With Efren Delgado, a former FBI Special Agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience, has added author and speaker to his threat assessment and consultation profession. His advanced behavioral studies in graduate school, coupled with specialized training at the FBI unit near Quantico, enriched his expertise in counterintelligence, counterterrorism, and violent civil rights investigations. Through his extensive work combating spies, predators, and tyrants, Efren’s experiences reveal that true strength is found in humility, not oppression—a perspective that informs both his writing and speaking engagements today.

Efren’s career path showcases a deep commitment to public safety and justice, from examining high-level security threats to investigating civil rights abuses. His unique insight into human behavior and resilience in the face of adversity has shaped his professional journey. Now, as a consultant, author, and speaker, Efren continues to inspire others with his philosophy of strength through humility, offering a powerful narrative grounded in years of dedicated service to national security and human rights.

Join our conversation as Efren discusses the importance of understanding human behavior by studying criminals and tyrants, identifying red flags in clients and business dealings, and trusting instincts in potentially dangerous situations. He shares personal experiences with adversity, including childhood trauma and abuse, and highlights the need to develop strong boundaries and recognize toxic bullying in both personal and professional life.

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Takeaways & quotes you don’t want to miss from this episode:

• Overstating abilities and red flags you should watch out for in business interactions.
• The power of intuition and boundaries in personal growth.
• How to choose healthy relationships and prioritize self-care?
• Manipulation and bullying in business and legal systems.
• Why is it important to trust your instincts?

“At the end of the day, I’m saying listen to your instincts and then explore where that’s coming from. So you do back it up with actual substance. But to avoid danger you don’t need to convince anybody—you just get out of it.”

-Efren Delgado

Check out these highlights:

• 16:05 What are the red flags Efren would watch out for his clients?
• 29:37 Efren shares his belief that adversity is a driving force for finding purpose…
• 32:55 Efren introduces the concept of “Association Osmosis”.
• 38:25 How Efren’s childhood experiences with bullies sparked his interest in criminology, psychology, and human behavior.
• 52:24 In his final message, Efren encourages listeners to…

How to get in touch with Efren on Social Media:

You can also contact Efren by visiting his website here.

Special gift to the listeners: If you are human, you are mortal — you have flaws. And your imperfections host many benefits! Efren has a free 5-step guide in an easy-to-read PDF format to Transform your Human Insecurities into Superhuman Strengths today by going to EfrenDelgado.com and clicking the blue link for this FREE download!

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below:

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®…

Efren Delgado  00:04

One mistake a lot of the good guys make your listeners my readers is we try in an effort to be nice, we’ve tried to explain everything but they will twist that on us and take advantage of the good guys. So just make a mental note and then politely bail out so you don’t have to engage. You don’t have to teach lessons to these people who give you red flags. You just have to preserve yourself your goals, your family, your teammate, and go from there.

GGGB Intro  00:35

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:02

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving online information entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I am super excited about our topic and our guest today this is going to be outside of the normal little bit super, super relevant and you’re gonna have so much fun hearing from Efren Delgado. Welcome, Efren.

Efren Delgado  01:38

Hi, thanks for having me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:40

Oh my gosh, we’re gonna have a lot of fun. I could tell based on our first conversation, this is going to be really insightful and folks, stick around because you’re gonna walk away learning a lot about human nature, a bit about psychology, a lot about our guest and we’re going to have a good time. For those of you that don’t know Efren, Efren A. Delgado, a former FBI Special Agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience, has added author and speaker to his threat assessment and consultation profession. His advanced behavioral studies in graduate school and at an FBI specialized unit near Quantico complimented his work experiences in counterintelligence, counterterrorism, and violent civil rights investigations. Efren’s years of examining and combating spies, predators, and tyrants extends beyond criminality, revealing how true strength lies in humility—not oppression.  Efren, I’m so excited to dig in with you today. Welcome.

Efren Delgado  02:50

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it’s kind of intense background, but we’ll bring it back down to earth. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:56

Very different than any other guests we’ve had on today. Yeah, it’s excellent, though. I mean, you come with quite a background. And I imagine just in the nature of this work, like, do you feel like you’ve just had a lifetime studying human behavior? I don’t even know what to describe it like characteristics, signs, signals, communication, everything, right? Just really studying humans.

Efren Delgado  03:30

I think you nailed that. It’s really a lot of indicators that once you understand them, they’re not difficult to to assess. And the bad guys, the bullies, the tyrants of the world, really kind of scream their actual nature. While they lie to you, to your face, their natures are very obvious. And just the kind of make an obvious example the louder somebody is, for whatever reason, even in the context does not reasonably make it seem like okay, they should be allowed, then the opposite is true. So just to dive right in, I think of that guy as criminals. tyrants. Not so nice people. I compare him to chihuahuas barking at the doorbell, because what do they do when the doorbell rings? Several dogs, they just yap, yap, yap. Are they yapping because they’re brave and strong? Not really. They’re yapping because they’re so scared that what might be on the other side and evening. Meanwhile, people in your audience, the risk takers, the ambitious people really striving to live a full live are taking chances. They’re making themselves vulnerable. They’re taking risks. And the bad guys are envious of people who have that actual strength. So I titled the book “The Opposite is True”.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:42

Hmm. Well, you just illustrated a great example. I mean, I think it’s really clear. I was a former owner of a Chihuahua. I called Tanner was his name. I called him my accident. I had a lab Shepherd mix that I adopted actually a month after I got Tanner, and they were quite the combo, but I was raised by a veterinarian. So it was like, there was a little chihuahua in Eastern Washington that in chihuahuas, let’s just be clear are not good fits for Eastern Washington. It’s like agricultural, Coyote area, right? It’s vulnerable. Yeah, very vulnerable. It’s eagles. It’s big birds, like they’re not designed to, to be in eastern Washington. And so I was in Seattle at the time, and I told my sister just bring him over here, all find a home for him in Seattle. Anyways, a few months later, I could not find a home for him. Because every person that came in the door, I was like, I don’t know whether they’re going to be a good dog owner, I don’t know where they’re going. They’re gonna take care of him or not. So I ended up accidentally adopting a chihuahua and a lab Shepherd mix at the same time. But that’s nice. I know, I know. It’s true. They did. And she really mellowed out like pepper was the bigger mellower dog really helped Tanner to mellow out. But I saw times where he was just like you described on high fear alert and barking barking barking. And when you think about that, and extend that analogy to humans, and you know, particularly as I look at my work, and I know that when we first connected, I talked a bit about how frequently inside the legal system and inside just really the world of my clients problems, generally, people are interacting with somebody like that, on the other side, who is a bully or a tyrant, you know, just has bad behaviors going on for whatever reason, or whatever personality problem they have how frequently, those types of people end up inside the legal system, or inside of one of my clients, businesses really causing a lot of problems, right?

Efren Delgado  06:57

So if you could spot them from afar, you can avoid a lot of problems. And I have a whole chapter on instinct, intuition. We all have this natural ability that has nothing to do with being a psychic medium or anything. It’s founded in logic. Yeah. And I kind of explain some obvious examples. Like I think I started out with, imagine yourself at an ATM machine in the summer months of Arizona, really hot. And there’s somebody standing behind you with a ski mask on. Now, that’s not the appropriate attire for the summer months, you’re not judging them for their attire or being judgmental of somebody, you know, the point is your logic and take you to your natural instinct. And you can’t always put your finger on, what’s the funny feeling I have? And why am I finding easy with this person. But my point is, there’s probably a good reason and you need to trust it. And the less you use your instincts, the more they will atrophy. So the more you use it, the more refined you’ll get. And you’ll almost become psychic, what you don’t feel like you’re psychic, when you just start relying on it. And so, I guess at the end of the day, I’m saying listen to your instincts, and then explore where that’s coming from. So you do back it up with actual substance. But to avoid danger, you don’t need to convince anybody, you just get out of it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  08:22

Right. And sometimes it’s the difference between making a split decision or not, it has a pretty dramatic outcome as one example. And I fully support everything that you’ve just said, and whether it’s visually like, I feel like there’s lots of ways that we take in information or even think about how, think about being in a room where somebody comes into the room, and just the energy changes in the room like, feels different unit. I mean, it’s legitimate, it’s legitimate, and you can tell based on somebody’s face based on the way they physically present, and I feel like there are systems that we have that are in tune to this that are just part of our biology, that not everything is necessarily being run through the logical brain, but we are making instantaneous decisions. As part of our survival mechanism. It’s the way that we’re designed. And I think of one really poignant example from my my college days, I was in Salt Lake City. I will just say at that time, we were on the wrong side of the tracks. My friend, we were going to a music venue that her brother was playing in so we were going to support his music and we had to stop at a gas station. And we had stopped this was pre cellphone days, we’d actually stopped at a payphone to get proper directions because we couldn’t find it. And I looked across I was at the payphone but it was actually my friend’s car she was driving and I looked across the kind of the lot the at the gas station sat on, right. So you’re like looking kind of like past the gas station, pumps and everything. And there was a guy walking on the opposite sidewalk like the diagonal sidewalk. But in an instant, I could tell something was wrong with him. Right, right. And within a second of seeing him, I said, Jenny, get in the car right now. And she had to go around to get back into the driver’s seat. And I had to go around because I had been at the payphone to get on her side. And so I literally was closing the car door, when he was there trying to like pull it open from the outside. Wow.

Efren Delgado  10:39

And that’s you had hesitated at all, you guys would have been hurt? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:40

Yeah, I mean, it just who even knows. And so you know, she’s locking the door and driving away, and I’m pulling the car door closed. And I don’t I to this day, I don’t know what it was about him that registered as dangerous and bad. But within an instant, I knew and I told her get in the car right now. Like, right now.

Efren Delgado  11:02

That is an excellent example. Because here’s about offending people when your safety is on the line. Yeah, so whether you’re on a date, or whether you’re about to do a business contract with somebody, trust your gut, you can’t put your finger on it. Don’t worry about it. Who cares? If people get offended, we don’t want to lose all your money, and you don’t want to lose your life.

Heather Pearce Campbell  11:22

This is it. And in particular, I think men have a bit more freedom in society to be louder to be a little bit more, you know, out front with things women are definitely just through, you know, not always intentionally, but certainly through societal structures and influences. You know, women are supposed to be more compliant, our safety historically, literally dependent on us going along, right and usually relying on somebody else for protection. 

Efren Delgado  11:56

Yeah, that makes sense. Women are more vulnerable. That’s just a fact. And dealing in that reality, whether it’s comfortable or not, will help you denying that reality will put people in danger. And that generalizes to anytime you’re in denial, you’re choosing comfort over reality, and comfort will get you in trouble. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:17

Yeah, we all want to be comfortable, not actually comfort when you start to dissect it and look at what the outcome is.

Efren Delgado  12:23

Definitely, you should, and a lot of the bad guys, whether you’re a bully or tyrant, criminal, a lot of the bad guys bask in comfort, ironically. So they’re so selfish, that they’ll choose anything to cover up and protect their vulnerability. So they think kind of the world is fodder for their protection. They don’t say that. So they convey all this strength, but they take advantage of people to put little band aids over the gushing wounds that they have deep inside. But these little band aids are just temporary, I guess, not solutions, but their temporary remedy is to feel better temporarily, but they never actually become better people because the answer to fulfilment is self less less. And that’s what the good guys do. They make themselves vulnerable, for other people for themselves for their families, they have goals, they have North Stars, and all that takes work and effort, strength and risk. And the bad guys are envious of the strength of the good guys. That’s why they lash out attack. So they have multiple motives for being bad. But the bottom line is we will be their victims if we soak in denial. So if we just kind of live in the real world, trust our gut, and face them, we can manage them.

Heather Pearce Campbell  13:47

Yeah, well, and so much of even the work that I do, is actually around helping people understand their business boundaries. But it ultimately is about communication. Right? How do we communicate that? Well, first of all, how do we recognize what other people are communicating? So it sounds like you’ve got a way to help people spot what might be coming. I have what I call a red flags, kind of checklist that I go over with clients about like, these are the things to watch for that tells you a red flag client is coming. I be curious, like, you know, using that terminology, what you see as red flags. 

Efren Delgado  14:29

Yeah, I’m curious about your list too. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  14:31

So my red flag list tends to be things that are I would say, you know, anytime my clients have what are called like a red flag scenario, we look backwards like okay, what went wrong? What flags did you see that you may be ignored? That, you know, caused you to? In reflection, go oh, I should have actually paid attention. into that, right. So over many years of practice, I’ve been in legal practice for over 20 years now, there’s a list of things that I think can help people spot certain behaviors that they should avoid in a new client, right, and actually would cause me to tell a client, like, we’re probably not the right fit. But usually, it’s things like asking for special concessions, or making a big deal out of something that’s actually quite small or saying things at the very start that are already pushing boundaries. So for example, maybe you describe to somebody the way that you typically engage in your client work, and you’ve got a system that you follow, and they start picking apart the system or saying, Oh, well, that part doesn’t really apply to me. And it’s this process of kind of creating exceptions, like, in their way trying to tell you I’m exceptional, right. And what it really is going to mean is like, you’re going to inherit a bunch of heartache if you work with.

Efren Delgado  16:05

Those are great examples. And I feel like you could teach this stuff to you why you’re recognizing consciously or unconsciously or just from experience, that outside of context, and continuum always matters. And I say that because if you think about context, it just tells you what’s appropriate, what isn’t appropriate, based on the certain scenario, so right now, I’m in the private sector, and I, I do threat assessments and private security, physical security, that sort of thing. And what I do when I have a new detail, every detail is different, is it’s kind of establish a norm. And then you’re probably not old enough, but we used to have this old game called Whack a Mole. And you’re old enough, okay, good. So whack a mole, his game or these little plastic, or clay or whatever they were moles would would jump out out of kind of a row of like, a three by three or something. And you just hit it with this rubber hammer, as it jumps out. So whack a mole. So insecurity, you look for the norm, you establish what that norm is, and you look for outliers or anomalies. Like if you’re at a Taylor Swift concert, and everybody’s dressed a certain way and sharing and as a smaller, closer face. And another. Random guys were in full camouflage and walking with a black. Oh, no hoodie with a scowl on his face, that guy is going to catch your attention. And I’m not judging the person sick. Race clothing, what I’m doing is looking for an anomaly in a sea of whatever the consensus is, yeah. So even if they don’t do anything, it gets your attention. So outside of context, people, people’s extreme behaviors point to the opposite. So somebody’s constantly verbalizing their resume and how competent they are, how strong and smart and brave they are. Probably the opposite is true. And so same with like business savvy, or legal savviness, or for being a great family member, or a great friend, people who are really competent and authentic, don’t have to show boat, all those things. The proof is in the pudding. And it just is more organic. So So those red flags you’ve noticed are concrete, but they can easily be generalized to a bigger picture of like, Why? Why do they have to say so much instead of just you know, hearing how the company does things? Or what’s your policies or what the culture of the company is? So, I think you’re really onto it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:48

All right, let’s pause for a moment and hear from today’s sponsor. Are you an entrepreneur who is on track to make a million or more in revenue this year in your business? If so, your business is likely facing a host of legal issues that are right for support. And if you are like so many of my clients at this level, you are likely tired of taking unnecessary risks and a DIY approach to legal support in your business. You’re ready to tackle the mess of legal documents, six legal gaps that you have. You want to take care of your IP, your clients, your business, and avoid unnecessary conflict and risk in the process. If this is you, and beyond just being an entrepreneur, you are a catalyst and are committed to your mission and your impact in the world. I invite you to get in touch. You could be a fit for my catalyst club, a small business legal support program that I designed for my high level clients. Just like you, you can find out more at legalwebsitewarrior.com. Just click on the Work with Me tab to learn more about the catalyst club and other ways that I support my clients, a fabulous group of world changing entrepreneurs, I might add, you’ve done the initial legwork in your business. And now you want to soar. And you know that you can only go as high and as far as your legal foundation lets you go. So get in touch today, hop over to legalwebsitewarrior.com, click on the Work with Me tab. And if you have any questions, get in touch through the Contact link on my site, I look forward to connecting it would be a joy to support you on your path.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:33

Well, it’s you’ve got some great examples there as well, the showboating and the overstating. I think it’s really interesting because in the world of entrepreneurship, so many of us learn, I mean, we have to in order to run a business, right, you have to get good at sales, meaning that you have to show up and be able to convey in a way that is, you know, connects with your preferably ideal client ideal customer, what you do and how you help them. And clearly in the world of entrepreneurship, and I work with all small businesses and entrepreneurs, including a lot of entrepreneurs who consume B2B services, right? They are consuming support services from other business owners, but how often something does get overstated or over sold, and under delivered. It’s really interesting, like how far you can take this concept. But right, the overstatement like, I think everybody listening knows the difference between connecting with someone where they’re like, You know what, this person is genuine, I trust what they’re saying is true. If they didn’t need to overstate their experience, I can read it, or I can see it, or I can hear it in the way that they just describe their work. Versus and how often I mean, this is an unfortunate example. But I feel like it happens a lot. And I don’t know why it’s one that stands out. Maybe it’s because of my own past in the world of religion, but folks who are like, you know, they lead with religion, like I’m a Christian, God fearing man or whatever. There are certain things like that that went over stated repeatedly, like my initial outlook is like, you’re somebody who’s up to some bad things, which is why you have to say that repeatedly. Right?

Efren Delgado  22:29

That’s good intuition. Now, otherwise, you could state it naturally organically in conversation, but you don’t have to state that repeatedly. There’s an ulterior motive there. You’re trying to cover something. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:41

That’s it. That’s it. And I think everybody whatever their things are, that are on their list. They know how it feels to have somebody say something in a way that’s like there’s something more there. And I think the key, which you mentioned really early on, is learning to pay attention to that instinct, learning to pay. And it’s really interesting, because when you think about even the context of business, having conversations with people you mentioned, you know, not wanting to offend people, I think we have a lot of motivators about why we don’t address things at certain times. There was an example in my life with my son who was really young at the time to like two and a half. And he is a kid that was verbal very early. He really developed early meaning that he was physical rambunctious, he was very social, like he would know all the names of the Starbucks baristas before it. You know, to me, it’s funny, he was that kid. Yeah. And so we’d be going through Starbucks drive thru, and he’d be like, there’s candy, you know, and she’s got our same last name Campbell. Shout out to Candy at our local Starbucks. Anyways, we went through one day, and there was a new guy, and we didn’t know him. And he something about him was very off. And I will say that I noticed it. I sensed it right away. Luckily, it’s a short interaction, you know, and before I know it, I’m getting my drink, and we’re about to drive away. And Aiden says from the back seat as a two and a half year old but kind of loudly. I don’t like that guy.

Efren Delgado  24:22

I love that about kids are so brutally honest. I love it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:26

But initially, my instinct was to be a little embarrassed to be like, Oh my gosh, what if he heard that to try to? Like I remember turning and thinking, like, I needed to tell Aiden to like, tone it down. And then I realized I caught myself and I was like, No, I never want to tone that instinct down because I cut myself and as we were driving away, I said, Sweetie, you’re right. Something was off about that guy and he was really little, I said, that is actually called an instinct. And I said, you have very good instincts about people.

Efren Delgado  25:07

Good job, Heather.  That’s good mother. Well, it was hard.

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:10

I had some very, very early interactions in my own life by age three that were fairly traumatic, that taught me a lot about paying attention to instincts. And so, in my own mothering, I’ve really tried to help my kids nurture their own inner knowing. But it was funny at the time, I said to him, I said, Do you know what an instinct is? And he said, from the backseat, it’s like monkeys swinging through trees. And I realized, okay, he might be a little bit young to talk about abstract.

Efren Delgado  25:42

Totally, but you supported him and didn’t scowl him for being socially inappropriate or offensive, you know, all that other stuff that society tries to, I guess, this arm us from our actual strengths and tools that we have naturally. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:57

Well, that’s right. And I think it’s human nature to not want to offend, to not want to cause a problem. But I think that there are ways that we can address these things, whether it’s just labeling it like you know what, I just don’t think this is a fit or you know, what, I think you’d be better served by somebody else, or, you know, some way that you still allow yourself an exit from that scenario with a potential client or, you know, fellow person in business where it’s just not a fit.

Efren Delgado  26:29

One mistake, a lot of the good guys make your listeners my readers, is we try in an effort to be nice, we try to explain everything, but they will twist that on us and take advantage of the good guys. So just make a mental note,and then politely bail out. So you don’t have to engage. You don’t have to teach lessons to these people who give you red flags. You just have to preserve yourself, your goals, your family, your teammates, and go from there. I’ve got a good example. Like I put in my book when I was young. We had a neighbor, who would host these barbecues, he’s never had barbecues, and you know, it was the early 80s. And everybody’s having fun. They were really sweet. Well, my mom had a very funny feeling about Ricardo,the father of the household, who’d host his barbecues, he’d give me too much attention. And when I was guessing, like, maybe eight years old, seven years old. It was like eight or nine, something like that. And after these little barbecues, my mom said to my father and my older brother, don’t ever leave Efren along with Ricardo with Manju over react, and he’s a nice guy. And then later, the same guy tried to give us my brother and I speakers like music speakers have a gift. Nowadays, we would call that grooming Yes. Yep. Be sure why story short, I was never left alone with him. Years later, I’m in my dorm room at the University of Texas at Austin. And I get this bin envelope from my parents, and as a new school newspaper clipping inside, and I opened it up and Ricardo had been convicted of child molestation for years from many, many victims. And so spent, you know, went to jail. So my mom’s aunt thinks she wasn’t an FBI person. She was a psychologist. She wasn’t a cop. She was just a mother with good instincts. Yeah. And she listened to that. And to your point with what happened to you, when you were younger, and all the other adversity you’ve experienced in your life, I often say to encourage people because we all have adversity, that adversity is the catalyst to purpose. And not only purpose, but action and to success because it’ll drive us emotionally to do something about it. Well, we went through the bad guys ended up attacking the world. The good guys grow from it, because Humility is the only path of wisdom and adversity humbles the rest of us. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:06

That’s such a good phrase. I love that adversity is the catalyst to purpose. I’m writing that down. 

Efren Delgado  29:13

Yeah, that’s a good one. It encourages me too.

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:17

It will and it’s so true. I mean, similar to your experience when I was probably not even three, two and a half I was young enough to be very aware of what was going on, but still not as verbal as I wanted to be. Like, head to toe, footie PJs, you know, that’s how little I was like the zip up. You know, PJ’s? Yeah, from the 70s. So this would have been late 70s, probably 79. And it was a kid from our church that my parents brought over as a babysitter and he was a teenager, but the second he walked in our house as a little tiny The person I knew something was wrong. And I did not want him close to me. I did not. Like I was terrified that my parents were leaving us with him, but I couldn’t verbalize it.

Efren Delgado  30:12

Yeah. That’s so frustrating. It’s a paradox.

Heather Pearce Campbell  30:15

Yes, exactly. But, you know, my early life lesson was to listen to my voice, to listen to that inner knowing. And then that translated into me actually using my voice and screaming my little head off, which I think saved me. It didn’t save me from the trauma of the event itself. But it saved me from anything going any further. And it would it taught me at a very young age was the power of my voice, the power of my intuition and the power of my voice. And do you know that following that, I have spent time around people who like you, you later learn like something pretty bad about them, you know, where they took advantage of somebodyor hurt children or whatever, I’ve had multiple people like that, in my life that I have spent a lot of time around. And yet, they did not cross my boundaries. And I wasn’t aware that they even were, you know, we’re the type of person that would, but I am convinced that that early experience gave me very strong boundaries with people even just an energetic and justified, yes, even just an energetic boundary, you didn’t have to feel apologetic about it. Yes. And the way that I communicate has always been very clear, including withprofessional colleagues and males. And so it is really interesting. And I agree with your statement that adversity is the catalyst to purpose and that we all have experiences, you know, not exactly the same, but like this, that teach us a tremendous amount in our life and lead to, if we let it lead to some pretty profound, inner knowings and ways that we get to influence other people.

Efren Delgado  32:15

Yeah, that’s really, really well said, and these patterns generalize to people like Hitler all the way to people who are just not so nice in our own families or offices. So even the little boy in our family at the Christmas dinner, like nagging at you the way you made the turkey or whatever, you’re coming from a place of weakness. And the people, the fewer people in our lives that are very supportive, always encouraging, always winning, very competent. They are by definition special, because they’re not like most people. And so they should be rewarded by our attention our time. There’s a concept that’s not too profound, but very true in my book that I call Association, osmosis. And it’s pretty much the idea that the people you hang out with, they’re gonna rub off on you, whether you like it or not. So you might as well be strategic and unapologetic about it. That’s right.

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:12

And I think that’s a hard lesson for a lot of people to learn. I mean, the number of times even in the last few weeks that I’ve had conversations with people in my life about, you know, what, we get to create our own family, just because, you know, certain people might inherit certain family members who can be very challenging, doesn’t mean that those bonds have to remain doesn’t mean that you have to surround yourself with and I’m thinking in particular, of a friend who used to be married. And one of the things she learned really early in therapy, which I consider a huge gem, was because she was complaining that her spouse didn’t spend enough time around his family. But it turns out, his family was quite toxic from the standpoint of like, not being healthy people not being good influences. Yeah, and the therapist is like, why would you think that you need to spend more time around that even though their family, that’s not a choice you have to make? And that was a big aha for her. I mean, we were in our 20s At that time, but I remember learning even through her like talking about this osmosis, right? Association through osmosis. What a gem of a lesson that was that you know, what we do, you get to choose who we spend time with, we do get to choose ultimately, who our true family in this lifetime is. Doesn’t have to be the people that are automatically there.

Efren Delgado  34:40

That’s such a great point. And we often have these epiphanies in our 20s because we leave the mass kids that are kind of stuck. But as adults, we kind of have an obligation to choose our own family. That’s what friends are for. They become the families of our choices. Yeah, because if you think about it, what is really DNA has to do with anything. Even God Himself, Jesus, God incarnate, made himself be adopted by Joseph to prove to the world it’s not about DNA, it’s about part actions support. So I have to give that example to people who have had the biological family members. Don’t feel this unnecessary guilt or obligation to be around toxic, unhealthy or frankly, dangerous, abusive people, you could create your own family as an adult, that’s one of the beautiful things about being an adult, you choose your own family, and you cut off who you need to cut off, or you limit who you have to live. It’s a continuum, it doesn’t have to be black and white, depending on the severity. That’s how much you cut off, but don’t feel guilty about your decisions.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:49

Now. That’s right. And I think that the more that you feel free to make decisions that are healthy decisions, and that recognize the truth of a situation. And I think, you know, that’s the hard thing I look at, probably you and I grew up in the same generation where the message from my parents was, like, be nice, and you’d be nice to everybody at school. And the messaging that I give to my children is like, yes, we should try to be kind. And you need to recognize that you don’t need to have a relationship with everybody at school, what you need to watch for the kids were relationship is a two way street, they treat you kindly, and they’re respectful of you, and, and vice versa. But if you are, if you’re trying to be friends with a bunch of kids that could care less or are dismissive of you, or leave you out of things like those are not the types of relationships we need to pursue. And that’s the conversation I’m having with my kids, which I feel like is quite a bit different than probably the messaging that many of us got as children. 

Efren Delgado  36:58

Yeah, I love that. Because I remember I was the kid always questioning the teachers, questioning authority. So of course, I got my share of trouble. But it wasn’t out of like, being bad. It was just literally questioning. And sometimes the adults were wrong. Yes. And it looked back now. I’m 48 years old, I look back now at some of those times in elementary school, and I’m like, the kid was the right one, not the adult.

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:27

It’s so true. It’s tough. Yeah, it is tough. And even on that point, you know, the conversation that I have with my kids is like adults are going to fail you even mommy and daddy are going to fail you and that’s one of all of our life lessons. But the very most important thing is how you feel about yourself, and that you never give up on that internal voice. And I mean, it’s just fascinating how relevant this conversation is literally to every area of life. A couple things, because I know we’ve been a little slowed down by our connection. And I want to be super respectful of your time. But I have a couple of questions that I know we need to get to. And one is I would love to hear what drew you into your line of work. How did you decide that this is what you wanted to pursue? 

Efren Delgado  38:20

Well, it’s a similar topic. But I opened my book by describing I started second grade. I started school, one year younger than all the other kids who had just started a year early and kindergarten and preschool first grade, no big deal. Everybody’s essentially a toddler. Yep. But a joint the older you get there, there’s a bigger difference in one year. Yeah. So when I joined second grade, at a new school, down the street from where I lived, everybody was great, except two kids who bullied me because I was young, sweet, naive, you know, the sweet little kid one year younger than everybody. And looking back, it wasn’t this intense bullying, like Elon Musk was actually hospitalized from being bullied. So nothing like that. But like I said, everything’s context and continuum. So this relative traumas still legitimate to anybody preceded him. So I remember asking at that young age, why would somebody be mean when they could simply be nice? Yeah. And if you think about that question, it’s the fundamental question of psychology. Why do people do what they do? And deeper? It’s the fundamental question of criminology. Why do bad people do what they do? So that sparked my interest in human behavior, psychology, criminology without knowing all of those limbs. Yeah. Yeah. And so I always had that interest. I got held back that year just to catch up with the other kids, even though it’s passed, and it was kind of subpar. So I did some think great again. And the way I phrased it in the book is my parents and teachers thought it was for the best, which I interpreted that I was stupid. Yeah, so there’s some adversity there, some humility there. And a humility is the only path of wisdom even for a child. And so when I went to a different school to second grade, again, I went in, I entered kind of cynical, but my natural personality is to have sense of humor and be kind. And before you knew it, I was making people laugh, and it became one of the popular kids, to my surprise. So I vowed to myself, I was always going to protect the kids who couldn’t protect themselves. And this isn’t like any knowledge of FBI criminology of psychology, it was just kind of a human nature thing. Like, I know what that’s like. And I’m always going to protect kids who can’t protect themselves. So I think that sparked my interest, and it just kept pursuing it, psychology, criminology, and whether, even if the FBI never existed, I still would have done that sort of work. And it’s what I’m doing now in the private sector. And even with my book, I’m essentially protecting the good guys, and exposing the bad guys for the weak little chihuahuas barking at the doorbells that they are.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:16

You know, it’s so interesting. There was a case years ago that I worked on like talking about this to Wawa analogy. And it was a really tough case, there was a business partner that had hamstrung and a couple of other business partners after completely stealing hundreds of 1000s of dollars from them, and also not paying like employment taxes. And so he’d really caused some problems for the business was all caught up in litigation. And then at the same time, they had a bank that was calling the loans due on underlying real estate, like there were multiple problems. But that could not be resolved, so long as this partnership dispute was going on. And this guy knew it. So he wanted to hang everybody up and basically get a lot more money, you know, he’d already stolen way too much from the partners in the business. And anyways, and he was lying to the court. So, and one of the parties had been represented by a big law firm here in Seattle, I ended up stepping in, in the 11th hour. And my advice to the remaining two business partners was fire your counsel, here’s the conversation that you need to go have face to face with this guy where he understands exactly what’s going to happen if he pursues this route, which were all legal outcomes, like, look, we’re gonna hire a PI, we’re gonna follow because he was making all these claims about being dirt poor and not having any money and that his kids couldn’t afford shoes on their feet. And these pretty insane things that were not true, but as a way to try to garner you know, empathy and sway with Yeah, with counsel and with the court and, and he was just a manipulative liar. That’s ultimately that’s how we got through life was manipulating and lying to everybody. 

Efren Delgado  43:18

That sounds like psychopathy, yes, it was bad.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:21

And I just told them, like, look, as crazy as he might be. He cares about his kids. His wife is gonna care about the kids, and you sit down and have this very hard conversation about like, here’s what we’re going to do if you don’t drop this case. And they went and had it. And guess who was ready to settle within about 24 hours of that conversation. And none of the other counsel knew why, like the the counsel that had represented these guys that I mean, they had like $100,000 legal built bill, nobody knew why suddenly this guy was ready to be done and and settle for zero money, no longer demanding like a 70 or $80,000 payment, which by the way, one of the partners was ready to pay and I was like, Oh, hell no, you’re not paying him. Another cent. And this is just a really classic example of the ways that people will manipulate and be that barking Chihuahua and utilize the legal system to a really unfair advantage. 

Efren Delgado  44:25

What I love about that is you recognize the science, you’re able to use it in your negotiation of the whole thing, your position. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:32

Well, and luckily, I had clients that were able to hear me and go do that very hard thing of a face to face conversation with somebody who had been an extreme bully, but really, like lay it out for him and it wasn’t threatening anything that couldn’t be done within the legal system and the legal way that you handle things as far as discovery goes and hiring investigators and doing all of this work to the enth degree but it was just laying it out. but in a way, where he quickly realized the payoff was not actually the payoff that he wanted. And this potential damage to their personal life and family through all of these exposures of the lives was going to be really problematic. So anyways, it was a really interesting scenario, but it was exactly that where I was like, you’ve got a guy on the other side who is totally a toxic bully. And with those type of people, you have to have a very big stick if you’re going to play their game. 

Efren Delgado  45:34

Yeah, and sometimes simply standing up for yourself that, you know, everybody says punch the bully in the nose, they are not used to that because being a bully is effective. Most people don’t want problems. Most people are quickly intimidated, because the good guys don’t need problems. But when you do stand up for yourself, and you punch them in the nose, or you know, figuratively speaking sometimes literally, they really back down their true colors.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:01

That’s right, conceptually punch him in the nose. We can say that totally. Right.

Efren Delgado  46:06

Exactly. And their true colors quickly come come out. I was never a cop. But I have a lot of COP brands. And I’m in the LA area. So they’ve had to deal with gangs. Yeah, one pattern they often tell me is, when they’re with all their buddies, they’re all tough. But when they’re about that rough that gang member by himself, they quickly give up. So it’s just it’s all of that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:29

Yeah. Well, it’s you know, and the other thing that you said that I felt like, you know, I didn’t emphasize enough at the start of the conversation was how certain people can become targets, right. And you put somebody who may be as a business owner and entrepreneur, even somebody like yourself that writes a book or get on stages, and then they’re in the limelight, and people start to think like, you know, I mean, I will say, the wrong kind of people, bullies, people that might target others. And it absolutely is true in business as well, that small businesses, entrepreneurs, people who are, you know, moving and shaking and really doing interesting things, they can become targets. And that’s the really unfortunate side of business is actually being aware that that’s the reality. And then it’s just about how you deal with it. And from me, obviously, my perspective is legally, how do you prepare for that? How do you, you know, just plan for that stuff to happen at time so that you are set up in a way where you can quickly deal with it?

Efren Delgado  47:34

Yeah, that’s a good point. And what’s interesting in Thermotoga, we’ve touched upon it, but it’s atwo parter. One, they don’t want to be exposed. So when we’re talking about these truths, and then revealing them as the chihuahuas working the doorbell, the the idea is, they’re always trying to hide their weaknesses of vulnerability with such loud peacocking. So if we’re exposing them, they will be threatened and they’ll want to attack like a cornered lion. The other motive that they have is, they’re envious. They’re jealous of the people pursuing their dreams, their goals, having success, because they’re not brave enough to take those risks, and go for it. And so they want to pull other people down off their wall, so that they don’t feel as bad about their medical lives, frankly.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:25

That’s right. That’s right. And I’ve seen it time and again, with clients. I’ve seen it with people in my own personal life. It’s unfortunate, but what you describe is absolutely true. Efren, my goodness, I feel like we could keep chatting, I’ve so enjoyed connecting with you and hearing your insights on this, I can tell that through your work, you have a big heart for helping people I’m sure that that is what has led to you publishing a book on this topic, where’s your book available?

Efren Delgado  48:55

So anywhere your  favorite book retailer, but the easiest way is you can go to my website and there’s a button there that could access it to anywhere. It’s so my website is EfrenDelgado, that’s E-F-R-E-N delgado.com. Pretty simple there. It’ll tell you a little bit about the book. There’s a page about me and my background, and there’s a quick button there to access the book if you’d like. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:25

Awesome, I love it. Well, we will definitely share the link over to your website to your book as well as your social I know you shared some social handles you’re on Facebook, Instagram, as well as LinkedIn. Do you like to connect with people online and where would you direct them?

Efren Delgado  49:45

I do I think Instagram for for people following me is probably the best which is this @EfrenDelgado. Awesome.

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:54

Okay, well, we’re very happy to share that as well. effort. I so appreciate you.This is a topic I care a lot about. I mean, I think that, you know, you have spent a whole career studying it, I’m super excited to go check out your book. I feel like you know, even just based on this short discussion, there’s a lot of alignment in the way that we think about certain behaviors and red flags and other people. And it’s just super important that we all recognize this is a part of life. And it’s certainly a part of being better at business and even leadership and certainly even personal leadership. Right. So if somebody’s listening to this, that is not even in the entrepreneurial world, just personal leadership in life, generally, it’s such an important topic.

Efren Delgado  50:43

That’s really well said and it just for your audience, remember, we’re all human. And, you know, Adversity is the catalyst, the wisdom and the bad guys don’t pursue that was something that just cower in the fetal position. But I think, Heather, you’re a great example of someone who’s overcome broad adversity, and look at you now. So not to sound condescending, but I’m proud of you. And, and I think a lot of your audiences, too, I’m sure that’s either part of your audience. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  51:12

Oh well, I so appreciate that. Friend, I am super excited to share this. I can’t wait to send people your way. Thank you so much for being here. I know. You know, because you have such a big heart, I want to mention really quick, you’ve got a five step guide. Right. And I think it’s accessible right on your website.

Efren Delgado  51:30

It is a one click, and it’s a way to kind of subscribe to my newsletter. I call it the roundup brag, essentially, to get an idea on a topic I want to address. And I’ll write a short page page and a half on it. But there’s a free PDF there that will give you five counterintuitive truths that could quite potentially turn your life around when you see these counterintuitive and paradoxical realities, but it’s for the benefit of your audience. The good guys as opposed to the bad guys. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:03

That’s right. We are here to help the good guys so folks, make sure you pop over and get that that is the five step guide to transform your human insecurities into superhuman strengths. Efren, I so appreciate you. I’m gonna give you the final say, aside from going and grabbing that, what final step or takeaway would you like to leave people with?

Efren Delgado  52:24

I think the one takeaway that is really vital as proof grows and valleys not a mountain top so just remember, humility is the only path to wisdom. Those who are humble are your allies, those who are prideful, or probably don’t have your best interest. So just stay humble and move forward.

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:41

I love that fruit grows and valleys goosebumps. Okay, folks, you heard it here. Efren, thank you so much.

Efren Delgado  52:48

Thank you. Have a good one.

GGGB Outro  52:50

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.