With Melanie Herschorn, a content marketing strategist and coach for consultants, coaches, and speakers worldwide, with a mission to support and empower her clients to create clear messaging and content that shines a light on their individual experience, skillset, and books. With her unique combination of entrepreneurship, award-winning journalism and PR experience, Melanie guides her clients to attract and nurture leads and position themselves as industry experts. She also loves to provide book marketing tips and interview authors on her show, AUTHORity Marketing LIVE to help you leverage your book to grow your online influence, sell more books & get more clients.

A small business owner since 2012, Melanie understands the entrepreneurial journey and that it truly takes a village. She has worked as a print, radio, and TV journalist and as a PR specialist in Hollywood. She has won numerous journalism awards and received her Master’s Degree in Broadcast Journalism from the University of Southern California. Melanie lives in Phoenix, AZ with her husband, daughter and son, and her Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Marty McDog. 

Join us for this conversation where we talk about what you need to know in launching an effective book marketing strategy. You will enjoy hearing Melanie share her tips and takeaways to attract quality leads and nurture them to become your next best readers and clients.

>Subscribe to Guts, Grit & Great Business on Apple Podcasts

Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

• Listen to Melanie share her devastating story involving hiring a marketing expert for her previous business
• Hear Melanie’s take on authenticity and why you don’t need to be “on a pedestal” to be an expert.
• There is a gap between having your book published and getting a publicist.
• “You(r books) don’t have to be published to start promoting.. the minute it’s written, you can start getting excitement.”
• What is considered the “granny panties” of marketing?

“When I work with my clients, we create their online presence not just for their book, but also for them as an author and a thought leader… your book and your brand are heavily intertwined.”

-Melanie Herschorn

Check out these highlights:

• 11:45 Melanie tells the pitfall of spending your time and money on publishing a book.
• 15:33 The first step Melanie takes with her clients
• 20:27 Melanie shares her mission and her favorite part of marketing.
• 26:10 What is a lead magnet?
• 42:51 Listen to Melanie’s final tip that will help you move out of overwhelm.

How to get in touch with Melanie:

On social media:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melherschorn

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vipdigitalcontent/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-herschorn/

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/melherschorn

Learn more about Melanie by visiting her website at https://vipdigitalcontent.com/. You may also book a complimentary Content Strategy Call with her, or listen to her podcast.

Special gift for listeners: Get The Ultimate Book Marketing Checklist here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what to expect today…

Melanie Herschorn  00:02

The people focus so much on the book itself and what the book is going to do. But it’s just like if you were to plan an amazing gala, and you had the venue and the food and your dress and all the things and you never sent out an invitation, nobody would come because they don’t know about it. And that’s what is the pitfall of spending all your time and sometimes all your money on creating and publishing the book, and then what comes next.

GGGB Intro  00:24

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:00

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, the The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business™. I am so excited to talk all things book and book marketing strategy with Melanie Herschorn today. Welcome, Melanie,

Melanie Herschorn  01:21

Thank you so much. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:22

Yeah, it’s so great to have you. So for those of you that don’t know Melanie, Melanie Herschorn wants to make your book and brand sparkle online, as a content marketing strategist for coaches, consultants and speakers worldwide. She’s on a mission to support and empower her clients to create clear messaging and content that shines a light on their individual experience, skill set and books. With her unique combination of entrepreneurship award winning journalism and PR experience. Melanie guides her clients to attract and nurture leads and position themselves as industry experts. She also loves to provide book marketing tips and interview authors on her show. Authority marketing live. Welcome, Melanie, Melanie’s coming to us from sunny Phoenix, Arizona.

Melanie Herschorn  02:04

It is sunny today, yes.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:06

That’s awesome! I can’t say that for Seattle.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:10

The one week I spent in Seattle. It was sunny the whole week. It was many, many years ago. But it was beautiful.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:18

This happens the number of times I’ve heard this from people. I’m like, Well, you got tricked. But no, I also say don’t come during the summer because people come visit during the summer. And then they see why the rest of us love it and stay here.

Melanie Herschorn  02:27

Stay home people.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:28

Right? No, it is amazing. I do love it during the summer. Well, Melanie, I’m so excited to have you today. So many of our listeners are experts. They’re entrepreneurs. They’re people that either have books or need to write a book. So share with us a little bit about your background and how you got in. It sounds like you started maybe in journalism, you’ve got journalism and PR experience. Talk to us about your journey.

Melanie Herschorn  02:47

Sure, well, it was definitely not linear. It was definitely more circuitous. But it definitely took me to where I am right now. And I’m so happy to be here. So I started out in PR. And then when a famous red headed comedian told me off on my birthday twice, I decided that I should do what was really calling to me at that point, which was to be a journalist. And I got a master’s in journalism. And then I went and I worked on radio, I was a radio news anchor for a few years. And then I got laid off when I was pregnant. You’re gonna see like a pattern emerge here that like I keep getting these swift kicks in the butt to take me in new directions. And I just don’t necessarily listen until I get hit upside the head.

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:26

The brick in the face.

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:27

Yeah, so laid off pregnant going, who’s gonna hire me now? And…

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:32

Well, laying you off when you’re pregnant is I mean, isn’t that the goal?

Melanie Herschorn  03:35

Yes. With you as an attorney we think that, yes. But they managed not to do it illegally, because it was a round of layoffs. They just sort of lumped me in there and yeah, so that way, it was technically legal. But you know what, I don’t regret that at all because I was living and breathing that job to the point where I planned a pregnancy as much as you can play In a pregnancy around a non-election year.

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:59

Oh my God.

Melanie Herschorn  04:01

So that I would be there for my team, you know?

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:04

Oh, heavens, yeah, that’s a totally different way to look at elections. Right, right.

Melanie Herschorn  04:08

Yeah, absolutely not an election year. So I get to have a baby. But it didn’t end up happening that way. Well, anyway. So after that, my husband and I moved from where we were in Pennsylvania to Arizona. And I thought, all right, well, I can go get a job as a journalist and make a boat loan, probably less money than I’ll be paying a nanny to watch my child. Or I could do something else that’s really tapping on my heart. What is it? Well, I want to design and manufacture breastfeeding clothing.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:33

Really? Wow, quite a shift.

Melanie Herschorn  04:35

Right? It’s just totally, you know, you go from being a journalist to doing that totally. Makes sense. No, but when you get to know me over the course of this podcast, you will see that, you know, when there’s something I don’t know, I don’t fear change. And when something is calling on me to do it, I’m just gonna do it. You’re a jumper. I’m a jumper. And I’m just going to figure out how to do it as I go. And so I designed and manufactured and I was selling my clothes on nordstrom.com. And I mean, I was hustling. And then I made a fatal error, which many of us make, I hired somebody to help me with my marketing. And I gave her lots and lots of money. And in return, I was belittled. And it was verbal and emotional abuse over the course of a year. And my husband kept saying, but you’re paying her and I said, I know. But I’m afraid of her. I’m afraid, I’m afraid that she’s going to, you know, smear my business on the internet. And then that’s it for me. Well, I eventually decided that I couldn’t take it anymore. And I wasn’t loving my business anymore. In fact, I was so upset. I couldn’t even open the door to my home office to go into the room in my house. Oh, much my existence. Yeah. I said, all right. And I closed it took a year, but I closed the business. And I was able to sever that relationship with that woman. And then I thought, Alright, well, what can I do now? You know, I have all this varied experience. Totally different. But at the same time, it’s all one thing, and it’s all marketing. And I can help entrepreneurs, who don’t know what they’re doing with their marketing, to know not only what they’re doing, but to be supported in it. Because that’s who I am, I am never going to make somebody feel bad, I’m always only going to be there as a champion for what they do. So I was doing that for a while until authors started coming to me. So they’re business owners who’ve written a book. And often what happens is, they are getting ready to publish what they’ve published. And then they realize that they don’t have any way for people to actually buy the book. I mean, sure, you can go on Amazon and press buy now. But how do you know that it’s on Amazon? And so when I work with my clients, what we’re doing is we’re creating their online presence, not just as for their book, but also for them as an author and a thought leader. Overall, because of your book and your brand, they are so heavily intertwined.

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:46

Are they often coming to you then before they’ve built out any kind of online presence for themselves? Is it like they wrote the book? And they’re like, now what?

Melanie Herschorn  06:53

Yes, pretty much. They wrote the book. And then they say, now what and you know, maybe their business has some stuff, but generally speaking, it’s not working for them. And I see this again and again, you know, somebody thinks that okay, I posted on Instagram that checks the box of my to do list, but is it actually doing anything for you?

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:13

Right, they need a platform for their personal brand, right? Are they usually personal brands that you’re working with?

Melanie Herschorn  07:56

Personal brands? Yes, generally speaking, they’re coaches, speakers, consultants who are the face of their brand and maybe they’re even afraid to show their face. And that’s happened.

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:32

Isn’t it interesting?

Melanie Herschorn  09:34

And so I’m so happy to be able to partner with these people who are really ready to step into thought leadership, and to not just hold up pictures of their book, right? Five minutes before we started this podcast, I was scrolling Facebook, and I saw a post from an author and the whole post was a picture for a book telling people where to buy it. And I cannot tell you how many I’ve seen of just that. And that gets really real. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:07

It’s like this gal that consulted with me. So from the legal side, I help these folks protect their online businesses by putting all of their agreements in place there, everything from their online legal protection to their client service agreements, book publishing agreements, sometimes with the big traditional publisher, sometimes with a smaller, independent publisher, in the right variety of ways. But there’s a, you know, trademarks, a wide variety of things that we do, but I had this gal show up, she’d written a book. And she’s like, you know, can we put some Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy in place for my website? And I looked, I was like, Okay, you have the book? What else do you do? Like, tell me about the rest of your business? And she’s like, Oh, well, it’s just the book. And it was so, like, temporarily uncomfortable. I had, I had to, like, gently ask her like, what’s your strategy around this? Like, what else are you doing with your website? Or your servant? You know, and I do see how some people think that book is such a big accomplishment, they haven’t really thought about what comes next. I don’t think that’s most experts, I think most experts at least have some initial strategy, probably not the marketing expertise that you have. They’re not a marketer, right? They’re an expert of whatever it is that they do. Right. So you happen to be somebody with marketing experience. And then you’ve applied it, it sounds like really heavily in the direction of folks who write books and need that strategy layered on.

Melanie Herschorn  11:34

Exactly, and it’s, you’ve touched on it beautifully. It’s the people who focus so much on the book itself, and what the book is going to do. But it’s just like, if you were to plan an amazing Gala, and you had the venue and the food and your dress and all the things and you never sent out an invitation. Nobody would come because they don’t know about it. And that’s, that’s what is, is the pitfall of spending all your time and sometimes all your money on creating and publishing the book. And then what comes next?

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:14

Yeah, well, it’s, it’s, I mean, there’s a whole game, I’m sure we can get into the whole, right, the ways that the publishing industry works, the games that people play, even within that, and you have to play the game, right. And sometimes it’s played on a really big scale, like people pre purchasing their own New York Times bestseller, right, or developing really big lists, or having bulk buys or events or like, there’s all of these strategies to help play that game. And you know, there are rules to that game. And at the same time, that book, the way that I think about businesses, and for my clients, you know, when we’re talking about their business, it’s like, a piece of machinery, there’s a lot generally going on with their client services, their teaching their workshops, their online presence, there’s all these components to their business book is just one more of those moving parts making up that overall, like larger piece of machinery, right? 

Melanie Herschorn  13:16

it is. And it is a goldmine of content. And so when I work with clients, we mine from the book, and we create a whole marketing strategy, not just for the book, but for the brand as a whole. Because, you know, as I mentioned, when you’re holding up a picture, while holding up your book and smiling next to it, that’s fantastic. Do that if you want, it’s not going to get you the book sales from people who don’t know you, though, what will get you the book sales and help you fill your programs and all that stuff that you really want is to have that platform in place. So people can just show up to your, your LinkedIn and go, Oh, that’s what that person is. Oh, that’s what their book is about. And more. So your mission behind it. So your mission, why did you write the book in the first place? And then your messaging how you talk about that book and your brand?

Heather Pearce Campbell  14:21

Yeah, so much good stuff there. I mean, the interesting thing about all of this, and like you even mentioned LinkedIn, like wherever they’re showing up, like your strategy. It’s like a puzzle, right? It all has to be connected. It all has to lead people down a potential client journey or a path and I think a lot of experts probably don’t think of all of the ways that the various components even of their online presence need to work together.

Melanie Herschorn  14:50

That’s so true. And so sometimes I say to clients, you know, I’m steering I’m steering the ship. You know, I’m steering the ship and everything or I kind of like Don’t mix metaphors. So it’s not going to make any sense. But yes, it’s the puzzle pieces, I put all the puzzle pieces together. And then I steer the puzzle in the right direction. If your puzzle needs to go somewhere, apparently.

Heather Pearce Campbell  15:13

Right? So what would be one of the very early things that you do as clients, when you’re looking, let’s pretend you’ve got somebody they show up, they’ve got a book, maybe they’ve got, you know, a consulting service or something else that they generally provide as kind of their main work? Where do you start with them?

Melanie Herschorn  15:33

Auditing, I take a look at what’s there, we figure out what’s working, because sometimes things are working. And we want to do more of that. And then sometimes things are really not working at all. I mean, I had a client who was paying a company to post on LinkedIn for her. And one of our first meetings, I, you know, everybody, we’re on Zoom, this is the world we live in. Now you share your screen. So we shared my screen, and I had her LinkedIn page up, and we’re scrolling post after post of generic just fluff fluff. I’m reading it out loud to her. And I’m saying Does this sound like, you know, and these pictures are not really speaking to anybody, these stock photos, you know, these free stock photos. That’s a whole other thing, which I’m sure you. Yeah, I’m reading your mind here. But for those who aren’t, it’s that you can’t just post random stock photos and not give credit where credit is due, etc. So these random stock photos that are not exciting anybody not bringing, and we’re scrolling, she’s got like, No comments. One, like…

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:54

People are cringing right now, right and online, who’s suffering or struggling with social media, like you are not alone. 

Melanie Herschorn  17:02

No. You’re not alone, but you’re not born knowing this stuff. It’s not your fault. I spend my days being you know, being an expert in this because this is my jam. This is where I am. And you don’t have to do that you get to stay in your lane in your zone of genius. And so do you. So when I showed her and you know, when you read something out loud, it makes it worse. So I’m reading this out loud, and she’s like, Yeah, she’s cringing. She’s like, Okay, this doesn’t sound like me. I said, Okay, so why don’t we? Why don’t we write something that does sound like you. And so I sat there typing something out with her. So she’s giving input. I’m helping with structure. And, you know, we came up with a really great post. And that was kind of the beginning of that for her because she realized that you, you know, yes, it’s great to hire out. It’s great to have people doing the things that you don’t want to do. But if you’re not watching what’s happening with your marketing, I mean, you wouldn’t just let some rant, you wouldn’t hire a sales person to just go off and, and talk to whomever and say, whatever. Yes, say, Whatever. Don’t do that for your marketing either.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:23

Yeah, well, in any time, like, I feel like, really anywhere in our business, and whether it’s marketing, whether it’s sales, but I think a lot of people have this around marketing. Like it’s like this cringe of like, oh, my gosh, I you know, I know, I have a lot to say, how do I, how do I structure it? How do I know, how do I choose just the right thing? How do I do it in the right order? How do I do this whole entire strategy over the course of a month or a year, where it all fits together? And make sense, right? It’s a much bigger, more complex puzzle, sometimes I think, than it needs to be, but for sure, that’s how it feels to people. Yeah. And so they just either don’t get started or they have the wrong person handling it because their brain hurts every time they go to try to sit down and like really chunk it down.

Melanie Herschorn  19:13

Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes they think that it’s not important to spend money on their marketing. They’d rather spend it on getting really cute stickers with their logo on it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:25

All the ways let’s go through the big long list of ways that people spend money in their business on things that right oh my gosh, don’t get me started.

Melanie Herschorn  19:33

Another new program, or oh my one of my favorites, gets 365 posts for the so you have your entire year of content written for you for $27 Oh my gosh. So that’s that’s the thing. I mean, marketing, you know, there are some good people and then there’s some people who are not as wonderful and the not as wonderful people try to. You sell these cookie cutter plans. And you can’t do marketing cookie cutter. You can’t say like, do this, write this. It’s got to be authentically you and authentically your brand.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:15

Yeah, you can’t force your business into somebody else’s template. What is it that you personally love about marketing?

Melanie Herschorn  20:24

Oh, goodness, okay. So my mission is really to help amplify authors’ voices online, because they get to make this world a better place with their book. And then I get to help make this world a better place by helping them highlight their voice. So my favorite part of marketing? Well, I guess it’s twofold. My favorite part of my business is working with my clients, when they get that aha moment. I had a client say to me the other day, you were worried, like, she said, she gave like $1 amount, the total dollar amount of my program, she goes, that one thing you taught me was worth that much. And, and that was just one thing of things that we Yes. So it’s those aha moments when they go, okay, I get this now. And I understand it. So marketing in general, what I love about marketing is I love learning about people. I love learning that stems from my journalism days, my favorite thing is to interview people. I love to learn about them. It’s hard for me to do the interview II. Because I just want to ask more questions about you.

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:45

So funny. I was just talking with a guy yesterday. He’ll be on the podcast soon. We were talking about the Colby test. Have you ever taken the Colby test like a personality test, but I’ve heard of it, you’re probably really high on factfinder, which is the first category right? As a journalist and somebody who really likes to dig into information, ask a ton of questions. I’m high on factfinder, as well, really high. So yeah, I was just thinking like, Oh, my goodness, the journalist in you and like how much you enjoy interacting with clients and asking questions and digging all of that out. Super fun. So you love the client side of the work and love the client side? Do your clients tend to fall into certain categories? Like are there books? Can they be on anything? Do you sort of find certain trends within your client group?

Melanie Herschorn  22:32

If I told you my current client roster you will just burst out laughing. So one, actually, one client recently was a hypno, fertility specialist, helping women get and stay pregnant with Hypno fertility. Another client who I’ve had the pleasure of working with for some months now has written an incredible book on olive oil, revealing what we as consumers do not know. In North America, we are buying rancid olive oil. And we don’t even know. And so we’re not getting this

Heather Pearce Campbell  23:12

It is so sad. Right? I need this book. Right?

Melanie Herschorn  23:16

Do you need this book? And he also has his own olive oil brand that tastes. I mean, I cannot explain to you that when I tried this out loud I went, Oh my God. That’s what all the oils are supposed to taste like. I didn’t know I always only ever had the rancid stuff. So he’s on a mission to empower consumers toward, you know, being knowledgeable and buying the right stuff. I have a client who has developed a children’s book series, all about moms not doing things for their kids. And, I have another client who is a leadership expert. And she focuses on leader leaders looking within and fixing what’s going on within to basically improve corporate culture as a whole. So what is the common thread between those four people, and I will say with the children’s book, the goal is independence and confidence, instilling independence and competence in children. So the common thread is that each one of them is on a mission to improve what they can in their lane. Whether it’s consumer empowerment, or moms not having to wipe their child’s bum anymore and having confident children. It’s all pointed at making this world better. Now, you know what, you hear this a lot. It’s, you know, if you can make things better by the time you leave here You can go somewhere and leave it just a little bit better than if you’ve really done something magical. Yeah, I love that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:09

So, you know, first of all, I can tell that you thrive in your interactions with clients and in your work. And I love that that shines out like that your whole demeanor changes when I asked you, what is it that you love about marketing? What do you see happening on the client side? Right, I’d love to hear about the client journey where they start from like, I’m sure like, a piecemeal, crazy looking scenario sometimes. Tell me a little bit about the client side, what they notice and what has been reflected back to you on some of your client journeys.

Melanie Herschorn  25:44

What they noticed is that they probably wouldn’t be where they are, if they didn’t have the direction.

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:54

They’re getting that marketing is essential to a business. 

Melanie Herschorn  25:57

Absolutely. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:58

To endeavor to anything. 

Melanie Herschorn  26:00

Yes. Right, exactly. And so they, a lot of times, I meet authors, and they say, I have a lead magnet, a lead magnet is the freebie that you get in exchange for giving your email address. And let’s say, you know, I have a lead magnet. Oh, tell me about it. Well, it’s the first chapter of my book. And I say, okay, yeah, your face. Like, nobody wants that. Nobody wants the first chapter of your book. And then I say, and…

Heather Pearce Campbell  26:31

unless it’s about them, right,

Melanie Herschorn  26:33

Exactly, exactly. I said, that’s not going to get somebody on your customer journey, they need to know what happens before the book, they need to know that you’re an expert in your field, and that you can provide a quick win for them. So then what happens is, the publishers sometimes will give marketing advice. And sometimes that marketing advice is great. And sometimes it’s given your first chapter as your lead magnet. And that’s not going to be effective. And I remember talking to this one woman, and she says, Well, I gave away the Table of Contents too.

Heather Pearce Campbell  27:15

Can we just put a pin in this part of the conversation right now I want if you are listening, particularly if you have not yet ventured into the world of publishing, and maybe you have, but I just have to say, because I think a lot of people put their trust in a publisher or their trust in, you know, like, they get so excited about an opportunity that they they are willing to accept that advice or not, like think through a strategy or even from my perspective, have somebody else like an attorney, look at the contract, they think, Oh, well, this is, you know, whatever, insert the name of a publisher, and I’ve seen it happen from small publishers to large publishers, people being so excited that they just sign on the dotted line, and they need to look at everything that’s happening, you know, within the body of that contract, what is the publisher saying what rights are they scooping up because there’s all these secondary rights that they can scoop up. And when we’re talking about the entrepreneurial online, digital world, you need to reserve certain of these rights so that you can teach content based around the book so that you can deliver services or create a lead magnet, using the concepts from the book. And so anyways, I just had to hit pause and say, Please, everybody slow down on this because if you are an entrepreneur, this is even more important than a regular author.

Melanie Herschorn  28:41

Absolutely. And I have to add to that, because I read something in I think it was Cosmo. For some reason, I have been getting Cosmos delivered to my house. I don’t know why. But of course I read them. So there was a whole article on Hayley Paige’s head. This is exactly what you are speaking. So Hayley Paige is a bridal brand. Hayley Paige is a person who signed away the rights to her own name, because she did not have an attorney look over the contract. And she was promised the moon. And now she can’t even use her own name online

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:23

Well, and I’ve worked with authors where I know they’re developing courses or I know that they should be I know that they’re going to be, you know, setting up some virtual events that they’re going to be like doing all of these other things using some of the content some of the framework some of the things that they teach in the book and anyways, you just have to have to have to double check everything. Have somebody review that for you, have somebody review any recommended marketing strategy for you just because it comes from a publisher does not mean it’s a good choice. Okay, and the rant Zanda bit. 

Melanie Herschorn  29:58

Rant over okay. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  30:00

A Rant over. Yeah. So back to your client journey, right? So you see them making decisions, starting sometimes down a path, you know, doing certain marketing tactics, I’ll call them. Right? And then talk to us about what comes next. So you probably have an early audit early intervention, what are some of the earliest changes that you make for them, or help them make themselves.

Melanie Herschorn  30:26

On their Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, we are reworking everything and their website. And sometimes they give me pushback. And I have to accept that sometimes they’re not going to say, they’re not going to change it. And I have to say, Okay, I support you. And I just want you to know that, in my opinion, you should probably change X, Y, and Z. And there’s a lot of mindset that goes into marketing. And so I am not, I am not a certified coach. So, but I’ve had enough therapy, and coaching, to be aware of things, and aware of people and interacting. And so when somebody needs support, and a sort of a shift in the mindset around marketing, that’s part of my job. You know, I had a client who did not want to show her face on her social media. She said, I feel like a narcissist, who’s going to want to see me. Oh, and at the end of our time together, she had done a fantastic photo shoot, and she now posts pictures of herself almost every single day, because I helped her reframe her thinking, which is funny, because her book is called name, claim and reframe. So she’s very good at reframing. So I helped her, reframe her feelings around posting pictures of herself, that people want to connect with her. And it’s not like she’s going on and going, Oh, I’m so great. No, not at all. It’s that, here I am, in my authentic self. And you know, the word authenticity gets thrown around a lot. But I and I, and I’m kind of a TMI kind of person, you know, I have very little to hide. And so I’ll go on live, and I’ll go, Oh, crap, I really need to get my hair color don’t look. And because I’m okay with that, that’s why I’m and not everybody is like, not everybody’s self deprecating, like me, you know, some people?

Heather Pearce Campbell  32:39

Yeah, it will. And it is interesting, on this point, I think how many experts are so committed to their mission committed to their message, and they just miss that, you know, from the standpoint of the marketplace, consumers, especially if they’re getting a service, or they’re, you know, transforming their life in some way. People want to connect with the expert, they want to know, the expert, they want to know, the human on the other side of the services and the story, right. And it’s, I think it can be really easy for certain personalities in the expert space to kind of disassociate from that personal presence, personal brand type of approach to that.

Melanie Herschorn  33:21

I agree. And you know, there are going to be those people who are, you know, on a pedestal kind of thing. I’m not one of those people, and my people are not those people.

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:32

Right? My goal is to not be that at all, because legal on its own feels inaccessible. Right, it’s right. And I don’t know what to add to that. I don’t need to make it even harder for people to get to legal.

Melanie Herschorn  33:46

That’s right. And you have a way of making it so much more approachable, and understandable. And almost, you know, fashionable. It’s fine. Like, you’re adorable, and you talk legal, but you don’t make people feel bad about themselves. You’re not using four syllable words to explain yourself. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  34:06

I think most experts, though, have a similar goal, a similar mission. They want what they know, and what their tweets are like. It’s their whole mission to make, right to get their message, make it accessible, get it into the hands of the people, right? So it is, it is really interesting to dissect that and look at how many people do have resistance around showing up as themselves and in person online.

Melanie Herschorn  34:29

Yeah, yeah. And then there’s Can I do it? Do people really want to hear what I have to say? What if I, what if I oversee it? What if I say it too much? So now my new line is? Well, if you feel like a broken record, then you’re doing the right thing? Because it’s when you realize that you are saying the same thing over and over and over. That’s when people hear it for the first time.

Heather Pearce Campbell  34:55

Is that the truth?

Melanie Herschorn  34:57

Now I get, I mean, I say the same thing. Over and over and over again. And I had, I had a guy from high school reach out to me last week, he’s now a producer in Hollywood. And he has, you know, he has somebody that he wants to introduce me to, because I do book marketing. My sixth grade boyfriend’s mother reached out to me. And because she wrote a book, and if people know that, that’s what I do. And sometimes you just have to keep saying it over and over again. And even though to you, you’re bored, you’re not even paying attention to what you’re saying, because you’ve said it so many times, somebody’s going to finally hear it that first time.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:35

That is so true. I mean, we need to double underline that point. Because even if you look at That’s right, like, I think for most of us, if you look at what you teach you, like you know, your framework inside and out, you know, what it is that you continually have to walk people through step by step, like, I’m sure you have a way that you approach that in your business, as do I and I tell people like, but I’m really forward with it, like, I put the same framework and the same map into my free legal basics bootcamp, like opt in, you can walk through it on your own, that I charge, you know, 25, or $5,000, to my clients for depending on the size of their business, to walk them through the same framework. It’s, you know, but it’s the same information. Obviously, it’s delivered in slightly different ways, and a little more hand holding and all of that, but, like, There’s no hiding the ball for me. And we do have to say things over and over and over again, because, first of all, the first time somebody hears it, they might hear like, one little sliver of it, right? Yeah, some little piece. And then the second time they hear it, they’re like, Oh, little bit more context, or maybe they heard the second piece, it’s, they’re gonna be ready for different parts of it, you have to keep saying.

Melanie Herschorn  36:49

It’s right. And you know, it’s also possible, they’re not ready at all, and they don’t hear it. It’s like when you’re car shopping, and then all of a sudden, you see that car everywhere. It’s because you’re paying attention to that car. And it’s so, you know, you say, well, it’s the universe. No, it’s because you’re paying attention. Right? That’s not that I don’t, you know, believe in, you know, a higher being, of course I do. It’s just that it’s what you’re paying attention to. So you’re saying, Well, you know, I really have some intellectual property that I need to protect. And then all of a sudden, you happen to pass upon this podcast. That’s a sign.

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:35

it happens that maybe the universe, right, pays attention. So what, what else do because I mean, you’ve already given us several ways that people get it wrong, right? These are the things that you fix. These are the things that you implement for them. What else do people typically get wrong if they’re left to their own device to do it? Ah, boy.

Melanie Herschorn  38:00

I know the list is live. And it makes me sad. Because I wish I could help everybody. A lot of people jump from publishing to hiring a publicist. And publicists are wonderful. I recommend them to my clients all the time. There is a gap between having your book published and getting a publicist though. And that gap is if you don’t have your online presence working for you, what happens is, you get on a wonderful talk show. And then nothing happens. Nothing comes from that because people can’t follow you on Instagram, they can’t get your freebie, you can’t ever reach them again.

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:51

Right? None of the machinery is built for people to opt into right, that machine that’s going to take care of them. It’s going to nurture them, it’s gonna communicate with them. 

Melanie Herschorn  39:00

Yeah. I mean, a perfect example, about an hour ago, my client emailed me and he said, This guy came from the opt-in, and which we just launched this week, and that is the opt-in. Yes, this guy came from the opt-in I said, he did all the right things. He found your lead magnet, he downloaded, then he preordered the book, and then he sent proof of purchase for a special gift. He did all the things and that is proof. It’s proof that this works. You just have to be patient. And you have to follow the steps in sequential order. So when you jump from publish to publicity, you miss that step. And then it kills me because you should hire a publicist to help you get on that national stage and they can and they do and some of them. I mean, they do amazing things, but if nobody can kind of follow you online, they can’t learn. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:05

There is no bread to follow, right? There’s no pathway. There’s no breadcrumbs to follow. That’s such an important point. Yeah. What do you wish people knew earlier in their journey as authors?

Melanie Herschorn  40:24

Well, we covered a lot.

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:26

Is there something that you feel like is really missing that you wish that they had a lot earlier?

Melanie Herschorn  40:32

I wish that they knew that it’s okay to promote your book before it’s finished. You don’t have to be published to start promoting your book, the minute it’s written, we can start, you know, we can start getting excitement. And because the sooner you start building that community, the more likely it is to be a bigger community when the book actually launches. And then you have even more people who are excited about it. And this is not just your mom and your brother, it’s people who would actually hire you.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:06

Right? Well, and the interesting thing is, you know, publishers nowadays are asking, what’s the size of your list? Once the size of your audience, right, it is one of the things that they look at. That’s true, and making a determination. So well, and you know, I feel like there’s so many other questions that I have, you know, not only related to books, but related to marketing, because that’s a big one. But for folks that would like to reach out and find more. Find out more about you and your business. Where do you like to direct them?

Melanie Herschorn  41:37

Well, I have a free gift for everybody and anyone who’s interested in learning about marketing a book. It’s your ultimate Book Marketing Checklist. And it’s at vipdigital.live/checklist.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:55

So easy, and I’ll be sure to pop that into the show notes. So if you’re listening, you can find that link to her gift. We’ll put a link to Melanie’s website and anything else that she wants us to share at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Melanie, are you on social media? Do you spend time on social?

Melanie Herschorn  42:14

Absolutely. I’m on all the socials.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:16

Okay. Do you like for people to connect with you there as well?

Melanie Herschorn  42:19

Sure, absolutely. I spend the most time on LinkedIn. And I’m the only Melanie Hirshhorn in the world I believe so. Find me there.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:29

Perfect! Yeah, I’m a big fan. I’ve done lots of shout outs for LinkedIn. It’s one of my favorite places to spend time if I’m doing social media. And just remember Melanie’s last name Hershhorn is H-E-R-S-C-H-O-R-N. Melanie, what final either action steps or takeaways would you like people to leave with today?

Melanie Herschorn  42:51

I would love to say that I know how overwhelming it can get. But all you have to do is start and it doesn’t have to be perfect. But just start to try putting your message out there. And then if you can be consistent about it, that is going to make the difference. I call consistency. The granny panties of marketing, because it’s not sexy at all, but it’s necessary. So if you can start and then keep going, you will see a difference.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:29

I love that and you’re never gonna think of granny panties the same way now relate them to the market. Love that. Thank you Melanie, such a joy to connect with you today. Really appreciate learning more about you and your journey and your clients. I really hope we get the chance to connect again.

Melanie Herschorn  43:48

Thank you so much, Heather. This was awesome.

GGGB Outro  43:53

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.