With Tim Jones, a world-recognised B Corp Consultant and Coach on a mission to help companies from around the world simplify and fast-track their B Corp Certification. Tim works with companies throughout New Zealand, Australia, the UK and the USA. New Zealand’s first B Corp Consultant trained by B Lab to date, Tim has helped Certify 1/3 of the B Corps in NZ. As well as guiding clients to gain their B Corp certification, he delivers inspirational, motivational, memorable and impactful consulting, training and coaching to individuals and organizations. He helps them achieve meaningful goals in life and work, by tapping into the potential of their purpose-fueled performance. He also holds a Certificate in Impact Measurement and Management for the SDGs from Duke University.

Join us in our conversation as Tim shares his journey into the world of B Corp certification, emphasizing its transformative potential for businesses to create social and environmental impact. He highlights actionable insights for small to medium businesses, from leveraging the B Corp framework to fostering employee engagement and sustainable growth. Tune in to explore how businesses can align purpose with profit and thrive as forces for good.

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Takeaways & quotes you don’t want to miss from this episode:

• What are the financial benefits of being a B Corp?
• How B Corp certification provides a roadmap for sustainable and ethical business growth…
• The role of younger customers play in driving the demand for transparency and accountability.
• The move from five to nine assessment topics and how this will affect businesses seeking certification.
• Why do you need to include your teams in creating social impact programs?

“Every company has a social impact, full stop… There is a human in every step of the value chain, and you impact communities and the planet, whether you’re consciously thinking of it or not.”

-Tim Jones

Check out these highlights:

• 06:03 Tim discusses how historical business practices were rooted in serving communities and how industrialization shifted that focus.
• 09:06 What are the requirements of becoming a B Corp and misconceptions about its difficulty?
• 23:56 Tim explains how small businesses can start aligning with B Corp principles even before pursuing certification.
• 40:23 Why businesses need to recertify every three years and how it promotes ongoing progress…
• 52:17 Listen to Tim’s final takeaway for the listeners…

How to get in touch with Tim on Social Media:

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below:

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®…

Tim Jones  00:04

Get to know your team. Bring your team on the journey, because they will have ideas that they are sitting on that closes the purpose loop about them being really passionate about the social fabric of the community in which you’re operating in. Get them to run the community side of it. Get them to bring the ideas around how you can do more social impacts, how you can do more outreach programs, or whatever it is that will light up their life, the energy that they will then bring to the rest of their work and the team. They call it the self sourcing chocolate cake of goodness. It’s like a chocolate fondant that just keeps spilling out more chocolate, and there’s just more chocolate for everyone, and there’s more spoons, and it’s just amazing. We have a great old time. 

GGGB Intro  00:38

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:06

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving information entrepreneurs throughout the US and around the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. We are super happy to have you here today, and very excited to welcome our new guest, Tim Jones. Welcome Tim.

Tim Jones  01:31

Hi Heather, thanks for having me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:32

So good to see you again. And Tim, by the way, is known as that B Corp bloke, so stick around. You are going to learn, and I will too some fun things about the B Corp process, situation, who it’s for, and Tim’s the guy to connect with on that. So Tim, I think you and I, did we get mutually introduced? I’m trying to think how we originally crossed paths. 

Tim Jones  01:54

I think it was Nicole Jensen. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:56

Oh, was she the one? 

Tim Jones  01:57

I’m pretty sure it was Nicole, yeah. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:59

Oh, fun. I couldn’t remember if I had introduced you to her when you raised her name. 

Tim Jones  02:04

I think it was, I’m pretty sure it was Nicole. Yeah.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:07

Oh, perfect. Oh, I love that. Well, Nicole and I swap regular guests, especially if they’re good ones, right? We will regularly share names, and if you’re listening, by the way, go check out Nicole’s podcast. She has a highly rated podcast called leaders of transformation. So Tim, so great to have you here. I’m so glad that I inherited you from Nicole’s podcast.

02:30

I

Tim Jones  02:30

I think we were booked in to do this last year, but you were sick, and so we bumped it, and then Nicole stuck in early. So, you know…

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:37

I know such as life, I love that. Well, yeah, we did. I had to reschedule every podcast recording in December because I got that terrible cough, like, literally, doctors were calling it, and I’m putting air quotes around it, the cough, because there was no known thing as far as what virus it was, but it was making everybody have a really terrible, long, extended cough. I could not have a conversation, let alone record a podcast, without coughing my head off. So I’m still my sternum is still recovering. I feel like an old person. Yeah, that like broke bones because of the cough. I don’t know what I did, but my sternum was very unhappy about it. So anyways, I can speak now without coughing. Happy, happy, but really glad to have you here. Let’s get you introduced for folks that have not met Tim Jones, That B Corp Bloke before now. So Tim is the CEO, Founder and B Consultant at Grow Good, a global consulting firm that specialises in helping businesses go B Corp and beyond. To date, he has helped 100s of companies from around the world successfully navigate the B Corp Impact Assessment and is working with new businesses every week to take them through the process. As well as guiding clients to gain their B Corp certification, he delivers inspirational, motivational, memorable and impactful consulting, training and coaching to individuals and organisations. He has been described as a hybrid of the brains of Russell Brand, the energy of Tony Robbins and the humour of Greg Davies, who is a UK comedian and host of task master. That’s a high bar to live up to Mr. Tim Jones.

Tim Jones  02:53

No pressure, no pressure. Come on.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:15

That’s it. That’s it. Well, welcome. I’m super happy to have you here today. 

Tim Jones  04:27

Thanks for having me. Great to finally meet you, yeah.

04:31

yeah,

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:31

Yeah, totally. Well, you know, I get a lot of questions about the B Corporation process, and it’s really interesting. I know that even you and I were talking a little bit about when we first connected, the requirements, how you help your clients navigate those you know, even in my space there’s dialog around even the current trend for businesses, and I would call it even bigger than a trend, I would say necessity for businesses to be socially aware, to have some impact orientation in their business, right? 

Tim Jones  05:08

Yeah, totally. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  05:09

And I would say that applies whether you go B Corp or not. And, you know, I think the concern that I’ve heard for some of these certifications is like, well, you know, are you just putting lipstick on a pig? Is it a way to green wash a company that should have had this stuff built in already, right? What’s your answer to that? 

Tim Jones  05:28

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think every company has a social impact, full stop. You know, you employ people, you serve people. There is a human that you know, in every step of the value chain, and you impact communities and the planets, whether you’re consciously thinking of it or not, you’re still impacting that so that is business full stop.  

Heather Pearce Campbell  05:50

I love that. I want people to pause and really soak that in. Your business has social impact, full stop, right? And it’s about whether you really are taking ownership of that and doing something intentionally with it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:02

as well.

Tim Jones  06:03

But, I mean, I’m a real history geek. I studied medieval history at university, and when you, when you think back, you know there are names. People have names like Fletcher means you used to make arrows, super means you used to be the barrel maker, Shoemaker, or you were the shoemaker. So we used to literally name ourselves and to a degree, therefore our business based on the service that we provided to our community. So it’s that ingrained historically, but we kind of lost sight of that maybe.

06:32

maybe,

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:32

Yeah, that’s a really interesting point. Like, we literally used to name ourselves after our work, right? 

Tim Jones  06:38

Yeah. And there was a sense of, you know, craftsman, craftswomanship, about, you know, I want to deliver a product that’s good, because I’m gonna have to see this person every day for the next 30 years of my life. And if I make a bad pair of shoes, I’m not gonna get business. And if I’m doing it in a way that’s polluting the little village that we’re in, or, I mean, medieval times, pollution in inverted commerce.

06:58

causing

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:58

some

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:59

Causing or using up a resource, or whatever, right? 

Tim Jones  07:03

It’s that kind of tragedy of the commons. If you were using more than the community needed, you’d be run out of town. And so we’ve had that, that’s been our baseline, but we kind of lost sight of that, because over the last, you know, 200 years, I guess, industrial revolution, it’s been capitalized on the business make as much money as possible. And it doesn’t really matter. I don’t have, you know, there’s no legal requirement for me to think about the externalities, to think about the impact I’m having, because my job as a CEO is just to make more money this quarter than I did last quarter. And as long as I’m doing that, I’m sweet. And so that is why I think we we are seeing this rise of interest in various certifications. And why for me personally, like, I admit B Corp is not perfect. It is not the silver bullet. There are parts of the framework that I don’t fully agree with, but I think it is the best framework we’ve got. That is the most rigorous framework that is globally recognized. It covers social and environmental performance. And the key thing is it is independently verified, and that, for me, is like the Holy Grail. There is no other certification that can claim to have all four of those aspects. And the big thing in terms of combating any claims of green washing is the certification process is independently audited, so it’s really, really hard. I mean, sure, like any system ISO, like anything, you could fudge it, you could make fake claims, but the effort you’d have to put in to make the fake claim rather than actually just doing it. So, yeah, any system is corruptible, ultimately, but it’s a very, very high bar, and any company that has achieved B Corp certification is clearly outperforming, you know, business as usual, and the market in general. Yeah.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:23

No. And I think, I mean, a couple things come to mind. One, I think frameworks are really valuable and important, especially for people who want to do better, and they just need to know, what does that look like? What are the parameters, what are the ways that we can look at this so that we can trend in the right direction? And not all companies, especially depending on size, have the budgets to do what could be done fully to the nth degree, right? 

Tim Jones  09:06

Totally. And, you know, we always say to people, do the best that you can with what you’ve got. But so to become a B Corp, you need to score a minute currently, you need score a minimum of 80 out of 200 on this assessment framework. And a lot of people go, Well, that’s not even half marks. You know, how easy is this thing then or so? How hard is it if it’s only under half marks? But most companies on their first attempt, so the median score on first attempt is 50 out of 200 so to even sneak in inverted commas with an 80 out of 200 you’re significantly outperforming business as usual. But it’s worth noting, there is no 200 point B Corp. Like, no one has won B Corp, no one’s kind of nailed this. So it’s do what you can. And that’s why we call our B Corp sort of coaching framework. Be better, like, use the B Corp framework to become a better company and do what you can with the resources that you’ve got, because it’s that classic, you know, you can’t fill from an empty vessel if you, if you go all in on your social or in mental impact, which then means you’re unprofitable. Well, that’s not your feet, right? That’s right, no. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:06

And hopefully we are able to grow in a way that allows us to become more sustainable, right? Like you build that into your model, if you haven’t from the start, but I do like that phrase, be better, right? The goal is always to do better than we’ve been doing in the past, and to keep that as our target. And I think that, like the score parameters 80 out of 200, what that also tells me, as somebody who enjoys looking at numbers, is that there are multiple pathways for achieving that. Like not everyone looks the same as they go through that process, right? 

Tim Jones  10:41

Totally, yeah, and that’s that’s how it’s historically been. However, spoiler alert, it is looking likely that the framework is updating next year where there will need to be a minimum basic requirement. So currently, there’s five sections that your businesses assessed against, so it looks at your governance, your workers, your community, your environmental and then your customer impact. It’s now looking likely it’s moving to nine topics instead of those five. And like I say at the minute, you can score like really highly on workers and environment and then be doing not so well under community governance and customers, and you can still get the 80. But yeah, it’s looking likely it’s going to move to this minimum requirement, which I’m still not, you know, the more I’ve looked into it, I think, yeah, okay, it’s not as I thought it was going to be quite unachievable for a lot of those sort of small to medium sized businesses. But actually, the more I look into it, I don’t think it’s going to be that big a step up from what the current requirements are, but it is going to make people focus on kind of everything.

Heather Pearce Campbell  11:41

Yes, a more holistic application of that process and that, yeah, those standards. 

Tim Jones  11:46

And I think whereas, historically, most, most companies, we would say, Look, just get B Corp certified year one, and do it by doing where what you can with what you’ve got now, it’s going to be a case of, okay, well, maybe you won’t become a B Corp so quickly, and you’re going to have to take time to get your ducks in a row maybe over a year, so that you then can’t look to certify. So I think it’s just going to change the pace of the change and the approach slightly. But yeah, 

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:09

Well, it sounds like, I mean, even going to that model of looking at nine factors that are being evaluated, or nine areas, though, if people are doing it right, they’re building a better business along the way anyways, right? Does that feel true to you? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:24

No, that’s great. And you know, one of my questions was going to be, is it about the fact that more consumers are aware of this certification and are actually looking to support companies that are certified, like a B Corp certification? I know there’s also like Benefit Corporations, and in Washington state, it’s actually called public benefit corporation. Or is it the fact that those companies are just more transparent because it’s, I think it’s harder and harder to greenwash when you have employees and social media and all of these other mechanisms that provide exposure into your business, you know, any kind of advertising campaign, and like people, there’s enough information out there these days. I think it’s pretty hard to pull one over across the board on public right? So I think that there’s just a harder thing to achieve greenwashing these days.

Tim Jones  12:24

Yeah, totally. And the you know, the data, the evidence is overwhelming that B Corps outperform across the board. And so for me, it really is a slam dunk argument as to why you should be considering B Corp. There was an Insights report that was issued late 2023 so they did a review of the literature on B for performance, financial performance of B Corps compared to business as usual. Between 2019 and 2021, B Corps were more likely to grow their revenue and their work base. So B Corps for business outperformed in terms of financial metrics, and B Corps were, I think it was, 95% of B Corp survived the pandemic, compared to 80% of non B Corps of comparable size and scale. And they did an analysis of 18 studies or reviewed financial literature reviews, and in 16 of the 18, they showed that the cost of B Corp certification was either cost neutral or provided a positive return on investment, and only two out of the 18 showed that there were potentially some short term costs involved, which more than likely attributed to sort of legacy companies who had to put in transition to do that good. Yeah, but you know, the data is there the bit you know, on average, a B Corp is 1.5 times more likely to be a zero waste company compared to a non B Corp. I think it’s 2.2 times more likely to be assessing their environmental impact. So we know because B LAB curates its own impact report every year. So they get all the data from all the B Corps 8000 plus companies around the world, so they know what they’re doing in terms of all those five key areas. But they also measure their financial performance and their employee growth. So we’ve got really, really solid data that there’s also really good data from the UK B Corp community. I think 24% was the average turn of a growth rate for a UK B Corp in 2020 compared to 3% in the market. So for me, it’s like it’s a standard argument if you just care about making money. Actually, you should look at this social and environmental do goodery. And if you clearly care about doing good and you want to make sure you’re not being you know you’re not greenwashing, or you’re not doing it as authentically, or you’re not actually maximizing the good that you could do, well, that’s a great framework to put yourself against and get benchmarked. So come at me. Give me your counter arguments. I’m willing go, right? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  15:39

totally.

Tim Jones  15:39

Totally. And yeah, the consumer is more and more aware and can see through I’m a reform salesperson, so I like to pick on accounting teams and marketing teams. So to all the crayon users in the marketing team, people are increasingly seeing through your beautiful drawings of, oh, let’s put the word green in the title and put a green background. Boom. You know, sales will go up. People are seeing through that. There’s a really a brand of potato chips here in New Zealand called waka chagi chips. And on their packet, they put made with 100% free range potatoes. I mean, it’s a real, it’s a tongue in cheek. It’s like a… yeah, it’s like a comedy thing, but it’s like, well, that’s a claim you could make, and there’s no framework to actually monitor that against, so they can make that claim. And he’s trying to go, well, that’s a great I use that as a great example of a marketing led claim. Well, yeah. I mean, how is a potato not free range? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:34

Not free range. I know. Oh my goodness. Well, and I do love companies that incorporate humor into their advertising, right? 

Tim Jones  16:42

But I mean, beyond the customer, we’re seeing pressure from four main groups, so employees, increasingly employees, want to know that their employer has some greater purpose and then making some meaningful societal impact. You know, the younger generations coming through really, really care about this. We’ve had a conversation with a company based in Australia, and the CEO, basically, he opened the meeting by sort of saying, Look, I’m a pretty guy in his sort of 60s. He’s like, Look, I’m a pretty old wealthy white dude. I basically like playing golf with other wealthy old white dudes. I don’t really believe in any of this stuff, but I recognize I have to for my business to be relevant to the next generation of employees that come through. So like that customers we’ve already mentioned, we’re seeing increasing supply chain pressure. So the really, like the mega big companies, and even, you know, largeish companies, if they are exporting or operating in Europe, or anything along those lines, there is now mandated requirement for reporting on social and environmental impact for companies of certain sizes, in Australia, in Europe, even in New Zealand, like this is coming. So if you are in the supply chain of a large company, they are increasingly going, Oh, Hi, Heather, you provided some legal advice to one of our team, like six months ago. I just need to know what your social environmental impact is, because I need to report your impact as part of my supply chain. So we’re seeing increase, and we’ve got live examples. We had a New Zealand Company we’re hopefully about to start working with. They’re selling into the US market. Their US distributor rang them in the new year and said, Hey, sorry, we’re going to have to drop you because you’re not a B Corp. We’ve gone with a different brand that is a B Corp. But if you go and get B Corp certification, you’re back in the mix. And we’ve had two or three companies where distributors have said to them, you need to go and get a certification, because our retailers and the end customer are now wanting to know. So that is definitely a thing. And the other big push factor is the investment community, increasing interest from local banks and even national banks around they’re coming under increasing pressures. You know, central banks who give them their money are increasingly going, Hey, you can’t be lending money to people where there’s labor issue, you know, labor violations, or if there’s been environmental, anything legally against them, environmentally, or what have you. So they’re really tightening up who and what they’re lending against, but also we’re seeing the rise of green lending. And so again, a recent example, we’ve got a client who, they’re not even B Corp certified yet, but they went, they had a conversation with their bank, and in that conversation, they said, Hey, we’re about to submit for B Corp certification. And they said, Oh my gosh, that’s so amazing. We think you’re our first client who’s done B Corp. We’re going to drop 3% off your loan rate. So they’re not even a B Corp yet. We had another company who in a similar boat, once they were certified, they record in the first three months, they got 30k back ROI, 26k from their bank dropping their their loan rate. And they reckon they got about five or 6k of free PR in the local and national media, based on them being one of the first in their industry to be a vehicle.

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:47

That’s amazing. I mean, those are, those are win wins, especially for those small to medium sized businesses, right that need those boosts, and especially, you know, the ones who deserve to be competitive in the marketplace.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:01

totally,

Tim Jones  20:01

Totally, totally in some in some sectors, this is actually becoming table stakes. So if you’re in a, you know, the fast moving consumer goods sector, so health and beauty, food and beverage, if you’re not a B Corp, in the pretty near future, people are going to be giving you the side eye and going like, really, but you guys claim all natural, you know, holistically made. You know, your five other competitors are all B Corp. What’s the story like? What are you hiding? So, yeah.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:28

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Heather Pearce Campbell  22:11

When you talk about like, disadvantages of the information age and how easily we can become overwhelmed, over consume, you know what I mean? There’s a lot of like, I think mental health impacts of the technology information age that we’re in, and the benefits are like this, the transparency, the access to information that actually changes behavior for the better. Like, we’ve got to keep those trends going. And, yeah, I mean, the reporting on the pressure from those four different groups is really insightful, because I think people often think definitely about the consumer industry. They think about younger generations who just are more savvy and care a lot more about these things, including in their purchasing decisions, in their decisions about who they’re going to go work for. Right? It makes a big difference. But also I love actually hearing about the older generations who are like, You know what we got to get with the program? It needs to happen, right? You don’t always love that they’re so late to the game, but like, glad to have you, glad to see you here and then the supply chain, like, the insights into that are huge, because you think about that awareness as because I think some small providers think like, oh, we just don’t have eyeballs on us in the same way that big businesses do. But it come in. There’s multiple ways that it still matters for you so on that point of thinking about the small, even small to medium but, but especially to small businesses, it’s largely who I serve. It’s most often who I’m talking to. Talk to us about, like, budget process. What does it take? Is it feasible? Like, at what point are you telling people, like, go grow your business a bit and come back to us? 

Tim Jones  23:56

Yeah. So the vast majority of B Corps globally are small to medium businesses. There are a handful of large multinational so at the really big end of town, you’ve got, like down in North America, down in Europe, down in Asia Pacific, Unilever Australia, New Zealand, is a B Corp, but the rest of the Unilever world currently isn’t I believe they’re kind of working on that. But their Australia, New Zealand region, I think they just felt that was an easy one that they could sort of start with. So yeah, there’s, there’s a few really big companies, but not that many. The vast majority are small to medium businesses. On the small end, really, really small, like micro business, like maybe one or two co founders, startup mode, the costs typically just don’t make sense. So your entry level certification fee for, like, under a one or $2 million business, you’re looking at around about two to $3,000 a year. And at that sort of micro business, sometimes it’s just, like, just not quite yet. However, with them, we would totally advise that you go and have a look at the impact assessment. So to go and have a look at the impact assessment is free. You can go, if you just Google B Corp impact assessment, we’ll get the proper link. And it’s like, a really weird link that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:05

Oh, okay, yeah. So folks, listen up. We’ll share that link for you. 

Tim Jones  25:09

Yeah. So if you just Google B Corp impact assessment, you can go and create an account, and you can have a go at the assessment yourself, so you can play around with you can see all the questions. So if you’re in that kind of micro startup phase, we totally recommend, go and look at the assessment and start building your business around it. So if you don’t have any employees yet, but you think by the end of maybe a year, or two years, you might have your first three to five employees. Well, just think about what are some ways we could be constructing contracts, and how would we want to engage our employees? What kind of benefits do we want to offer people so that we know we can build that in to our, you know, financial forecasts and all the rest of it. So you build the business of the future, you know, whilst you’re starting it, and beyond that, smaller businesses that may be doing anything from perhaps a mill to mill of revenue, plus, you know, like, I say, depending on the market, in the industry, and if you’re in the consumer good sector, the money that you’re going to spend on the certification, like, I will eat my hat if you don’t get an ROI back on that, just from customers. If you run the process properly, you’ll get the staff engagement. You know you’re going to, literally, I mean, in the last month, I’ve had four people email me saying, Hey, have you got any jobs, and I’m like a small consulting company at the bottom of the universe, it’s anecdotally, we definitely see that B Corps get people reaching out to them saying, Hey, I just love what you’re doing. I love how you’re doing it. I love why you’re doing it. Can I come and work for you? So for those small to medium businesses like you will typically get, you know, you’ll retain the good talent, and you’ll have people wanting to knocking on your door, wanting to come and work for you. So, yeah, so that’s small to medium definitely worth looking at. Cost is going to be, yeah, your certification fees. And we can give you a link to work out it’s on a sliding scale based on revenue. So it goes up in in sort of small chunks based on your revenue. Typically, the thing that for most small to medium businesses is just capacity. Large companies, the challenge is we’ve got lots of people, we’ve got lots of information, but I’ve got to try and get hold of someone in the regional office in New York, and I don’t actually you know who that person is, and they’re in a meeting every time I call, and the time zone is rubbish, like so large companies typically struggle just to find the person who actually holds the keys to the information that they need to collect. Small companies typically struggle because normally it’s either the CEO, founder who’s going to run the project, or, if they’re big enough, they might give it to their ops manager, their finance or their marketing manager, who they’re not a sustainability professional, and they’re doing this as an addition to their job, and so time and knowledge are the two big factors that stop small businesses, and that’s really why we exist. So we’re all about simplifying and fast tracking that journey by basically providing you with the knowledge the consultant, the expert, information that you need to get through the assessment. And we also basically lock you in a room to make you do it, which is because most people get to the end of the week and they go, oh, yeah, I’m head of marketing. I’ve got a million things I need to do. I’m in charge of the rebrand. I’ve got to keep on track of all the socials, oh, and I’ve got to go and open up that assessment that I don’t really understand and try and hack my way through it. And it always, you know, it’ll always get pushed because it’s the thing that you’re just least confident doing.

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:22

Totally. I know at least maybe you lock them in a room with a lot of coffee, right? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:27

Coffee,

Tim Jones  28:28

Coffee, snacks, whatever,

28:31

whatever.

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:33

No, I get it. Well, I love it. I mean, this feels like such good, powerful information, even that piece about, like, for folks that are aiming towards this as a goal, but you’re still building out team, growing your revenue, like, go dig into that assessment and begin to design your business around those parameters, right? Like, what a more powerful way to build your business anyways. I’d be curious to know how this became your thing. Talk to me a little bit about your journey and what your background was in and where you came from. 

Tim Jones  29:05

So there’s nothing like a good early midlife crisis to get you on the career path that you perhaps should have been on. So I’m originally from the UK. Went to a very good school. And inverted commerce, you know, they my parents paid money. I wore a uniform. I went to school on Saturday, gives you some sort of indication as the type of school that I went to. And you know, the past that was set for me from school was you will go and become a member of the professional services or the military, and you will go to university. I remember talking to, I remember, yeah, looking back with, you know that well, for a start, it was called the careers master, not like the teacher, you know, it’s like I said. It kind of gives you an impression of the school Hogwarts, basically. And I remember them sort of saying, oh, you know, which universities are you applying for? There was no, like, do you want to go to university? You know, do you want to go get a trade? Do you want to go and start your own business? It was like, which university? So, which university? Did medieval history because it was the one which had the least number of hours of lectures a week. And I just thought, well, that’s quite a smart way to choose your degree program. I really wanted to get into the British army. That was, like my thing that I wanted to do, but I failed the officer selection for the British army. So I ended up in a bit of a tailspin. Went and lived in Australia for a year, came back from Australia, met a kiwi girl in the UK, moved out to New Zealand, as is, seems to be how most people end up in New Zealand. They meet a kiwi in the UK or the US, or someone end up over here. And I literally felt into the world of medical device sales. So for the first year, and when I got back from Australia, I did a year in the UK, working for Johnson and Johnson selling hips and knees. And then when I moved to New Zealand, I ended up working for companies selling spinal instruments and implants. So basically, my job was to go stand in the corner of the or every day advising the surgeon on how best to use our product. It’s a real thing, and like I said, I’ve got a degree in medieval history, and I’m guiding an orthopedic or neurosurgeon on how best to place a little widget to fix someone’s back.

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:06

That feels scary, like from multiple fronts, scary for you.

Tim Jones  31:09

scary for the patient. Yeah. But it was, you know, it was a really cool job, and they trade you up like the trainings I received on biomechanics, physiology, you know, basically, almost like medicine 101, like, you have to be competent and confident if anyone knows an orthopedic surgeon or a neurosurgeon, but they are not dumb people, and you cannot pull the wool over their eyes. So you have to be able to know that when you and literally you’re advising them in a surgery. So if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re literally putting someone’s life at risk. So, a really, really cool job. But as I was going through that career, there was a couple of things, but I was in my early 20s, you know, life’s good. They pay you a ton of money. I got to go to a ski conference in Davos, in Switzerland, every December, flying business class from New Zealand. I got to go to Sun Valley, Idaho every February, because we took some surgeons over to a conference there, like, you know, free healthcare, phone, car, you know, everything that a young guy in his 20s like, just that, you know, ball in it. But yeah, the first thing that popped up was, so one of the companies I worked for was based in Philadelphia, and their, I think it was like, their VP or their president of sales went to jail, and you sort of go, Okay, well, what’s all this about? And when you’re working in the company, you know, they obviously massage the PR around, you know, what’s gone on? You know, look, it was kind of like it’s a case of medical misadventure, you know, like we’ve been really unlucky, you know, it’s just a slap on the wrist. And then you sort of reflect on it a bit later, and you go, well, now hang on a minute. The company knowingly launched a product too soon into the market because they wanted to, you know, like any industry, if you launch first, you get market share, you get the revenue and the profitability. So they launched this product knowingly too soon, having sort of grandfathered clause that through the FDA. So there’s a really harrowing, but well worth watching documentary, it kind of comes off with on Netflix called The Bleeding Edge, which is a really good summary of all the corruption in the medical device industry. Similarly, they launched this product the first four, I think it was first four or six patients who received this procedure all died on the operating table. And the kicker was the surgeon doing the procedure was a shareholder in the company, and so the email trail going through the company was the surgeon sort of saying, Look, I’m happy to keep going. I think we can work out what’s going wrong over the next few surgeries. The CEO of the company, who was like the 17th richest man in Europe at the time, hands your face, he was kind of going, yeah, yeah. This is good. Like, we need to keep going. We need to keep going. We’ve got to think of market share. And so allegedly, what we heard was like the VP or the President of sales, he was like the last man standing, because he sent the email to the other one saying, so are we agreed we’re going to keep going. And so he was the guy holding the smoking gun. He got the jail time, but the surgeon nothing, 17th richest man in Europe. Like, is he going to be prosecuted? Like, probably not. So, yeah, I walked away from that thinking, Well, okay, you know, they’ve kind of sold it as you know, you can’t make an omelet without breaking some eggs. You know, we’ve got to advance technology. And you kind of get, well, okay, yeah, there is that. But you did also kind of creep around some of the FDA regulations to get this product in. So okay, but again, you kind of go, Well, I wasn’t involved in it. It’s not me. Anyway., about two years after that, every you, every major medical device company, was subpoenaed by the US Department of Justice because there was a real case of, if you’re running a business, just be nice to your staff, because it was a travel clerk in their travel booking team who was the whistleblower. So basically, she took the evidence from this company showing how she was paying for family members of surgeons to go to conference venues. You know, could we extend our stay and have two weeks on the Sean’s release day whilst we’re in this conference in France? Oh, I hear there’s a conference in the Bahamas in May, you know, could I get a flat there for a month afterwards? Yeah, yeah. Even rumors of surgeons being just basically, how Marquis to abort, just, you know, in the in the mailbox, you know, once a year, thanks for your service anyway. So again, the companies all just came out and said, Yeah, but it’s a level playing field because we’re all doing it. So, you know, there’s no harm, no foul. So there was that. And then there was a third instance of some corruption that I discovered here in New Zealand, and that was all sitting in the back of my mind, but that the trigger moment was where I live, here in Christchurch in the South Island of New Zealand. We had a massive series of earthquakes over 2010 2011 and then in 2012 my wife and I had our daughter, and over that sort of two year of time, I basically went through what’s called a subconscious awakening. So if you have a near death experience earthquakes, if you have the birth of a child in your life. The only other thing I didn’t have at that time was the death of someone significant or close to me, because those are the three big events that can lead to people having this moment of like, what the actual am I doing with my life? So I had that moment. And yeah, it took me about a year or so to sort of really process it. But I I just remember, I remember standing in this one or in a hospital in Auckland, and the surgeon was just being particularly belligerent and nasty to the whole operating team because things weren’t going well. And I’m sitting there going, I know how much you earn. I know how much you’re stealing from the system. I know how unethical you are. I’m just and, yeah, I’m having to, just to keep my mouth shut here. And I walked home after that at lunchtime, because we were living about a K away, or about a mile away from the hospital. I said, Well, I’m done. I was about to say something, and I can’t, you know, you can’t do that. So, yeah, I left that industry. I’m really disillusioned. You know, the one industry in the world that should be just about fixing people is the medical industry, but actually it is one of the worst when it comes to profiteering. And, you know, causing patient, you know, bad patient outcomes in pursuit of profit. And we’ve seen that, you know, with, obviously, like the Sackler family, you know, all the ox content stuff that’s going on over your side of the planet. Yeah, it’s just awful. So I left that industry and ended up interviewing for about 80 different jobs in different companies, just anything, and ended up then working for a firm of property consultants. So helping, you know, in the rebuild of Christchurch, I thought, Wow, this could be really meaningful, like getting involved working out, you know, how do we get better buildings? But again, it was really apparent that the people in the rebuild all they wanted was cheap, quick buildings that were really profitable, like, we don’t care if they’re, you know, environmentally friendly. Don’t care about access for people with wheelchairs or any other disabilities. Again, got really disillusioned. And I guess over this period between 2010 and 2014 I went on a massive journey of self discovery, like, what is the meaning of life? What am I supposed to be doing? And on that journey, I came across this thing called B Corp in about it would have been 2014 and I thought, well, I bet that there won’t be one in New Zealand. Turns out there was one, and there was one down the road from me here in Christchurch. So I emailed a guy, Steve Arder, who was CEO and founder of a company called Eagle protect, and I was like, Hey, I’ve just stumbled across this B Corp thing. Then I come and have a chat. And he’s like, sure, come around for a cup of tea. We booked in, I think, like a 45 minute meeting. I left his office four hours later, just, you know, head exploded. Okay, there is this group of people at the time. There was maybe about 1000 B forks globally. It’s like, okay, I might be mad. I might think that this whole profit at all costs is really stupid. But everyone I’m talking to in businesses just thought, well, that’s just what you do. But why are you worried about this? Because it’s really good. Just get on the gravy train. But yeah, to find Steve, like he really was, like the mentor on the hero’s journey for me, of there is a different way. And so yeah, he introduced me to the B Corp movement. And then, yeah, sort of by late 2015 I’d been made redundant from it. I moved out of the property company and ended up working for a company doing training and coaching consulting, because I kind of knew that that was really what I want to get into. Yeah, late 2015 got made redundant. Others thought, Well, I’m telling everyone else that they should be a B Corp. Maybe I should just pony up and do my own one. So by mid 2016 certified as B Corp number five in New Zealand, and since then, just been talking to anyone that will listen to me about B Corp and why it might be something worth living into.

Heather Pearce Campbell  39:07

Oh my gosh. Well, your journey. I mean, I think there’s so much in that I relate to in different ways, right? That whole awakening, going through loss, tragedy. I mean, it’s some of these things that lead to our most important work in life. And kudos to you to like, recognize the writing on the wall and some of the industries that you were in and just decide, like, that’s not for me, because we need more people deciding, like, this path over here is not for me. And I definitely think people are waking up to it like, I think it’s much more in the mainstream now that people are talking about the fact that business just has to be done differently. But I still think there’s a lot of people that don’t know the how, like, how do I do it differently? What is the path look like? Right? So, I mean, that’s why they need to connect with somebody like you who has walked it. I mean, congratulations to you for being B Corp number five in New Zealand. That’s awesome. That has to feel fun.

Tim Jones  40:06

A long old time ago now. Yeah, it’s like, yeah. I mean, we’re a three time certified B Corp. So, you know, we’ve been around the block. We’ve seen pretty much everything you can see in the world of B Corp, so.

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:17

And on that, so three times certified B Corp? Is it a process you go through multiple times? Talk to us about that. 

Tim Jones  40:23

Yeah, yeah. So, so let’s say if you certified as a B Corp now in 2024 at the time of recording, you would recertify three years time in 2027 so you pay your certification fee annually to maintain your status, but you recertify every three years. Yeah? So you’re on this interval times, yeah. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:43

So it’s like, reupping your like, continuing legal education.

Tim Jones  40:46

Yeah, 100% Yeah. So the idea is not, I mean, not every company goes up in score each time, like we went up and then went down, because there were just some changes to my business. And to be honest, my business is like the classic builder house on the street. I’m really great at advising other people on how to do B Corp, but, yeah, that’s a good when it comes to our business, but it can be a real journey of up and down. But the idea behind it is you then have this framework where you can kind of go, Okay, well, we’re doing this. Let’s maintain this. Let’s build on it over the next three years so that we can get a slightly better score next time. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:18

Yeah, I love that. And I think that framework, I mean, it’s just so important for people to have a map, you know, and the fact that it’s an evolving process, I think, anyways, I think that feels good, because especially, I think folks that are drawn to this are going to be drawn to having some way to measure growth and measure how they’re doing. And I think transparency and having outside eyeballs on your business matters. I think it matters a lot. 

Tim Jones  41:44

There’s a real sort of community feel as well around like holding each other accountable. It’s typically relatively easy to connect with other B Corps, like in your sector, or, you know, even outside of industry groups, but you kind of pass that initial sniff test okay, well, we know there’s some common values that underpin how we operate, how we think about business. It’s not to say that you’re guaranteed the deal. Like, we’ve had some clients who go, Well, I’ve pitched my services to this company and they’re a B Corp, and they’re not interested. It’s like, well, they might just not want your services. Your sales approach might have been average. So it’s not a given that just because someone’s a B Corp, they’re going to use you. But it’s certainly, you know, to get a conversation going with other B Corps, it’s typically pretty easy, because you’re like, Yeah, I want to support you because I get, you know, we share the same sort of ideals. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:27

Totally, no, that’s huge. Who have been, and you don’t have to name names, but like, within industries or types of business, like, who are your favorite people to work with? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:37

Yeah.

Tim Jones  42:38

Yeah. I mean, it’s a great question, because people often sort of say, oh, you know which industry you know is the most common one for doing B Corp. It’s really for us, it’s not industry specific. For me, it’s more about the mindset, the intent and the desire of the company and the people in it. So we have helped a farm with their B Corp. We have helped law firms. We’ve helped consulting firms, marketing companies, product companies, food and beverage companies, like, we will work with any kind of industry, because it’s interesting for me to get my head around it, particularly, like, like, I say the first farm, There’s only a handful of farms in the world that are B Corp certified. So it was a learning experience, as much for me as it was for the company, because I’m like, I’ve never seen this question before, because that’s worth also just mentioning. There is no one assessment. There’s about 70 different assessments you take, and that will vary based on your geographic location, the industry sector that you’re into. There’s five sectors. There’s agriculture and growing, Manufacturing, Service with minor impact, service with major impacts, which would be like travel, tourism, type companies, and then wholesale, retail, and then how many employees you have. So if you’re 1000 plus employee in the retail sector, you’re gonna have different questions from a farm that has 20 employees. So makes sense, yeah? So yeah, we we just want to work with people that want to do it and are keen and hungry to be better, and we can help them all day long. 

43:56

I

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:56

I love it. Well, and I love it sounds like you have some interest and like, enjoyment out of the variety anyways, like going through that process and walking through and learning more about it yourself. I mean, that feels fun. I think, not to be doing the same thing every day. 

Tim Jones  44:12

Totally, yeah, I need that variety. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:14

Totally, yeah, I agree. Well, it’s so I mean, I love hearing about the process and digging into some of these details. Because, you know, I think it’s important for people to know that it’s accessible, and especially for those small companies that are growing into the range where it is a fit, understanding just how accessible it can be, you know, a couple grand a year, and some ongoing effort where somebody is kind of overseeing and managing the process, doesn’t make it sound so burdensome. 

Tim Jones  44:42

100% Yeah, and a lot of the companies we help you know that they are almost shocked that they’ve made it across the 80 and I’m like, I knew all day long you were going to do this. And so there is a it’s good in some ways. There has been a bit of mystique around be called, like, Oh my god. Just like, it’s so hard. Like, oh, you’re a B Corp. Well, one day, maybe I’ll be able to do this. I can say, if you’ve got the mindset, the intent and the desire that you want to be a better company, we can show you there’s, like, some really quick wins that a company can implement to get themselves to that threshold. You know, year one we our advice to people is, look, just get across the line. If you sneak in with an 80.1 it does not matter. You get to put that B Corp logo just as well as Patagonia with their 150 whatever they get. It’s like you’re still a B Corp. But then use the framework you’ve got three years the clock’s ticking, then work out budget, timelines, ownership. And the real key the first time around is to bake in as many of the KPIs that you kind of, sort of reveal on the journey is to just make them into business as usual, spread that load across the company so that not one person’s owning it. It’s like, Well, hey, marketing team, actually, you now need to take ownership of ethical marketing. So we want to report from you, you know, once a month on, have you had any complaints about our marketing being, you know, disingenuous, or, you know, if it’s zero, Cool, well, it’s really easy thing to measure, but we just need to keep on top of it. So yeah, we’re really big on that employee engagement sites. We do a kickoff session get all the team like, if you’ve got 1000 employees, we want to get all 1000 employees on the call, or over three calls if we need to get the team fired up about what this B Corp thing is, because every business needs customers, employees, supply chain, and investors, and in each of those sectors, the individuals all care about something socially, environmentally. I love that program. When the CEO goes back to the shop floor and he’s astounded that the people who he’s paying no money to struggle to feed themselves and their kids. It’s like, well, who knew? Shock. You know, get to know your team. Bring your team on the journey, because they will have ideas that they are sitting on, that closes the purpose loop about them being really passionate about the social fabric of the community in which you’re operating in. Get them to run the community side of it. Get them to bring the ideas around how you can do more social impact, how you can do more outreach programs, or whatever it is that will light up their life, the energy that they will then bring to the rest of their work and the team. It’s like, I call it the self sourcing chocolate cake of goodness. It’s like a chocolate fondant that just keeps spilling out more chocolate, and there’s just more chocolate for everyone, and there’s more spoons, and it’s just amazing. We have a great old time. So it’s such a multi faceted tool. It’s like, get the independent verification, get a certification tick. That’s but use it as a tool on the purpose journey to bring the team, bring the bring that engagement, and then if you tell that story successfully to your other stakeholders, your customers, like I say, if you don’t get an ROI back from that, you’ve done it wrong.

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:41

Well. And for people that are intimidated by the process or thinking like we’re too small to do it, like it’s so great that you, you know, walk people through this step by step, and hold their hands, and here’s how it’s done, and you’ve seen how it’s done for years now. You know, sounds like you were really on the early edge of that. So that feels fun and also very supportive. So for folks that are listening and that are thinking, oh my gosh, I need to check this out. I need to learn more about this process. I’m interested in connecting with Tim. Talk to us about where you are online. Do you like for people to connect with you? And where is that? 

Tim Jones  48:19

No. Hate people connecting with me. 

48:21

me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:21

Some people, no, listen, some people. I’ve had a couple of guests that are like, like, go to my website and opt in. I’m not on social you’re not gonna find me there. I actually just interviewed a guy on Friday. That was that way. I ended my day with him doing a recording, and he is the anti social media guy, and he’s like, Nope. That’s okay. That’s reasonable. It’s great. But I love people who are so clear on their business boundaries and their personal boundaries, right? But I always ask, do you like for people to connect? 

Tim Jones  48:50

Yeah, if you can’t find me on the internet, the internet’s probably broken, as my go to theory. So LinkedIn is the best place to go find me. That’s where I’m most active. You can check out our website, which is growgood.co. You can book a call with me there, if you want to chat, there’s a link, you know, to book a call, send me an email tim@growgood.co we’ve got links on our website. We’ve got an ebook which is like a really, it’s called To Be or Not To Be – The What, Why and How of B Corp Certification. Folks, we’ll get a link so that you don’t have to sign up to be spam by me. We’ll get you a link for that, Heather. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:22

Although I encourage them to be spammed by you also, right? You’re a business, no, and we’re joking, folks, of course, Tim was not going to send you spam. 

Tim Jones  49:31

We don’t send spam. We send you highly curated interesting thoughts on B Corp. But we’ll also get a link to that, that Insights report that I mentioned that shows the financial case for B Corp. So, yeah, we’ll get into that. But yeah, just check out our website. There’s a bunch of info on there. If you’re interested, just book a call with us. There’s a little link on the website. Book a 30 minute discovery call. Hopefully happy. Like, if you don’t want to work with me, I literally, I’m just so passionate about growing this movement, like, you know, for the last eight years, I, I will go to the open. You have an envelope, if I thought the envelope might be interested in B Corp, I just want to help you connect to the movement. If you end up working with us, that’d be amazing. We’d love to we have a ton of fun. We bring the energy, you know, make going through what is quite a dry, boring online assessment, we try and make it as fun and humorous as possible. So we will have a ton of fun helping you. I say, beyond anything, we just want to connect your business into this world and see you thrive. Like the B Corp is such a small part of that journey, we will be able to connect you with people that will just help you, like we just want to see your business get to the next level, become the business of the world. Needs your business to be right now so that you can have a great time. You can be profitable, look after people and plan it. And at the end of your time, when you sell your business, or you walk away from it, you go, that was a bloody good ride. And I feel pretty complete that I didn’t destroy the planet in my local community at the same time, but I’ve done okay. Like, I think that’s kind of what we’re all looking for in business, ultimately. So to know at the end of our day, like, that was a good ride, and I’m proud we did my business. 

51:00

Yeah,

Heather Pearce Campbell  51:00

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that’s exciting. I’m already thinking of some folks that I can connect you to, but first, if you’re listening, I want you to pop over to the show notes page. You can always find those at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast, look for Tim Jones’ episode, and Tim will link to your website. Will certainly link to LinkedIn. I’m a big LinkedIn fan myself, and also the links to the locations on your website to connect with you. I’d love for people to set up calls and start exploring this process. Check out that insights report, anything else you want us to see there. But I so appreciate your time, and you’ve just shared a wealth of information. I feel like you know, anybody who listens is going to have so much more knowledge about this process that they probably did not have before, and I think it makes it feel so much more accessible. So I love that. And that is the goal of this podcast, is that people listen and then they go, take a step in the right direction to support their life, support their business, right? And this is a biggie. I think having that map is huge. So I super appreciate you. I’m so looking forward to the folks that will get to hear this and pop over and connect. What final, you’ve given us so much already to think about, but what final tip, quote, feedback, joke, heck, I don’t care what it is. What do you want to leave us with today?

Tim Jones  52:17

So I’m a massive skier. I love the two things I love more. There’s nothing I love more. There’s nothing I love more in the world, other than my family, obviously, than B Corp and skiing. And for those who are big skiers, you might know Warren Miller and the Warren Miller movies. And as he always said at the end of his movies, if you don’t do it this year, you’ll be one year older when you do. And for me, that’s the same with B Corp. If you don’t start thinking about doing it now, you’ll be a day a week, a month, a year older, and you’ll have missed all the opportunities. So…

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:42

I love that. Start Now, folks, it’s never too late to get on the path. Tim, I appreciate you. I so look forward to being in touch, and I will be sending some folks your way. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:50

Appreciate

Tim Jones  52:50

Appreciate it and everything that you do. Thanks for the opportunity. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:54

Yeah, thank you. 

GGGB Outro  52:56

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.