay, perfect. Share where you are and where you want people to go look you up. 

Angie Colee  49:59

Oh, you can find me just about everywhere except Twitter. I’m not really on Twitter/X or whatever the hell it’s called these days. You can find me as either at Angie Colee or at Permission to Kick Ass. Send me a message. Tell me where you found me. Tell me something that stood out. I love to connect with people. I love to meet new people. Might even invite you to do a call or appear on my podcast. I have a site, permissiontokickass.com if you want to learn more about my mission to help creative folks. Also have a site, angiecolee.com, that talks a lot more about my consulting work, that professional side of me, right and I have a book, also called Permission to Kick Ass, which is the book I wish I had the first time I started my business, because I had no idea what I was doing, and I needed a roadmap, so I wrote one that’s available on Amazon. If you look it up, you should find it fairly easily.

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:47

Awesome. Well, congratulations. First of all, I think that book came out between you and I first connecting.

Angie Colee  50:53

In this podcast, right? So published. What an adventure. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:58

Oh, I bet it is. That’d probably be a whole nother conversation. So right if you’re listening, be sure to pop over to the show notes page. You can find that page, including all of the resources that we’ve just talked about and more at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast, find Angie Colee’s episode, and you’ll find all the great links to our website, to your book. We’ll share all your socials, etc, right there, and that timer you showed us. Oh, yes. So I want to share that too. That’s awesome, Angie. I so appreciate you joining us today. I know that you know, regardless of the phase that people are in in their journey, they’re going to get something out of today’s conversation, because we’re all human, and we all need to hear this stuff. And you know, like you pointed out, at each step, you’re facing the same conversation, just at a new level. Absolutely. I love it. Love it. So great to connect. Look forward to sending some folks your way, and we’ll be in touch.

Angie Colee  52:03

Thank you so much. 

GGGB Outro  52:05

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.