With Sarah Archer, a seasoned speaking and marketing coach, she combines her deep knowledge of HR, with more than 20 years of senior-level experience, and her expertise in strategic business storytelling to help organizations and individuals captivate audiences. She’s also an NLP practitioner, Prince 2 qualified, and a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD), bringing a rich blend of technical and creative skills to her clients.

Beyond her coaching work, Sarah is a natural storyteller herself. She has performed stand-up comedy for over 20 years and written, directed, and acted in plays that have been published and staged internationally. Her podcast, The Speaking Club, ranks among the top 1.5% of podcasts globally and reaches listeners in over 190 countries. Sarah’s unique background in performance, writing, and corporate leadership allows her to deliver presentations and workshops that engage, entertain, and inspire—helping audiences connect with their message on a deeper level.

Join our conversation with Sarah as she explains the power of authenticity in delivering impactful talks. She emphasizes the importance of a structured approach, using her “Heart Map” system, which includes key elements like a lightning bolt opening, a central big idea, a hero’s journey, dismantling objections, and teaching points that lead to a convincing close. Archer also highlights the value of audience intimacy and staying true to oneself to foster genuine connections. Tune in to learn how you can deliver presentations that engage, inspire, and convert.

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Takeaways & quotes you don’t want to miss from this episode:

• What is the value of authenticity in business?
• How do you effectively communicate?
• Overcoming mental blocks.
• The fastest way to grow is through failure. Why?
• How to create impactful speeches.

“The most powerful stories are your own stories because they’re unique to you. You can leverage them in all different ways.”

-Sarah Archer

Check out these highlights:

• 06:07 Sarah describes how she transitioned from an HR career to stand-up comedy and public speaking.
• 16:19 How storytelling is essential to leading people emotionally and logically…
• 27:35 What is a “Heart Map” structure?
• 34:14 Why “uhms” and “ahs” are natural in speech and shouldn’t distract speakers?
• 45:46 Hear Sarah’s final advice to the listeners…

How to get in touch with Sarah on Social Media:

Special gift to the listeners: Get a copy of Sarah’s Blank Page to Stage Guide – Go from not knowing where to start to Nailing the client winning Topic for your upcoming talk in less than 50 minutes.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below:

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®…

Sarah Archer  00:05

Be you, because no one else can be you. People can’t copy that, and that’s what will bring people into your world that are the right fit for you, because not everyone is the right fit for you, and you don’t want to work with everyone. So the more authentic you can be, the more you can be.

GGGB Intro  00:23

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  00:51

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving online information entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world, welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I am so excited to welcome Sarah Archer today. Welcome Sarah.

Sarah Archer  01:15

Hi Heather, thanks for having me on the show.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:17

Oh my gosh, it’s so well. You know, I feel like we we just had a great chat, which we did yesterday. So it’s going to probably feel like a continuation of that, but super happy to have you on here. I love your topic, and I think it’s super important, certainly for all of our listeners, but truthfully, for everybody in business. You know, it’s we are all delivering our message all the time, whether we know it or not, and so I think it’s really important that we get clear on how to do that well. So if you’re listening today, stick around. Sarah’s awesome. She works pretty exclusively, like I do with mission-driven, very conscious entrepreneurs who really have an impact to make in the world. And so this is for you, if you don’t know Sarah. Sarah is first of all dialing in from the UK, which I love. I was just out there. We were chatting about how I did a 10-day drive around the UK, which honestly was so wonderful. But Sarah works with nonfiction authors, coaches and consultants to get them a signature talk that they’re unreasonably excited to deliver. I love that phrase that the audience loves, and that wins clients without anyone feeling pitched to ding, ding, ding, that I think is super important because probably, like you, I serve a lot of professionals and service based people who you know don’t like the pitching. They’re turned off by it. So stick around. Sarah is a speaking and marketing and marketing coach, writer, comedian, and I’m so curious about that bit, performer, ex-HR, director and the host of the speaking club podcast, which is in the top 1.5% of podcasts and in over 190 countries. This means that she is uniquely qualified to teach you how to create content that makes your audience stop, engage, laugh and fall in love with your message. Welcome Sarah. What a fabulous intro.

Sarah Archer  03:33

Thank you.

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:35

Well. I love how fun it feels like you know. I i just think some people, and especially in certain areas of business, can forget about the fun, and it really shows in your bio. And I think it feels it really helps this topic feel inviting. And I think it’s a topic that is probably scary for a lot of people. 

Sarah Archer  03:54

Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, there’s all those stats around, you know, speaking, and that’s a lot of people feel like they’re not ready to speak, and they put all these obstacles. But I always like to say it’s not about being ready to speak, it’s about being committed to starting the journey and almost, you know those people that I work with, and it sounds like that you work with, have a message that is often bigger than themselves, and so by not getting it out there, they are doing a disservice to the people that they or the organizations that they can help. And some people are even trying to change the world. So it’s it’s just seeing yourself as a vehicle. But the message, rather than it being about you, can often be a great, great help to get over that anxiety.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:45

Oh, it’s such a great reframe. And you’re right. I think most people, probably almost all of my clients, are in that boat of having a message that’s much bigger than themselves, right? And the question becomes, how? Do we share that in a way that lands that not only transforms an audience, but moves them to action? Right? The goal is, as many of us know, especially those of us who have attended events and listened to lots of speaking, it’s all well and fine to hear a message, but what do we do with it? How do we actually allow it to change our lives, or change our business practices, or change some element of what we do moving forward? And that’s the rub, and that’s, I think, what a lot of people need help with, is, you know how to create a message that also causes people to take action? So yeah. I would love to dig in for a minute. You have a very interesting background, obviously, in your bio, like you’ve got a list of, you know, all of these things that you’ve done, from comedy to HR, right, a variety of roles that you’ve played in your work life. Do you want to give us a quick tour through your background and how you got started, not only in business, but then how did you gear your work towards speaking?

Sarah Archer  06:07

Yeah, absolutely. So back when I was a youngster, I always wanted to perform, and I went along to try out for some drama schools and but, you know, when I soon as I got into into the into the drum school waiting area, and I saw the other sort of girls, especially that were waiting there, and they were tall and blonde and good looking, and I was like, oh, that’s I’m no, don’t fit. Don’t fit. I went into the audition, and they said, Go away, get some life experience. Come back. But then I got into the world of work was in it first, then ended up in in HR, and then you have that kind of golden handcuffs, where you start getting money and then throwing that all up in the air, is quite a difficult thing to do for a profession that is not well known for, for, you know, being being well paid or having loads of jobs anyway. So I started making my way through the HR career and about, you know, sort of let me see about 2001 I started doing, just after my daughter was born. I started doing stand up comedy, and so for about 10 years, I was doing stand up alongside my HR career, and then I got to HR director. And when I reached HR director, I was like, Oh, is this it like? I’m just like, I’ve arrived, and now I get to just stay here. Yeah, and then I at that point as well. So Isabelle was maybe 10, and I was getting up at four in the morning. I, you know, I did see her, but I was also doing stand up comedy, and I just, I was disenchanted. I knew I had a different purpose, and I wanted to spend more time with my little girl before she she grew up, so I engineered a redundancy for myself and to others. I did talk to them before I suggested the restructure. And then I left, and I was basically, I thought I was Betty, big boots, basically Heather. I thought, as do you know what I do? Stand up, I’m going to walk into those networking events, do the talk, and people will be queuing up. And of course, I can entertain, and I could engage, and I got lots of compliments. But what I didn’t get enough of was conversions. And you know, eventually, 18 months later, I ended up with a few clients, not necessarily the ones I wanted. And so I had to go back into the corporate world with my tail between my legs. But I believe in failing forward, so I thought I definitely don’t want to stay so I figured out the missing piece of the puzzle was the sales, the marketing, the influencing. And so I went off on my sort of Odyssey, learning about these things, you know, all over the place, reading training courses, and at the same time, was also writing my first play. So I’d been to Edinburgh before with my stand up shows, but I took my first show to Edinburgh, and I learned some stuff about what works in that world.

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:24

So in the International Music and Arts Festival or in the fringe? 

Sarah Archer  09:29

Yeah, absolutely. So I don’t know if you know, but the average audience size for the fringe is like six people. The only people who make money at the fringe are the street performers. So I began to watch what they did. So when I eventually so I put all of this into practice, the marketing. I basically did a side gig, doing copywriting on Fiverr, and was doing in sort of thinking about all these things. And then when I left again in 2017 I put the sales, the marketing and influence. Seeing the stuff I got from the street performers alongside my own sort of storytelling, humor and performance stuff, and created the system, which I teach today, launched the podcast, used that system to start getting conversions, and then, you know, teaching it to people, and they’ve been getting results. So that’s how I got into what I do today. It’s not enough to have a great talk. You’re absolutely right. You need a talk that converts, that gets people to take that next step. Whether it’s an idea, a project, whatever it is, they need to take action.

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:36

Well, there’s several pieces of your story that I love. I’m very curious, take us back in time. What got you into comedy that like, I feel like that is next level public speaking, right? I think everybody has, at least on some level, a basic fear of public speaking comedy is like, dialing that up to 100 that’s how that’s how it feels. For me, the idea of doing comedy is like, oh my gosh.

Sarah Archer  11:03

Yeah, it’s really interesting. So I literally went out with Isabelle was a baby. I went out on a night out with my then husband. That’s a whole other story. Things we’ve changed considerably in that area. Anyway, we went out and we went to a comedy event, and the compare said in the break, if anyone wants to tell a joke, you know, come up on stage and have a go. So I thought sometimes I have this thing where I know I’m going to do something that’s pushing me outside of my like I get butterflies before I’ve even made the decision. So that I thought, I’ll give it a go. So I told this joke, and people laughed. It wasn’t one that I’d written. It was something my dad had told me, but people said I should do it, so I went on a course and started doing it. And I think the beauty of Stand Up is that, you know, you can create content, get on a stage and perform in front of an audience, like when I write the plays that I write these days. I need set, I need costume, you know, not always, but some. I need a, you know, cast, unless it’s a one person show, but stand up is straight, you know, it’s, you can do it quickly, but it’s absolutely the thing that I learned is that, you know, believe it or not, most stand ups that you will see, it’s the comedy is scripted. We learn in comedy, techniques, tools and processes that enable us to create the content that we share. And then it’s about trial and error and and it’s also, you know, so you’ve got to become you’ve got to appear natural. But it is all scripted. So that’s the thing. And I think that’s the same thing with speakers. You want to have the content absolutely nailed, but when you deliver it, you want it for people to feel like you’re thinking of it in the moment that it’s it’s natural. So yeah, so that’s why I did it, and I loved it. It was great. But I have to say that I don’t do it that often these days. I write the plays because schlepping around the country two o’clock in the morning that I’ve done my I’ve done that now.

Heather Pearce Campbell  13:13

Right? Yeah, post children particularly, I would find that to be a real challenge. Yeah, exactly. Well, I love that. And I actually love the part that you talk about. You know, comedy, like anything else, is a series of techniques, tools and processes, and I imagine, I mean, I I pay attention. I think most of us do to funny things, thing like, there’s a comedian, even recently, that my friends will send me his videos on Instagram, and he’s hilarious. And if you study the patterns, you realize, like, there’s almost a syncopation to the way that good comedy works. And there is a formula, and there is this, like, unexpected element about certain parts of it. And, you know, anyways, so it’s really fun to hear that. And then one of the things that you said earlier is, after all this experience, and, you know, having even some challenges, having left the corporate world, realizing, like the missing pieces were sales, marketing and influencing. And I particularly love that you’ve added the influencing part. Like most people, when you’re talking about sales and marketing, it’s sales and marketing, right? And the reality. And, you know, I’ve said this before, but it’s I remember one of those aha moments early in building my second business, which seems obvious now, was not obvious at the time. Somebody on stage said, What business are you in to the audience, right? And, of course, it gets all these responses, but he’s like, No, you are all in the sales and marketing business just happening to you know, do this particular thing that you do. And I thought, oh my gosh, isn’t that a reframe? But because so many of us start, if you study like Michael Gerber or whatever, in the business world, we start as a technician of a certain thing, and we think of ourselves through that lens. We don’t think of ourselves as a speaker, as a, you know, a marketer, as a sales expert. And then we end up having to learn those things along the way.

Sarah Archer  15:20

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, and you absolutely, I don’t think, honestly, you know, setting aside what I do, there is no way you can be successful, especially if as a solopreneur, as a small business owner, without being able to speak. You know, not only have you’ve got one to one, you’ve got podcasts, you’ve got, you know, there’s no way you know that you you can be successful if you cannot communicate your message in a way that’s relatable, concrete, and, you know, gets people moving in the in the direction that you you want them to go in. So, yeah, I think it’s impossible these days.

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:04

Yeah, well, and I love that a piece of your experience is the copywriting, like, what, what were do you see, like, some big gems that came out of that experience for you and influencing the communication piece moving forward?

Sarah Archer  16:19

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the all the stuff I did in sales, marketing, influencing, and which I obviously went into this copywriting is a big part of what I teach today. You know, the you cannot tell people stuff. You have to lead them to have an epiphany about it. And, you know, I know that I always use stories. You know, when I was in stand up, I would be not a sort of a quick fire joke person. I would tell a story, and there’d be jokes built in through the story. So I knew how to use stories. But what I didn’t understand was, in this context, in a business context, you cannot tell people they’ve really got to buy in themselves. You’ve got an emotionally buy in before they logically buy in. So you’ve got to get them from where they are to where you are on your side of the bridge, seeing things from your perspective, and the best way to do that is through, through a story. So that’s the first thing, is looking at storytelling in a different way, to move people. And then the second thing was around proactively dismantling people’s objections. And most speaking coaches won’t teach you this stuff, and most speakers won’t do this because you can tell a story, and you can get people bought into your big idea, and they go, Oh my God, that sounds amazing. I think that’s brilliant. And then you have the buts, but this won’t work for me, this, that and the other so you really have to put yourself in your audience’s shoes, think about what’s going to come up for them, and then proactively dismantle that. And those are techniques that I teach and that I got from copywriting and all that other stuff I learned to do that in a talk, but in a way that is natural and authentic, and again, using stories. So yeah, those some big things that I got from copywriting, you know, and also, you know, from stand up and from copywriting, you’ve got to hook your audience in. So I teach, you know, big part of what I teach is, is absolutely doing that as well, because you got to do it in the title of the talk, otherwise you won’t get them there and then in the start and the end of your talk and all the way through, to be honest. But those big set pieces of getting them leaning in, off their phones, stopping talking to people, or stopping scrolling, is a huge part of what I teach today, and what I do myself.

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:02

All right, let’s pause for a moment and hear from today’s sponsor. Are you an entrepreneur who is on track to make a million or more in revenue this year in your business? If so, your business is likely facing a host of legal issues that are right for support. And if you are like so many of my clients at this level, you are likely tired of taking unnecessary risks and a DIY approach to legal support in your business. You’re ready to tackle the mess of legal documents, six legal gaps that you have. You want to take care of your IP, your clients, your business, and avoid unnecessary conflict and risk in the process. If this is you, and beyond just being an entrepreneur, you are a catalyst and are committed to your mission and your impact in the world. I invite you to get in touch. You could be a fit for my catalyst club, a small business legal support program that I designed for my high level clients. Just like you, you can find out more at legalwebsitewarrior.com. Just click on the Work with Me tab to learn more about the catalyst club and other ways that I support my clients, a fabulous group of world changing entrepreneurs, I might add, you’ve done the initial legwork in your business. And now you want to soar. And you know that you can only go as high and as far as your legal foundation lets you go. So get in touch today, hop over to legalwebsitewarrior.com, click on the Work with Me tab. And if you have any questions, get in touch through the Contact link on my site, I look forward to connecting it would be a joy to support you on your path. You know, having, I’m not a pro, but having done a fair amount of public speaking, and I enjoy it, I’m a person who happens to enjoy it. You know, I remember there was a point because it took a while to get there, but doing a presentation where I had basically, like ingrained all of the cornerstone points, the turning points, the stops, you know, became like a natural part of of, you know, my approach every time. And the thing that I remember reaching a point where I realized I could do this presentation without any slides. I could do it in 15 minutes if I needed to. I could do it in an hour and a half if I had to, right? And I think you know, for me, that felt like, oh my gosh, like, this is the power of learning speaking and being able to, first of all, like, show up at any time and do this, you know, if you were cold on the spot or had a friend dial you up and say, Hey, I have an event tomorrow and somebody dropped out, you know, can you fill this spot or whatever, right? And then also seeing how and getting to experiment truthfully with what works, what hooks an audience, what gets people to pay attention or engage, what kinds of questions get them to look at you and interact versus talk to their neighbor or whatever? Where do you start with folks? Can you give us a glimpse either into your system or how you, how you help your clients begin to, first of all, understand the power of story, pull the right stories out, and then, you know, kind of craft it together. What does it look like in your world to do that?

Sarah Archer  22:37

Yeah, I mean, the first thing that I want to say is, to echo exactly what you said. So if you can create a signature talk that is ready to go and is adaptable, then you are in a brilliant position. And at the heart of my system is something called the heart map. So things that I often heard from people where I get lost, you know, I don’t know where I am in the talk, or that was one of the things. So I wanted to create a map that they would be able to hold in their mind, their whole talk structure easily in their mind, and know exactly where they needed to go next. And then the other thing is, because it, you know, the most powerful stories are your own stories, because they’re unique to you. You can leverage them in all different ways. I wanted to have a structure that was story LED. So, you know, the you can use, literally, the whole structure is, is stories. But essentially, you know, you’ve got to have what I call the lightning bolt opening. That is the that is the hook. That’s what gets people listening in. And I think the other thing to say, just taking a side step for the moment, is that if you want someone to buy your thing, by into your thing. Then you need to answer four questions, and your talk needs to do this. First of all, is this relevant for me? Second, is this possible like, is it even doable? Then the next one, is this possible for me or my organization. And then lastly, is this possible for me now? And so that’s built into this structure. So the lightning bolt is hooks them in and shows them. Absolutely. This is relevant for you pay attention. Then the big idea is the next piece, which is based on the question, which is, what is the one thing you need your audience to believe, such that, by believing it, they’ll be on the same page as you so and that. And then you have a story that is associated, you know, that does that job. And it’s, you know, I use the hero’s journey, not exactly. I have my own version, but it’s got a go that transformation and connect with them. And then once you’ve got them to that point where you’ve done that, and they go, ah, like I said before, oh, my God, that sounds amazing, then you’ve got to think, what are the objections that I need to dismantle? And I think the important thing for people to know about objections, which you probably already do, which is objections are just based on beliefs, and beliefs are just based on stories that we’ve told ourselves over and over again. And so what your job is to call out the objection and then tell a story that trumps the story that underpins that. So a great example, like I was, I think, 48 when my daughter Izzy, started climbing, you know, indoor climbing. And I thought, I’d love to do that. That would be so cool. And I thought, do you know what? Though, Sarah, you’re a bit old for that just and I didn’t I put it aside, but then I’m scrolling through the internet sometime after, and I saw this story of this lady called Greta come up, and this woman started climbing at 99 so like, immediately I’m like, if, if she could start climbing, I think I can do it. So like, straight away, my story was blown out of the water. So in those objections, we’re looking to dismantle the story, and then, and then we have, you know, the teaching points, and then a really important thing is, is the gap, and that’s what I share. You know, this is how you can sell without selling is to give people a heads up to say, if you want to go forward and do this stuff. These are the next steps, but just be this is what you need to know. This is what might come up for you in doing that. And you know, without even selling your services, you know you’re showing them the struggles. And I think that’s really important, because not only do you want them to get a result, and most of people I work with, including me, want people to get a result, but I don’t want them to come and do like a two hour masterclass with me and then go right? I know it all. I’m gonna get results now, you know, so making them aware that there’s more to it is good for them, good for your reputation, and for those people that want a hand, they know that they can move forward with you. And then there’s a convincer, and then another lightning bolt. So in six steps, you’ve got the structure, and all of that is designed to to, you know, get people around that journey and get them into action. So long winded answer. Hopefully it got the concepts.

Heather Pearce Campbell  27:35

Totally! It was a great kind of walk through of your map and the way that you help people frame things. And I think that’s really important, one from the standpoint of making things feel doable, like in my presentation, one of the things I do is give people the legal map, right? I want them to feel empowered with that information. That’s probably the what did you call it the teaching points section, right? Like, here’s what you need to know, right? That will help you and from a speaking perspective, I think this also makes speaking feel more accessible. Like, here’s the map, I can do it, I can remember this, I can follow it, right? So I love that. I love anything with maps. I think a lot of us do. I’m sure there are areas where people get kind of stuck. Do you want to talk through some of those, like where people find kind of that they’re bumping up against their own challenges in doing this for themselves?

Sarah Archer  28:38

Yeah, definitely. And I think so, as I always say, so what you know, I give people the map. I go, right? This is a map. We take them through it, and then I say, well, all you need to do from here. Next steps is get the content together, the ingredients, like pull it into the structure, then develop your capability, your storytelling, humor, and all of the performance stuff, and then practice. And then, effectively, what does come up in those three areas for people are in terms of the content. We, you know, you’ve probably heard this expression. We can’t see the label from inside the jar. We know the stuff from the way we see it. But sometimes we get stuck in our expert mindset, or we don’t even feel like we’re an expert, but we can’t bring the message down to the level of our audience and relay it in a way that makes it concrete and relatable for them. You know, often people get stuck in what’s known as technobabble, which overwhelms people. So you need to be mindful that you are, you know, I always have this. I get people to say, tell me how you know, the way you solve the problem is, if you’re talking to your grandma or a five year old, you know, which is something that I, you know, I picked up from somewhere, and people find it incredibly difficult to do that, but you’ve got to start from that point, I think so that’s, you know. Getting being too close to your staff, having an expert mindset and not being afraid to kill your darlings, because a lot of speakers approach speaking from this is the message I need to get across, rather than what do my audience need to hear in order to move them from A to B? So that’s another thing. And then in the capability, you know, it is to, you know, in in UK, we say Football is a game of two halves. Obviously, we’re talking about soccer, but speaking is a game of two halves, right? There’s the content side, and then there’s the delivery side. And there is a way, you know, having the content is one thing that then being able to, as you talked about, identify, what are the big moments? In what emotion do I want to evoke in my audience? And therefore, what do I need to do as a speaker, either in terms of pitch, pace, voice, body language, to get that response. And then also, you know, there’s humor that can be a brilliant tool, but you need to be able to know how to do that appropriately in business. I was mention that because there’s nothing that turns your audio audience off more quickly than a bad joke. And then practice, you know, people get really hung up on I find this, there’s two types. People will try and wing it. People will hold on to the script, but there is a way to speak. And I think you discovered that. And this is what the point of this structure as well. If you can get to the point where you know the structure, you can also switch stuff out so the objections, you can have different objections for different audiences. Change the hook, the lightning bolt, whereas you can keep the core story, the ship, the same, but just switch bits out. But if you can get to the point where you know that you’ve learned the script, but then let go of it, so that it feels natural, so that you, you know, you don’t panic if you missed a bit out, because you can go, right, I missed that out, and then I can just tag it on here, and that’s really important to do. And, you know, some people, I was coaching someone the other day, and she said, Well, I sort of went off piste and, you know, and she I say, the thing is, like, we’ve created this beautiful thing, and it’s almost like, I’m a playwright and an actor, and if you know, if someone’s written a play, and as the actor, go, you know, I don’t really, I’m going to chuck the play out. I’m just going to do my own thing, like, it’s not going to have the same response. So we definitely want to learn it, but then we want to absolutely let go of it and and get to the point where it feels natural. So getting some support to be able to do that and see your blind spots and and all of that good stuff is important.

Heather Pearce Campbell  32:55

So it’s well, what comes to mind for me is, and I don’t know if this is exactly the phrase, but the irony of structure is that it’s actually what gives you flexibility, absolutely right? And I think some people can fight against structure, but particularly in something like speaking, it’s essential. And then you know the really deep knowing of that content and knowing what parts to pull out, if you only have a short time or a certain kind of audience versus, you know, a different time frame or a different kind of audience. Talk to us, because I know before we went live, one of the things that you do is, like, help people put this map together in a pretty short time. I think you’ve got something that says, like, less than 50 minutes or, you know, and clearly it takes a lot more time to practice and, like, really get to know your material, but talk to us about about that piece. What are ways that it can be easier rather than harder? Because I think people can also overdo it on the preparation and the, you know, kind of worrying a little too much about, like, the arms or the oz or, you know, really like working on perfection versus just being human. Can you share with us a little bit about your insights on that?

Sarah Archer  34:14

Yeah, I’ll take those sort of two points separately. I want to tackle the the arms and the hours bit. I think this is really important. Like, we’re not robots. And I do, like, there are some organizations out there and they have people counting the number of ums and RS that you say. And I, you know, two things to say about that. First of all, it doesn’t matter what matters, you know, unless it’s to the point that it becomes a distraction, then we need to tackle it. It really doesn’t matter, and there’s some positives around that. But if you look at some of the greatest speakers, you know you’ve got Ken Robinson. So Ken Robinson, who did one of the most, probably the most watched TED talk ever. You know, and you look at him, and he had arms and ahs in the first, you know, two minutes. I can’t remember how many. I counted them, like six or more, but there’s no information. He’s like an academic. It’s all insight and humor and stories. So that’s the important stuff. Is getting your personality across and getting your message across. That’s the first thing. And I’ve just said, and it’s because I’m thinking, and because I’m human, and it also gives you time to think about what I’ve just said as well. So that’s the first thing. And I had a client who actually had been so affected by going along to one of these organizations, and she’s a keynote speaker, and next time she was on stage, she was actually counting in her head the number of times that she was doing that. So if you’re in your head doing that, you are not present and connected with the audience. And that’s what we want to get to, is that point. So please don’t worry about that. And I think the other thing to say is that those things also fall away when you know your material. They fall away when you get comfortable and you know, like you said, Heather, that you know you love speaking. But actually, I find that most people end up loving speaking, and you can’t get them off the stage, to be honest. They’re like, they just once it becomes addictive, and it’s just your comfort zone expands as well, you know? So that’s the first thing. And then, yeah, I think the blank stage to page guide that I put together is around helping people who are authors or experts, and they’ve got so much content, and they’re like, I don’t know where to start, and it stops them from starting putting a talk together. And they’re often the people that you find will wing it or cling to a script because they are worried about, you know, like being judged, or, you know, blowing their reputation, all of that stuff. So this guide really does. It sort of takes that big idea focus and then walks people through that, and then also thinking about the audience, audience sophistication to a point where they’ve got that clarity around the message and the topic, and from there, everything else becomes easier. So that’s what that does. It stops you procrastinating and just gets you really, a really strong start and clarity basically.

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:35

I love that so much. I think you’re so right. And whether it’s speaking even whether it’s content creation. I’ve had other guests on the podcast that are experts at helping other experts, or even service professionals, or, you know, licensed professionals that are coming into the online world and wanting to do more and expand their business in that way, like create courses or digital content that can be downloaded. And I think a lot of experts struggle with taking things out, like really, like thinning down their message to the core component. So it sounds like you’ve got a system for really helping people do that well. And I just think that’s a tremendous service to for experts that really want to create an impactful message, it’s that I can’t remember exactly how you described it, but like the difference between what you want to say versus what your audience actually needs to hear, right? That gap does need to be closed. What came to mind for me is, you know, one of the things I actually really pride myself on is making legal support feel accessible to my audience, and training them and talking to them in a way that helps them go, Oh, I get this. This is not that challenging. This is not what I thought it was going to be, and empowers them to make more strategic decisions in their business based on legal inputs and and yet, when I go to write a blog or publish content on my website, you know how WordPress gives you? I don’t know if it’s a plugin or something gives you, like a readability score. I’m always failing miserably. And I don’t know if it’s just because I’m in the legal world, but I’m always like, Huh? I am not doing this very well in the written word, right? 

Sarah Archer  39:27

You know, it’s something that we all need to I have a coach for my stuff because I can get to, it’s hard to do your own stuff and I’m not have to say you’re absolutely right. I mean, having interviewed you yesterday for my podcast, you absolutely do a brilliant job of making it accessible, and that certainly the testimonials I read of you. You know that seems to be a real strength of yours, but that’s what real experts do. You’re able to make things. Simple, concrete and relatable for your audience. And you know, using analogies, using metaphors are a great way to do that. Hook your thing onto something that they already know and bring them together. You know, transpose it onto that, and it makes it so much more memorable and powerful for them, if you can do that. So, yeah, absolutely right, yeah. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:25

Well, and so listening to you talk a little bit about your work, your business model, it’s clear, like you’ve got resources for people. They could go to your site and learn some things they could, you know, download, and I’m sorry I don’t have it right for me. What’s the title of your giveaway again?

Sarah Archer  40:41

From blank page to stage. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:43

Yes, I love that title, From blank page to stage. So they could go get that guide, and we’ll talk about where in a second, but share with us, because that’s a start, but it’s not going to get the vast majority of people over the finish line from the standpoint of really creating something that works well for them. What are the ways that you provide additional support to folks who really want to hone their message?

Sarah Archer  41:08

So one of the things that I do is I have a masterclass, which I run fairly regularly, and that in two hours takes you through the heart map, and it’s, I think it’s like 47 pounds, so it’s a low, low entry point. So that basically gets you started. And then for those people that want to do their whole talk with me, then I have a nail your signature talk in 60 days program, and you can do that in a group program or one to one. And we’re just working on a new product which is going to go beyond that, which is called the Green Room. So it’s still very much in the early days yet, but you know, that’s and I also have a membership which is called the Speaking Club Live, so which is sort of an add on, and people come every week. They can have a 15 minute one to one session with me to practice, to get feedback. And that’s very much sort of turn up and and get support. So there are different ways. But also, I would say a great starting point is the podcast. You know, there’s over 270 episodes, 275 I think, now, and there’s some great stuff there. You know, obviously I’d love you to work for me. We’ve worked with me, but there’s a lot of value there. So you can get a feel and also get a lot of value before you pay anything.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:37

Yes, well, and we will certainly share a link over to your podcast as well. Having been on a lot of other people’s podcasts, you know, you are a real you have a very lovely interview style and are super warm and genuine. So I know that my listeners would love your podcast, because mine is very conversational. We keep it real all, you know, all this stuff I want. I want real conversations, right? Absolutely. And the irony is, some podcasts with guests, you get kind of the speak from stage feel right. So, anyways, pop over. We will share the link to your podcast as well. Tell folks where they can find you online. Do you like for people to connect with you on social, etc? Give us all the deets? 

Sarah Archer  43:26

Yeah, absolutely. I’m mostly on LinkedIn, Instagram, and I would say best place to come is LinkedIn, but I am over on Instagram. And yeah, there’s loads of stuff available at the website. You can get to the podcast from there. So that would be saraharcher.co.uk, Archer, as in bow and arrow. And yeah, just that’s a great place to go. And I’d love to connect with you. Love to hear any feedback, if anything’s resonated. Always, always happy to talk to people. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:00

Perfect. Yes, and I will put a plug for that final point, podcasters and podcast guests love hearing feedback. I know, like the irony of podcasts is that they really, from an experience standpoint, can feel quite intimate, and yet, you know, as far as connecting one on one with the listeners, so different than speaking on a stage where you see faces and you can see how people react and what they’re connecting to. So yes, if you’re listening and you want to pop over and give Sarah a shout out, please do let me know or or drop over to Sarah’s links, which are going to be on the show notes page at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast, find Sarah Archer’s episode, and we will share her website, her podcast, as well as social links, and you can find all of that there. Sarah, it’s been such a joy to have you here. I knew I was going to love this conversation, and I have, I really, I’m so excited that people get to hear from you and begin to think about some of these topics in a different way, and you’ve made it feel very accessible, which I think makes it more doable, like more people are going to be digging into their signature talk if they have one, or maybe revisiting it, like I know that’s one of the things on my list to do, right or possibly creating one for the first time. So I’m so grateful that you’ve shared some of your tools with us. And again, if you’re listening, pop over and get her blank page to stage guide. We will also share that Sarah, what final thought or takeaway action step. It really can be anything. Would you like to leave our listeners with today?

Sarah Archer  45:46

I think it is that you know absolutely put yourselves in the shoes of your audience all the time. You know, a whole section I do on audience intimacy, you know. And think about, if I say this, what’s the audience gonna think? What are they gonna want to know? You know, always being one step ahead of them in your talk, so that they really feel like they you know them, you’re in their head, and that will build the relationship with you. But I think the other key, last key thing is be you, because no one else can be you, and they can’t. People can’t copy that, and that’s what will bring people into your world that are the right fit for you, because not everyone is the right fit for you, and you don’t want to work with everyone. So the more authentic you can be, the more you you can be, then the better really.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:42

I love that so much. And you know, when you think about the variety of speakers that you’ve seen and how different they can be, you know, like, I think of a friend of mine. His name is Jay, and he is, like, super energetic. He massively over delivers, he packs way too much information into you know, and you love him for it. He’s such a giver, like you recognize like, this is just his style. It will never change. And this is what you expect when you show up to one of his events or one of his live streams or whatever, right? And it’s totally Jay. Very few other people could pull that off, I think, and get this repeat audience. And so anyways, it just, for me, really highlights the importance of Yes, be yourself, and it doesn’t have to look like any particular thing, you know, and and each time like we’re all just doing the best that we can, and maybe it’s one degree better than last time, right?

Sarah Archer  47:39

Absolutely, yeah, always, you know you the best way to grow is to fail, or the fastest way to grow is the way you put failing forward all the time. And just park, you know, park that critic. When you go on stage, when you’re in rehearsal, the critics are brilliant help when you’re editing stuff, but when you’re doing anything creative, just park it, because it’s once you step on that stage, you just got to be the creator. Be present. Be you. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:08

Oh, I love that so much. Sarah, thank you again for being here. It’s been such a joy to have you with us today.

Sarah Archer  48:15

Thank you so much for having me. Heather, I really appreciate it.

GGGB Outro  48:19

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.