With Holly Chantal, a business coach and brand strategist who, for over a decade, has been helping visionary coaches and service professionals uncover the brand that is at the core of their work and build the necessary infrastructure to support rapid growth in their business. She has created over 200 brands from idea to launching including copywriting, website design, and marketing strategy, has managed up to 20 website design projects at once, has made changes to a client’s messaging strategy that resulted in a $25,000 increase in revenue for that month, has produced content for videos and blogs that resulted in 100% increase in traffic, and has created a brand positioning strategy that led a client to 7 figures in revenue within a year.

In this podcast, we talked about strategies and tips that would help business owners who have hit their upper limit to figure out what they should do to bring their brand, business model, and marketing systems to the next level.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

• “Your website should last you a few years. If you rush it, you could be wasting a lot of money having to redo it.”
• Why experts have such a hard time “recognizing their magic.”
• The importance of having pattern interrupts in your copy.
• Understanding your audience doesn’t just help them – it helps you in attracting the right people into your offerings.

“I only had two hours a day (to serve my clients). … So what I did, I took the same programs I had and restructured them into evergreen group programs.”

-Holly Chantal

Check out these highlights:

• 08:16 It is the content and the messaging that needs to be upgraded in your website. Design may stay the same.
• 12:19 Holly shares the different stages in which she works with her clients.
• 26:54 How different personality types influence marketing messaging.
• 45:00 Holly shares her personal experience including how she reduced her time time in her business (while continuing to grow her business!) so she could take care of her kids during the pandemic.
• 56:59 Sometimes, taking a step back can be tremendously helpful.

How to get in touch with Holly:

On social media:

Facebook: www.facebook.com/hollychantal

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollychantal

Learn more about Holly, by visiting her website here, or email her at hello@hollychantal.com

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Coming up today on Guts, Grit and Great Business™…

Holly Chantal  00:04

It’s really involved and I feel like a lot of folks put it on their to do list. And they don’t realize that it’s, it’s a project like you got to, you have to give yourself a significant amount of time to just make sure that because it’s once it’s done, your website should last you a few years. So if you rush it or if you really don’t do this foundational work first, you could be wasting a lot of money having to redo it again, because it’s just not right. And the thing is, is that you you evolve over time. So two, three years from now, your website is not going to reflect you anymore because most most entrepreneurs I know get bored very quickly with the same old same old so you’re, you’re a fast evolving person. And your website needs to reflect that.

GGGB Intro  00:50

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:22

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving entrepreneurs around the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business™. I am super excited to bring you Holly Chantal today. Welcome, Holly.

Holly Chantal  01:47

Thank you for having me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:48

Yeah, it’s great to connect with you. We we were laughing about our computers misbehaving. And we had to do a little technology reset and so naughty. So they were they were just feeling super naughty for a Tuesday. But we’re back and I’m super excited to connect with you. I know we’ve got lots of great topics and stories to talk about today. For those of you that don’t know, Holly, for over a decade, Holly Chantal has been helping visionary coaches and service professionals uncover the brand that is at the core of their work, and build the necessary infrastructure to support rapid growth in their business. Her clients have gone on to create sold out lunches, sell 100k offers and elevate themselves as leaders in their industry, using the messaging and marketing she developed for them. If you’re looking for someone that can quickly grasp what you do in all of its complexity and help you find the best path forward, Holly is the woman to call. So welcome, Holly. I know you and I were initially introduced. It’s through my friend Jay Rec, who’s also been on the podcast. 

Holly Chantal  02:56

Yes, Jay is awesome.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:58

Jay is awesome. And then we reconnected recently because we landed in the same mastermind. Yep. Yeah. So it’s fabulous to have you here to share with our listeners a little bit about how you got started in the messaging world.

Holly Chantal  03:16

Yeah, so I kind of probably like a lot of your guests fell into it organically kind of by accident. I started out doing website design, and for specifically for coaches and consultants. And what happened was, I found that even though a lot of the folks I was working with were six and seven figures, when it came down to their website, they didn’t know what to say. They didn’t know what strategies to use. So they couldn’t ask for anything. Specifically, it was kind of I’ll know when I see it kind of thing. And any, any listeners that are in like the creative space know what a nightmare that is. Because you’re having to give revision after revision until they see it. So I started to develop a, some processes for getting some of those preliminary decisions out of the way before we started a project. And really foundationally that came down to target audience offers, what are the marketing strategies are they using, and then I would design the strategy around their natural communication style and their, their, their audience and all of those things. And I ended up writing their copy. And so I would just I would do in order to get the project done. I would just do it all. It ended up working out really well because when my business partner retired from design, and that was no longer something I could offer. I still had that messaging strategy and branding to fall back on and that’s that’s what I do. And that’s really where my passion has always been. Once I got into it and realized how fun it can be to really dig in to the nitty gritty of how people work and what their magic is, and then how do we put words to it, I find that that’s really, really fun. And it’s been, it’s been great.

Heather Pearce Campbell  05:09

No, I love that, well, I can see you light up, even just talking about it. It’s so interesting that it started essentially out of necessity for you, right in order to like, do this other thing that you are creating, I mean, a website, it is amazing how much thought and careful attention to detail and everything else is that is required to go into, you know, building a website, I think people tend to just think like, I love that I know it when I’ll see it, you know, I’ll know it when I see it. And it’s so much more than that. It’s it’s really is like piecing together this puzzle for anybody that’s ever gone through a, you know, a website launch or website redesign. It’s quite a process.

Holly Chantal  05:53

It’s really involved. And I feel like a lot of folks put it on their to do list. And they don’t realize that it’s, it’s a project, like you got to, you have to give yourself a significant amount of time to just make sure that because it’s once it’s done, your website should last you a few years. So if you rush it, or if you really don’t do this foundational work first, you could be wasting a lot of money having to redo it again, because it’s just not right. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:20

Right, you can end up with something that is not truly reflective of who you are. And I feel like you’d have to redo it in a few years anyways. Right? I think the goal is that we all have websites that reflect who we truly are, who reflect our services are really a good representation of ourselves. And if we missed the mark, it shows up in our business, right? 

Holly Chantal  06:44

And the thing is that you you evolve over time. So two, three years from now, your website is not going to reflect you anymore, because most most entrepreneurs I know get bored very quickly with the same old, same old. So you’re, you’re a fast evolving person. And your website needs to reflect that. Yeah.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:03

Well, and I think a lot of people get caught up on the design and images. And, you know, the messaging is really the most important part, right? 

Holly Chantal  07:14

I love messaging, because it’s so easy to update. So as long as your website structure is a fit for the type of marketing that you’re doing, the messaging is so easy to change, because it’s just words. And so it’s really…

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:30

From a functional perspective. Yeah.

Holly Chantal  07:34

From a technical perspective, you can review the way that the way you’re saying things, test your headlines, there’s just so much more flexibility, and it’s a dynamic part of your business. So that’s that’s kind of where I nerd out is, is continually updating that and upgrading so you’re getting better results.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:53

Well, and that was actually going to be my next question, because I can imagine some people listening are like, I have to redo my website every few years. But I think what I’m hearing you say is it’s not like an entire website redo. It’s really about just keeping the content fresh, keeping the message on point.

Holly Chantal  08:10

If your website visually represents you, then that stays the same. It’s really the content and the messaging that needs to upgrade because you’re evolving and changing who you’re serving the type of offers you have. And those are the kinds of things that need to stay in alignment.

Heather Pearce Campbell  08:26

Yeah. So when you develop this process that you referenced early on about helping people figure out their message, tell us a little bit about how that came about? And do you have a process that you walk people through to help them really boil down to kind of the true essence of what it is that they need to be saying?

Holly Chantal  08:46

Yeah, so that started out as the branding game, which was based on Candyland. And we would take people through this whole journey of figuring out their personality and who their target audience was. And they explore the force of opportunity to figure out what their niche was, and, and those kinds of things. That’s actually I actually still have that program. I launched it back in 2012. And it’s gone through a few evolutions over the years, but it’s still alive.

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:12

All the 70s and 80s kids are freaking out over the fact that you just said Candyland. 

Holly Chantal  09:17

Yeah, exactly. And, and so yeah, there’s there is a defined process. And what it really comes down to is those very foundational pieces of not just understanding your target audience demographically. So a lot of folks, they’ll create a whole description of their avatar and it’s Are they married? Do they have kids? What kind of industry are they in? What is their pay scale? And are they motivated and all those things, but what they’re missing are the psychographics of what is their day to day look like in relation to your problem and what symptoms are they experiencing? That they don’t realize their symptoms? And you and we find those things because those are the real hook to use in your marketing is when someone can see themselves and the content you’re creating. They, they lean in, and they realize that you really get them. So that’s step one. And then step two is, is being able to describe how you work. So the basically the message that you’re using with your clients, and why, why it works. So why do you do things the way you do. And this is really important, because I find that most, especially coaches and consultants, when you look at the offers on their website, it’s all about what’s included. It’s not what the modality is, what the what the logic is behind the modality with their philosophy, and their point of view is about why they do things this way. And so what happens is, is this, what this is why prospects will compare prices, because it’s yeah, it’s like apples to apples, well, this person is going to give me this number of calls, that person is going to give me that number of calls, and they say they’re going to tick all these boxes. But if you don’t have that underlying method, and philosophy behind why your offer is going to work, it it they’re very apples to apples, when they could be comparing apples to oranges in prices completely irrelevant. Yeah. And that’s what we really need to dial into when you’re selling offers that are like, three 5000 and up is you really have to dial in that method, I’d say like, you know, when your offers more like commodity, like when you’re starting out, and you’re really kind of figuring out what that is, and you’re just selling coaching, it’s a little bit simpler. But the more you dial in that and refine your message, the higher the prices are the concern and the more ideal clients you’re going to get because they just really resonate on a whole other level.

Heather Pearce Campbell  11:52

What percentage and I’m you know, I don’t know how many clients you’ve worked with over the years, but what percentage would you say, have their messaging on point like, are pretty close to nailing the mark and just need a little tweaking versus people who really need to start from the ground up and really have outside help getting their messaging? Right.

Holly Chantal  12:13

So that’s a really interesting question. I’m not, not sure what the percentage would be, because there’s a couple different stages that I work with. One is the beginning stages, which they they feel so foggy on what they’re offering that it’s very clear like you need, you need to be walked through it, just because it’s part of the exploration process of figuring out your business. Yeah. And so I call that that. There’s actually three stages of brands. So there’s, that’s the experimental stage, we haven’t really quite figured out what your major is yet, you’re experimenting a little bit. And so that’s a really kind of frustrating hamster wheel to be on. Because you’ll go through a lot of different exercises, a lot of different programs in regards to who your target audiences and what you’re offering. And every time you feel like you have it, you say to someone, give someone like, this is what I do, and they don’t get it and you feel like you have to start over again, or you’ll start marketing, but you’re not getting clients. So you stop and start over again. So that’s a really frustrating place to be. And those folks, they’re actually they’re usually much closer than they think it’s just the confidence piece and the having the validation that they’re on the right track, but they’re missing. So they’re not taking it far enough to actually be able to create a tangible result. So I’d say that percentage is pretty high. And I find that that stage lasts about 18 months. If you’re not if you don’t get help. So if you’re taking programs, and you’re kind of doing things on your own, and you find yourself revisiting those things over and over again, it takes about 18 months before you realize, I think it’s because when you start your business, you give yourself that first year to kind of figure things out, then once you’re like halfway through the second year, and you’re spending more than you’re making you start questioning, okay, like, I like I gotta get this done, or this isn’t gonna work. Yeah. So the the other folks that I work with are those that are really far along, they’re usually already six figures. And what they want is more consistent leads, they want to raise their prices, they want to be attracting, you know, a more ideal client rather than just taking whoever’s coming to them. And for those folks, it’s so funny because their marketing will be very general, again, like what’s included and, and that kind of thing. But when you talk to them, the level of knowledge and insight and expertise that they have is just so tremendous, that my job is super easy, because I can just ask them the right questions and pull out exactly what their need for their marketing. So for them, I say like they’re like 80% 80% of the way there, but it’s that 20% That makes a difference because obviously they have things that are Working. But if we bring in that 20% It just, it just takes things to a whole nother other level very, very quickly.

Heather Pearce Campbell  15:08

Yeah, really, it’s interesting, you know, the piece that you mentioned about confidence early on. And, and also the the fact that, you know, entrepreneurs bump up very quickly against the reality that they don’t have a lot of time or money to waste, right. And that turn of like testing out your messaging, testing out your offer, getting feedback from the marketplace, I would imagine that’s particularly true where somebody has, you know, created, you know, launch their business or getting into the consulting or coaching space, and doesn’t yet come from a background where they may be already feel like the expert, right, versus somebody who’s had a whole career or or been inside of the corporate world, or somehow comes with the experience of knowing exactly who they’re there for. I think that message can get dialed in a lot more quickly. Right. But it is it does all come down to experience and confidence. Yes, definitely. Yeah. So with your folks that are more advanced, that you say are 80% of the way there, what are you generally focusing on for those people? Because I imagine that could be a lot of my listeners, right? They’ve they’ve been around a bit they’ve, they’re in the Expert Space coaching, consulting, you know, expert positioning, regardless of what they’re doing. What what do those listeners need to be watching for when it comes to their messaging, their marketing efforts? What how do you help them tweak something that’s decent to make it really great.

Holly Chantal  16:50

So that’s, that’s a really good question. They, this is like, this is where I completely nerd out, it’s so much fun. So there’s a lot of different directions we can go in here, but I’m gonna start with, it’s all about dialing in the nuances. So what I find when someone is established their experience and things are working, is they fall into certain language patterns that they’ve they’ve because they’ve been running their business so long, they describe things in a certain way, and it becomes habitual. And they don’t even realize it. And so what happens for them is when they decide they want to raise their price, or when they decide, okay, I want to go from one on one to groups, or I want to go from groups that are this size to this size. Like they decide they want to give their offer a different structured or a different audience. That’s where they run into problems, because they’ve been programmed to do a certain thing for so long that changing your price is not just changing the text on your website, and in your shopping cart. There’s a whole other level of audience that you need to be attracting, and they respond to different examples in your marketing. And when you’re filling groups, there’s again, a different there’s different marketing strategies for us. And there’s different ways that your group needs to appeal to the folks that are coming in. So at that point, it’s really dialing in the nuances and understanding. Not just like they picked your target audience who we want to attract, but like, specifically cherry picking the people that we want in your programs, and what do we need to do to cherry pick them out of that larger audience and position your service just for them. And that seems really limiting. Like when I say like, we’re just speaking to one person, but what the reality is we create multiple avatars, and we just speak to them one at a time. So we can still work with multiple audiences, multiple people. But if we’re really being strategic, then we’re just talking to one at a time and then bringing them into the offer that can fit a variety of people. The other thing is, when you’ve been doing something for so long, it can be very difficult for you because you’re so close to it to really understand what the magic is with your work. Because it’s so innate to you. It’s just second nature and you don’t realize the magic that you has. And so I’ve worked with a few folks that what they’re spotlighting in their offer because it makes so much sense for them because that’s why they created it, etc, is actually not what appeals to their audience. And it’s so frustrating because they’re like, this should this is the most amazing thing ever. Like I It helps me so much. And I can see it helping the people I’m talking to but for some reason, they’re not seeing it. They’re not signing up at least in the volume that they expect. And nine like what usually happens is is when we really go through the magic behind their method and how the program is put together and all those things we find other things to spotlight if we brought like to if you think of a stage production as the lead character, and then we have the supporting actors, your offers the same way like you have the lead singer nuances to spotlight the lead features are the lead results, etc. And then everything else takes a backseat, if you’re spotlighting the wrong thing. Sometimes that’s why you’re not getting the result that you expect. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:28

And is it that people just can’t see their own for lack of a better term, like their own special sauce? What makes their particular offer really? Or their services really great for their clients? How did like how do you close that gap for them?

Holly Chantal  20:47

Just having an objective view is is often really eye opening. So often, in our first conversation, before we even started working together, just the questions that I’m asking, they start looking at their their offer in a different way. I was talking to someone yesterday, we were talking about their target audience, and I just asked them a few questions. And they started taking their audience and immediately came up with three different avatars and theirs, they immediately they were like, I’ve never looked at it this way before. And it’s just because they hadn’t been asked the question. And this was before we started working together. So like, just imagine how much further she’s gonna take that. But it’s, it’s just have like, it’s just being able to take a different perspective, get out of that day to day. And because we are so close to our work that it’s and we have so much knowledge behind and so much expertise and experience, that when we’re saying things, they land differently for us than they would for someone that doesn’t come from with all that context behind it. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:49

Oh, it’s I’ve walked through exactly what you’re talking about, like I worked on my own website redesign and relaunch last year, and I got some coaching from somebody who is in the copywriting messaging space. And he was very generous, I paid him to help me with my about page, right. And he’s like, I just want you to write me your story. He gave me some parameters, but then we sat down together and what you’re talking about just getting the outside perspective, like he would look at whole sections and be like, you don’t need that, like, you can literally just take that whole section. And like it made me laugh inside, because I’m like, wow, that’s like totally irrelevant. And yet, once I reviewed it, from his perspective, made so much more sense, right. And I think it is just reflective of the fact that we’re all so close to our own stories, our own work our own, you know, everything, it can be really hard to change that perspective without really getting the assistance that we need. And the other point that you raise about people, you know, being in their industry, or their career or their work for so long, using certain lingo is that about like industry speak or something else.

Holly Chantal  23:07

It’s not just industry speak, it’s let’s say you’re describing your target audience in a certain way. And you’re writing content that is relevant to them, like teaching them strategies, and helping them recognize the problems that they’re having in their life. And that kind of thing. You get you get so engrained into who you’re talking to that when you shift who you’re talking to, it’s hard not to speak to the like when you’re talking to person two, it’s hard to not also speak to person one. So the example I give of just like the nuances in language, is that overwhelm can mean a lot of different things. And a lot of coaches or consultants use overwhelm, but without context around it. So they’ll say, Are you overwhelmed with your marketing? If someone is overwhelmed with their marketing, it means they don’t know what to do. But if you say, Are you overwhelmed with all of the things you’re having to do to market your business, it means they’re overwhelmed by the sheer amount of effort they’re having to put in. So it’s those nuances that make a big difference because someone that’s just overwhelmed with marketing is probably at the beginning stages, doesn’t have like it. There’s no there’s nothing in there that says they’re making any effort. So you might attract someone that is not going to be action oriented, where if you say your Are you overwhelmed with all of the things you’re having to do to market your business, then you’re talking to someone that is doing all the things and it’s crushing them. Another word that you can use is frustrated, which can be used interchangeably with overwhelmed and again means a totally different thing. So if I say Are you frustrated with marketing, it means they have to have been actually marketing in order to feel frustrated and they’re not. Their expectations are not being met because that’s what frustration is they had a plan is not working. Right? Yeah. So that means that you’re going to attract someone that is taking action and isn’t allowing themselves to be a victim of circumstances. So that’s why the psychographics between who like who is that ideal client are so important, because those word choices matter. And we configure on which words need to be used in which situation.

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:22

I love this piece so much. And as a lover of language and words, it is funny, because when you think about it, even just think about the people that you know in your life, and how differently they all use language. And I’ve learned this, even in the context of my marriage, I’m very literal, right? Where like, I have to have clarity, even to understand what somebody is saying. I will end up asking a lot of questions to try to get to that clarity, because a word choice was wrong or a little bit off or something. And so my brain is scrambling to try to figure out, well, did they mean that word choice? Or did they really just mean this other word? And they didn’t say it, you know, or whatever, so, and my husband can end up feeling like he’s getting deposed on the stand?

Holly Chantal  26:10

Being interrogated, right? Why are you interrogating? Because I don’t understand. That’s right. He wants to make sure I understand. So I respond appropriately. It’s that totally insane.

Heather Pearce Campbell  26:21

Yes, he’s very figurative. He wants me to just get the general concept. And he’s fine with that. And I, I really want to understand it with a level of clarity, that’s quite different. And so you know, even when I think about that, your examples that you just gave were excellent examples about how people can intend to say, a particular thing and not end up saying it, if they don’t have, right, real, real clarity on word choice.

Holly Chantal  26:50

You also brought up a really good point that we have different there’s different personality types. So there’s some people that using figurative speech will land and then there’s other people that need more literal, logical speech. And I find that a lot of heart centered entrepreneurs, have find find marketing extremely challenging, because they speak and feelings. So they’ll say Empower, they’ll say, they’ll use the words like overwhelm, because that’s it, that’s an emotional feel. It’s a, it’s a feeling word. And so they’ll, they’ll say these things that they’ll describe these results, or the feelings that someone’s going to have when they get those results. And they don’t expect they expect them to speak to themselves because it means so much to them. But the problem is that their words, and not everyone can feel the words as you’re saying them. So we need to mix it, we need to keep the emotional words because that’s, that’s who they are. And honestly, the people that are gonna do their best work with will speak, like, match that energy. And we match that with more clear explanations and tangible examples. And just things things that trigger for people being able to see themselves in that situation and recognize or ragged recognizing themselves being in that situation, those having those symptoms. So that’s, that’s kind of one of the things my clients say is that I translate for them. Human speak. So I have clients that literally all they do is, you know, we get on the phone, and they just, this is what I’m trying to say. And then I’ll say it back to them Be like, yes, that is human, thank you.

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:37

Well, it’s so true. You know, we laugh about it, but you raise this topic of translation and it like I really see that in people that are good at messaging and helping others do that the right way. It is a form of translation. And especially when you you know, I mean, we’ve talked about nuance, and the importance of using clarity in our language. And then there’s this whole other overlay you just mentioned of personality types, like who are you talking about? And, you know, I’m a little curious whether you have because I know there’s lots of approaches out there to understanding or communicating with people better based on you know, categorizing them as a certain type of personality. So, like, I don’t know if you know, Jane power’s she was on this podcast really early on after I launched it. But I been to several of her events as a speaker and she’s got a system. I think hers is called code to close, but she categorizes people as catalysts. optimizers, experts and relators. Right? So it’s four simple labels. And I know there’s a gazillion other systems out there but I think because I was at the event and I sat through like hours of her training on this like it’s stuck. And I remember that and and we think about that, especially when you come across a copy where you’re like, oh my gosh, this is totally one how 100% Talking to catalysts or like you just mentioned, this is totally 100% Talking to the relators of the world. And I think it’s really interesting when you look at copy to wonder, is it intentional? Like, for example, do you work with clients that really only need to be working with Catalyst unit, I mean, and if they’re clear on that, helping them design their language in that way.

Holly Chantal  30:25

So I don’t teach anything about that. But I do use a profiling system that the that they’ve used in government. And so I’m not the person certified in it, but I have my business partner is, she’s a human behavior expert, she’s certified and licensed in the US to use that. And so I’ll kind of run sales pages through her. And she also co leads my long term implementation mastermind. And so, so we do use those those things and within the categories that they have, like, the thinkers versus the Harmonizers, and the way, not just the way you speak and communicate, but for instance, there’s a certain personality type that you have to challenge them in order to like, keep them keep them engaged. And so there’s like certain points in the copy where you’ll put just this like, kind of pattern interrupt. And and it’s this all sounds really complicated. But it’s very natural when you’ve been doing it for a really long time, right? And it’s like, I do teach my clients how to kind of just create natural patterns and communicate in a natural way. So a pattern interrupt is actually just something you do naturally. Right. But But yeah, that’s, that’s what you’re talking about is spot on is when you and that’s why the first step is understanding those target profiles. Like we’re literally profiling them, like you see on those, like serial killer shows. A lot less morbid. Right, right. Well, it’s like creating these like psychographic profiles so that we understand how to communicate with them. And where it’s not, like, I want to be careful, because I know a lot of people teach like the psychology behind selling, it’s kind of like in a manipulative way. This is not at all that it’s really okay, how do we communicate with people? How do we translate between these different types of minds and personalities? Because it until it doesn’t work? I had no, no idea how different everyone is like, the way we’re wired is just, I can say something to one person, and it lands completely different than to say it to someone else. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  32:50

It’s so true. And the thing that I think is really beneficial about understanding this particular point is, and for anybody who’s ever even gone through one of those online programs, like have you ever checked out crystal knows, there’s an online? Yeah, so it’s like that, but you use it for social networking, right. So you could like run somebody’s public profile, I think through it. And it would tell you based on the language that they’ve used to populate their profile or their website or whatever, what you know, would tell you some really interesting things about their personality and how to relate to them in a meaningful way. And again, I hear your point around, you know, not wanting to use any of these things in a manipulative way. I think just the more that we can do to understand our clients and potential clients like across the board, it improves our ability to communicate with them, right, and decrease friction and decrease stress. So like a couple of examples in my business. As I started a program that is called My catalyst club, and I didn’t do any big lunch, I just started talking about it. And I would talk about it with new clients that came my way and it’s kind of a higher level small business legal program. And the first enrollee I just knew, like, 10 minutes into our conversation, he’s a catalyst, I could just tell like, he moves at a very fast pace, he makes decisions and kind of figures things out later, right. And so, on the call, we had like a one hour call on the call, he’s like, Okay, I know, I need that program. Let me go figure out how to make cash flow work, and I’ll be back to you. Right. And I was like, okay, that’s exactly what he’s gonna go do. And sure enough, like, a week later, he was back and he was like, yes, let’s do it. That’s a 25k program. Right? So it’s, it takes a little bit of an investment, people get a ton out of it. But my next conversation was with somebody who, in the first few minutes, I was like, this is an expert. This is somebody who’s very, you know, step by step also going to take some time to make this decision, because he’s got to go look at options in the marketplace, but I knew not to stress out Like he, you know, he was going to go away for a time and then he was going to come back. And that’s what he did, right? Yeah. Like, yeah, a week or two weeks later, he came back. And he said, Well, you know, I went and I met with five other law firms, and I, you know, talked with them about their options and who they serve. And anyways, he came back. And it was just interesting to watch that knowledge and play, right? Because I, it was so clear in both of the of those examples, and

Holly Chantal  35:27

it’s cool how it takes so much pressure off of you.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:29

Yes, I realized, like, I didn’t need to do any chasing with either of them. I just knew what their personality was going to require that they go due, before they made that decision. And, you know, in that way, I think it can really serve people to have that understanding so that they can have conversations that are easeful because they just know how what what’s going to make a client comfortable and what kind of time they need to make a decision or what the pattern is going to look like. And it doesn’t have to be shoving everybody through this same system designed a certain way. Right?

Holly Chantal  36:07

It’s really cool how it understanding your your audience can, it doesn’t just affect your marketing, it also affects you and knowing if someone’s a good fit or not. And I’ve read I run into that, too, where it’s like, you lose the sale, and the and you’re like, but I could have helped that person. But then you think about it. And it’s like, pert like, were they? Did they fit the probe? Did they fit that part of the profile? Would they have gotten the most out of this program? Right? Or would it have been a lot of work of you having to bridge the gaps and translate for them? When it’s not your natural communication style?

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:42

Right? And it is a question that I feel like people should be asking themselves, because I think there are a lot of folks that I’m sure you’ve crossed paths with them, that could help catalysts. optimizers experts relators, like whatever the labels are, right? They can help a wide variety of people. And the question is, do you know, do you feel great in your business, if each of those types of clients requires a slightly different approach, like the way that I would work with a relator, it’s a lot more hand holding a lot more like relationship building and helping them feel really supported. The expert, he doesn’t need any of the rah rah rah, you can do it, he’s going to do it, right. He just needs really clear guidelines and step by step of like, here’s how it’s going to happen.

Holly Chantal  37:30

Right? And here’s what’s interesting about that is, so I don’t I don’t use the kind of profiles that you’re talking about as terms, right. But we’ll just say like, expert like there’s, so every every thing that has a light in a dark side. So any type has a light in the dark side. And so what you’ll find is, people present differently if they’re in distress or not. So if you are attracting experts in distress, they might show up completely differently. And it, they might be really difficult to work with. I don’t know about experts. So I don’t know if that’d be true. But like, understanding, understanding those things is so important, because it affects how you work together and understanding if they’re just in distress. And it has nothing to do with you. Yeah, that’s really interesting. And how to get them out of distress, usually should have a conversation with my partner, Michelle, because I think you guys would have a really interesting conversation because she like, this is her area of nerdiness. And it’s you guys. Like, it’s a very deep conversation.

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:39

It is right. I know, we’re just scratching the surface. But I think when it comes to messaging, it’s so relevant, right? Thinking through this, of, of who am I really speaking to, you know, what type of personality types do I want to work with most? And that’s not to say that you have to exclude any particular types, but you could tailor your language towards, you know, it’s it’s the exercise, you run people through it really attracting who their very ideal client is. Right. But I think sometimes you’re right, that even the ideal client exercise stays really surface level for a lot of people and they don’t do it the right way. Yeah. What, what do you find, because I imagine that people come to you, especially if they’re getting a new website or needing to revamp their messaging, and they show up one way, and then by the time the project is done, like I’m curious what shifts you see in the person, whether it’s through their online work even in from a personality perspective,

Holly Chantal  39:44

which is do I see in the person? What shifts you see? Yeah, so it’s really interesting because when people come to me, they typically have their offer. They’ve been doing it for a while. They’re they’re experts. And when we dig into these nuances, as it brings a different light to their work, and they understand it much more deeply, which means they can usually take it much further, and they have more confidence. So it’s really fun to watch the transformation of getting someone into their element. And then like nerding out with them exploring these different angles and asking these questions that people haven’t asked them before, and then bringing that to the forefront of their marketing, it gets really exciting because they realize there’s these pieces that are, again, are just so natural to them, that when they get to talk about them, it’s actually bringing a part of their inner workings out, and they get to show up in a different way. And it’s, it’s exciting to see that other side. And it makes them more effective. Because sometimes, when you’re doing things unconsciously, and it’s so natural, you can’t put your finger on what it is you’re doing. But when you can, when you see like the pattern and the process that you’re using every single time and you don’t even notice it, then you can start refining it. And you can start describing it. And you can start taking this step a little bit further, because you realize, oh, like, I could go a little bit further in there. I could go a little bit deeper on that in that area, and what would that do for my client? So it’s really it’s really cool. Watching someone go through that transformation, they usually when we’re done, it’s not just, you know, the messaging that they have, but it’s actually like a whole new appreciation for their own work, and a whole new level of confidence in themselves as an expert.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:35

Well, I’m Yes. And that’s what I anticipated. Like in my mind, the work that you do kind of feels like like a makeover, right? Like somebody has a whole new level of competence coming out the other side because of the process that you walk them through. And the difference between somebody and I’m curious where most people intersect with you? Are they like in the middle of a website redesign? Or are they just updating their, their web pages because you any longer do the website design portion? Or is it just…

Holly Chantal  42:08

I just do website design, I do partner with a designer for some of my clients that their rebrand, like if they’re doing a full rebrand, then that makes sense. Most of the time, I’m working with people that were working within the confines of their current website so that they don’t have to do a whole overhaul. But we’ve worked with the lab, they haven’t just kind of fill in the blanks with different copy. But usually they’re coming to me when they’ve reached a plateau in their business, or they’ve reached a point in their business where something needs to change in order for them to take things further. Sometimes it’s a new revenue milestone that they want to reach. And other times that’s I’m feeling burned out, I can’t take on any more one to one clients, I need to be spending less time in my business because it’s starting to consume me. And you wouldn’t think that messaging would have anything to do with that. But it absolutely does. Because if you’re able to shift your offers into something more leveraged, if you’re able to have a website that is actually converting for you. They can you can build much simpler marketing systems and be spending a lot less time and effort marketing your business and getting the same number of clients. So there’s just a lot of creativity there in how we solve the problem. But the method is primarily messaging and and system. So you kind of mentioned in my intro, like the infrastructure on underpinning your business, those are the things that we’re focusing on.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:32

Yeah. Well, and I imagine it’s the difference, like I was having a conversation with another gentleman who works specifically on website design, like the difference between having somebody be a little bit like apologetic about their current website, like when it’s not a fit, right going. It’s not really current or updated, versus really helping their message shine and be updated and have the clarity that they need. I could see a direct impact on somebody’s level of confidence in actually driving traffic to the website, using it referring people to it for resources or whatever else is there.

Holly Chantal  44:13

Right, exactly.

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:14

Yeah. Now, you mentioned something really interesting about the relationship between messaging and even like your time spent in your business, right. And I know before going live, we had talked a little bit about your personal experience as a mom overlaid with the pandemic and you know, being a business owner yourself. Do you want to share a little bit about how you because it sounds like you cut down your work substantially during the pandemic and you were able to squeeze it down into a few hours a day. I’m sure that there are many people listening. If you’re like me and have not been able to do that, so successfully. I’d love to hear you know more about your process and what worked for you 

Holly Chantal  45:00

Yeah, so I have three kids, I have an eight year old, a six year old and a two year old. So, back, you know, seven, eight years ago, I made a big shift in my business to working only 20 hours a week. That was a huge like, I don’t even talk about that, because it was not really pretty like me, it was a whole hot mess for a couple years there. More recently, though, we’ll talk about the different for the more sophisticated version, which is, when everything shut down in March 2020, I had the kids come home from school, like, there was their home with me and had to homeschool had my husband home, everything. And I only had two hours a day to serve my clients. Because that was the my husband who has a traditional job. He could only give me two hours, like he blocked off two hours a day in his meetings, so that he could watch the kids while I did whatever I could in those two hours. So what I did was, I took the same programs that I had, and then restructure them into evergreen group programs. So all I had to do was minimal marketing. And any clients that came to me, I wasn’t setting up new, new new one on one clients, they were going into one of these groups. So I had established Wednesdays at these times, or when I have meetings and during this time of day, that’s all I had to do to serve. And I think I had like 20 clients at the time. So I was serving 20 clients in about two hours a week. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:36

And was that through like an office hours type of format? Or was it individual, like when you say serving 20 clients, they were already in a group? 

Holly Chantal  46:44

So there were structure programs, there’s the group that was for those that are starting out. And then there was the groups of there was the group for those that were further along and making like a big transition to like that next evolution. So the difference between them, the folks that were starting out, they were going through a program. So the branding game that we talked about earlier, they were going through the modules and the branding game. And I the way I have it set up is this has changed since then. So it’s not how it is right now. But at that time, they would do their assignment, and then they would submit an RSVP form with their questions ahead of time, so that I could prepare offline. Yeah. And then when I got on the phone, I was able to what I would do is just kind of find the common threads between what they what they were dealing with at that time and the questions people have. And I would do like a quick 10 minute reset, and reframe about what they were, what was going on and give them the piece they needed. And then I would go through answering individual questions. And then with the folks that are further along, in my Trailblazers programs, they made that progress always been. So they, they show up and and it’s just a group coaching call with you know what, what they’re working on it again, I’m monitoring them on an individual basis as far as where they are on their projects. But the point that point was that I was able to get the client work into about two hours a week. So then the other days were spent with the marketing. So I might schedule a podcast interview, like during that time, or webinar during that time, or that’s when I wrote my emails. So it was I was really, I streamed everywhere streamline everything down to like, one marketing funnel into these two programs. And that’s all I did for 2020. And then to 2021, I stepped it up and started getting JV partners. So I’m actually still doing the same strategy, though I do work one on one now with people because the kids are back in school.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:48

Moms everywhere are celebrating.

Holly Chantal  48:52

So I do work with one on one clients now, but I still have the two groups, then they’re still running. And so my strategy now is I do a webinar once a month, and I have three to four partners promote it. And I also have my own email list. But it’s it’s very minimal. It’s minimal work, you know, I still only working four hours a day. And I’m able to get it all done with time to spare often, because my systems are so so simple. And part of it is just having you have to have a system that works. And once you have it working, it’s just a matter of bringing in lead sources and driving traffic through it. And there’s so many different ways you can do that. And so now I need to focus more on being able to serve my clients in ways that I prefer to serve them.

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:40

And how nice to be in a position where you can create that flexibility for yourself, right, like you’ve created these phenomenal resources that live inside of a course that you could, you know, restructure and reuse. And, you know, I think the goal for so many experts is to quit eat their version of that, right resources that help them deliver their work more efficiently, help them limit their time, and then give them flexibility to take on one on one clients as they want to not as they need to. Right?

Holly Chantal  50:15

Yeah, and the part that was game changing, is making the program’s evergreen. So I think a lot of times when people are doing group programs, they feel like they need to start everyone at the same time. But I set it up so that there’s an onboarding process before they join the group where that gets them up to speed and meets them where they’re at. And then they can join the group. So you can really be enrolling people all the time. Because obviously, like, I did not have time to do a launch, right? So yeah, like I said, Everything started in March, I had my baby in May.

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:51

I say your baby was like, right at the start of the pandemic.

Holly Chantal  50:55

Yeah. So I got, I think I got a week off. Oh, my God, for the first three months, all I was doing on those calls, I wasn’t doing any marketing. So it was really just that two hours a week that I was just making sure I was serving my current clients. But yeah, so I mean, I feel like if that can be done under duress, there’s so many options available to people that they don’t even realize as alternatives to the way they’re running the business, how they’re delivering their programs. And we can get really, like really creative in how to structure how to deliver how and how to position them so that you can really have any kind of business model that fits your lifestyle.

Heather Pearce Campbell  51:37

Well, as I hear you talking, It just occurs to me that it sounds like the work that you’re doing with your clients is actually so much more than messaging.

Holly Chantal  51:47

And messaging is the first part like that’s where we start. But I have clients that I’ve been working with for years. And those clients, it’s, you know, messaging is a piece of it. So I’m helping them on a date, like on a week to week basis, this is what you need to be saying in your marketing. But there’s also the that that business model and the infrastructure and the systems piece that we’re really working on behind the scenes. And then I have Michelle leaving with me which she’s managed. She’s managing with the mindset and human communication behavior pieces. So it’s really like a full circle support system.

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:24

Right? Well, I mean, all these tentacles wrapped around each other. And they’re all intertwined, right? It’s really it is like a puzzle. Oh, my gosh, so fun. And I feel like we could just keep talking and talking about this. For folks that are listening. Where do you like to show up online, Holly?

Holly Chantal  52:42

So my website is hollychantal.com. Chantal is C-H-A-N-T-A-L. And that’s really the best place to find me. There’s a contact form on there, if you want to reach out with any questions. And I also have, on the homepage, there’s a PDF you can download, that kind of talks about some of these messaging underpinnings we’re talking about is called the buyers arc. And it talks about the decision making process that that your prospects are going through when they’re deciding to hire you, and then how to align your marketing with each of those decision points. So like kind of what to say, at each point to kind of guide them through that decision making process really easily.

Heather Pearce Campbell  53:24

I love that if you’re listening, hop over and we’ll share all of these links, including any links you want us to share with your social media pages.

Holly Chantal  53:31

 I’ll send you a link that goes directly to the virus or two in case people want to read all

Heather Pearce Campbell  53:35

Perfect. Perfect. So we’ll share those at the show notes page pop over to legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast and find Holly’s episode. Holly, what I mean, I know there’s so much that we’ve talked about and that people will have a chance to dig into including with the help of your resource. What final either takeaway or action step would you like to leave people with today?

Holly Chantal  53:58

It’s a really good question, because we talk a lot with different things. Usually when someone asks me that question, like something immediately pops up. We talked about a lot of things today. So first step, let’s say think about, I really, you know, go eat some ice cream. That’s the next step.

Heather Pearce Campbell  54:15

Right? You haven’t had enough coffee, get caffeinated, have a little dose of sugar that always gets my brain going. Oh my gosh, I’ll just admit to having the tiredness week like all of this last week, every fall. There’s a week where I feel like all I could do is sleep. And I’ve been having that. And I’m like, what is it? Is it fall? What’s going on? Like, did I get COVID and this is my version of COVID is just being so tired. So I’m with you. I don’t know if it’s Mom Brain or what it is. But yeah, I guess if you were to be working with a client right and having them go evaluate something about their current message, is there something that you’d want them to go look at as a starting point?

Holly Chantal  55:00

Yeah, so I would look at what’s, what do you feel is working really well in your business? And then what do you feel it like? Intuitively if like, what does your intuition say is missing from your business. So if you keep setting the same goals, if you are finding that you’re at the same revenue levels, or worse, like your revenue is going up and down, and it feels really unpredictable. Like ask yourself tune in and ask yourself, what do you feel is missing? That would change the situation? Because oftentimes, we’re kind of just chasing what’s next. And again, going through the motions and doing doing those next steps over and over again. But we’re not taking a step back and looking at okay, what’s actually working, what’s not working? What can be eliminated, and what, what is really missing here, actually, you know, little personal vulnerability note here, I went into a tailspin a couple of weeks ago, because something wasn’t working. And I almost just trashed everything and started over, like, started my offer over. I was like, Alright, I’m going to survey my audience. I’m going to just restructure the offer. I’m gonna, it’s like, it turns out, we were talking about personality types. When I went back through all the persons that people I talked to, none of them were personality fit. So it wasn’t actually the offer. That was the problem is when I went back to all the surveys that I’ve done before. It even the recent answers to whenever someone registers for a webinar, they get a survey, it all was in alignment with what I was already doing. So I almost like went down this huge rabbit hole, because I have like a two week panic attack.

Heather Pearce Campbell  56:40

What happened?

Holly Chantal  56:41

And when I took a step back and actually looked at the facts, I realized, Oh, this is working. It’s just the wrong audience. They’re the wrong audience on this particular webinar. Totally fine. Yeah. In the next webinar I did, it was fine, like perfectly normal, had people signing up, there was nothing broken. It was okay. Yeah. I was just taking that step back can be really tremendously helpful.

Heather Pearce Campbell  57:02

That’s such a great example. It’s, you know, it’s proof that reevaluating the plan is often harder than just executing the original plan, right, which is why a lot of people don’t do that often enough reevaluate, like is the plan working? And like you just mentioned, is it something else unrelated to the messaging or that particular thing? Because if it’s a disconnect, and you’ve just got a group of the wrong people in there, maybe it’s just about shifting audiences. And that, you know, keeps you out of that turn that we talked about at the start, right, of changing everything, because you get some feedback that you think should you know, make you question what it is that you’re doing? Well, Holly, I’m so glad to be able to connect with you. Again, thank you for popping on here and having a conversation about a variety of things related to messaging or websites being a mom, it’s really great to have you. 

Holly Chantal  57:59

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is a lot of fun. Absolutely.

GGGB Intro  58:05

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.