How to Stop Hustling

With Chris Goegan, the Creator of Engineered Marketing, and Builder of Business Growth Systems. Chris has worked with hundreds of business owners in 100+ industries, including his friend Michael Gerber (of E-Myth fame), and many other industry leaders. He shows his clients how to engineer their marketing and build client acquisition SYSTEMS that work on any, and every traffic platform.

They don’t require you to be the magic – you just need 3 Systems. Chris is also a Dad, and a Canadian now living in California “eh!” He is a hopeless Toronto Maple Leafs fan.

Join us in this second conversation where we talk about building the foundation of business, creating systems so you don’t have to work 80 hour weeks and the importance of letting these systems build. Chris shares why being different in business is vital in order to get and retain customers and why you need a clear vision of what you want.


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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • You don’t want to be stuck working 80 hours a week and unable to take a vacation- why you need systems!
  • IF everyone is the same how are you customers going to be able to choose?
  • You NEED to be expressing your values in the marketplace.

Check out these highlights:

4:22 “A lot of people think they have systems in place when they actually don’t.”

14:28 “The greatest thing we can do for people is to help them make a decision.”

31:02  Why is differentiation so hard for people?

44:52 No personality or heartbeat= no connection.

48:00 Final takeaway: Get a clear vision of where you want to go and see how you can be different.


How to get in touch with Chris:

On social media:


Find out more about Chris:

Get access to Chris’ Free guide: “Engineered Marketing: The 3 Essential Systems”

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro 0:00
Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™…

Chris Goegan 0:04
I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to keep, I don’t want to do, I don’t want to hustle. I don’t want to do this anymore. I, and you know, and your, you know, your spouse or friend or you know, significant other will like say, Well, if you don’t do it, who’s gonna do it? You know, in your life, and you got to get up, you gotta force yourself, you know, to, you know, to do the work, you know, so it’s really, it’s like, no, people have worked with people they’re like, but I love doing the work. It’s like, Great, well just build a system anyhow, because you know, and you keep doing it, you know, but you’ll be able to handle more people because you’ll be more efficient, you know, with it. And then maybe at some point, time comes where you want to hire somebody else and stuff like that you want to grow or you get hard work, you’re all set, you’re done.

GGGB Intro 0:42
The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:14
Okay, well, we are back for part two of the conversation with Chris Goegan. I am so excited to welcome you back to another episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. Now we already spoke with Chris in part one of this conversation if you missed it, be sure to go check out the last episode. In today, part two’s conversation, we are going to pick up where we left off. Chris has shared so much value around sales around the importance of differentiation in the marketplace. There’s so much that we have covered but we’re so glad you’re back with us for part two. Welcome to Chris. Can I ask you a question about your systems because I think a lot of people they might have some systems in place but I don’t know that they’re as clear as what you’re talking about, like a very specific system for your cold leads right versus warm versus hot. So like I’ll use my business as an example. I do a lot and I also have a big believer in educating first like really helping to educate the marketplace so people fully understand what the problem is because I think a lot of folks get stuck there not even knowing the extent or scope of their problem and so because of that their decision making is really challenged around that problem. Right Some are more informed clearly those become the you know, the warm leads they know they have a problem but they’re just not ready to buy yet. And then you know moving them along to the hot but like in my business if I go back and speak to the same audience because I do a lot of educating in my my kind of standard presentation. A lot of people like lightbulb start going on like oh my gosh, I didn’t even know this was a problem right? These are cold, they’re all cold leads sitting there in that audience. Yep, what I have found and I also take kind of a long term approach to business like I am just going to keep showing up and educating and each time I have a touch point with this person, they’re going to be slightly farther down the road as far as having a better understanding of their own business. Right But what I have found is like by time to or time three that they hear that presentation, they’re ready to buy, right but it’s it’s not like a particularly complex system you know, my goal in the presentation is to get them to opt in go through one of my secondary trainings right hopefully it following that training they’re on my list they stay on my list etc. But you know like to me those systems feel kind of blended right I’ve got my list I have a way that I nurture people I’ve got certain opt ins and then I’m a regular speaker so I’m not always clear on like what the the key parts of it are that are really working except I’ve observed it long enough to know that by time two or three that they hear that presentation they’re like okay, I need this now and I’m ready to buy I’ve heard this enough that they get it right something clicks for them. So talk to me like like because I think a lot of people are in that place where they they have certain systems but they’re not as clearly delineated. It sounds like is what you’re talking about.

Chris Goegan 4:22
Yeah, So a couple of points with that first is I think a lot of people think they have systems but they don’t really have systems Yeah. And so so it’s it’s um, the systems that that I you know, build for people and an implementation group that we put on as well. It’s like, picture having leads coming in and you’re not doing anything to bring out there come at it.

Heather Pearce Campbell 4:48
Picture sales, fully automated. You’re talking to fully automated Yep.

Chris Goegan 4:52
But but by automation and people. Yeah, no sales are coming in and you’re not making the sales. They’re being that what you what you promise to deliver and your sales and your marketing is being delivered to client fulfillment is delivered and you’re not the one doing it so to me imagine a business where you have that going on it’s like how much time could you spend in nature you know how much time could you sit there thinking about your business which is just as important if not more important than working you know, like like in the details of business, you know, so so so just you know, imagine what life would be like most people say they have systems but their systems are usually ad hoc. Yeah processes. I’m going to go into LinkedIn and get a network and talk around and they just do ad hoc sales they kind of have something that they’re used to talking and they’ll just get on the phone we’ll talk they don’t have a sales process they don’t they just kind of it’s kind of seat of the pants they say they have a system well that’s their system. To me it’s like you know green fixture stoplight Green Yellow Red, Yellow Red is you’re doing everything yourself ad hoc yellow is you have a set way Hey, this is what we do. And this is how we do it. But you’re still involved with it.

Heather Pearce Campbell 5:59
A lot of people are are red and yellow but especially yellow once they’ve done some building but they’re not the green.

Chris Goegan 6:06
Yep, yep. And and when you go through this whole process of like moving yourself into the greens it’s amazing because I mean you’re doing a lot of brain work, but you’re getting really really really clear and really, really really focused either on on on your business and so many different aspects what you’re selling, how you’re selling it, who your market is, how you’re going to help them the impact you want to make in people’s lives. So that’s one part of it. The other part of it is when you first meet somebody you know, like especially these days it’s like if they’re not hot hot hot swana like they’ll they just want to solve their problem and the bigger the problem is the more they The more you want to solve it you know it’s the more the more time they’re looking to invest to warms you know like most people are the warms and the most of the money in people’s businesses are in the warms not many dollars but future dollars and so so all you want with a warm I just want them to say you know what? I like what this other girl said. I like what you say you know what? That made sense I don’t want to buy or anything I’m not looking to buy anything I get I don’t want to talk to her I don’t wanna talk to anybody maybe I might have a question but I like what she’s saying and I think I want to hear some more from her. That’s it That’s it, that’s all that’s all you want to do. And then and then you’re warming system is you’re just giving them education and you’re you’re giving them things so like like before a call we’re talking about you’re talking about like something that that I might want to trademark on my business right? Well, I’ve got so much like so much things going on with with rolling out systems and fine tuning systems in a number of areas that we’re doing and whenever area of our business My mind is so so like bogged down on that in your mind it’s like well it won’t take you long to do that. But but but everything’s a management of resources resources being time money and energy, right? I have got no extra energy right because all my energy is consumed in here now what’s going to happen is you know sometime sometime you know the next you know, six months ish, I’m gonna have all these things all settled down and they’re gonna have more time and more energy and so now I’ve moved into what I call the looking zone where where people be like I bet you’re sitting like this and they’re talking to me you’d be you’d be if I was you I’d be like you have a need for this you need that you need to do this you really need to do this but in my mind I don’t want to do this right not not right now. Not yet. Yeah, so so most people like oh this person will be great or this person really needs this well they don’t need one or two different things. And so what happens is the warms they go through a life event even the colds do this they go through a life event that have put them in the looking zone. The greatest The greatest example of that is is how many people are looking to lose weight right now. Yeah, no, I mean I mean I mean well maybe but but both

Heather Pearce Campbell 9:04
COVID I’m laughing post COVID I think a lot of people are

Chris Goegan 9:07
Yeah. Yeah so so but but counter wise it’s like once once the biggest time when people lose weight or want to lose weight

Heather Pearce Campbell 9:14
Right before weddings before big events probably like you know class reunions all of those kinds of things

Chris Goegan 9:20
Those are all really good things and we’ve also got January 1 right there Yeah. I totally so but all those things like like weddings you know, like like reunion and stuff like that. That’s that’s life event. So they’re sitting there as they’re eating their their their pint of Chunky Monkey at midnight you know, it’s like you know, we have done a lot of that in the past and, and but it’s like holy crap I got I got this reunion coming up. I put on a few pounds since since college or high school and I need to do something. So then so now No, all sudden during the looking zone a week earlier, before They got that invitation they weren’t right life event happened there now no looking zone. Yeah. And so like I need to do something. So then they start looking at Well, what should I do? Should I do? Run Shay, do peloton CrossFit? And for a lot of people doing CrossFit? Now, you know, they look at, that’s not for me, how about walking? How about? Well, you know, so they go through all these things that they could do. So they’re actively worms out there looking at different at different solutions trying to figure out if they want to invest time, money and energy to solve this. And so they have this life event, they do research, and then and then they’re trying to figure out you know, hey, I want to solve this and then they’ve decided that they want to solve it. Now their hearts now they’re looking like, you know, so like, this, this trademark thing. I am so busy with this. It’s just too much energy for me, it’s not for you, but it’s for me. And six months from now, life events changed. I got my I’m where I want to be with, you know, with these systems. Now I’ve got time and energy, and it’s like, hey, Heather, you know, it’s like I like like, like to talk to you about that’s where you get these phone calls. Hey, you know, I don’t know if you remember me or not. But you know, we met at this event, you know, I saw you speak five years ago. And, you know, I got an email from a guy’s like, Hey, Chris, I don’t remember not but I met you. You spoke 10 years ago to singers that I get your emails. I have no system for the colds. I have a great system for the hot. I have no system for the worms. Yeah, what do I need to do? Like he was already trained and prepped and ready to dawdling? Like, when can you? When can we meet? How much is it? How much will it cost? And how do we get started? You know, so. So that’s where the education system comes in?

Heather Pearce Campbell 11:41
I call it I call it planting and then watering the grass, right?

Chris Goegan 11:45
Exactly. And then and then stuff will grow where it grows and where it doesn’t it? No, it won’t. So

Heather Pearce Campbell 11:51
I love that. And I think the the frustration, I think that so many people face is that they have been sold, you know, a pile of crap when it comes to what people tell them about turnaround times with client, you know, and not in every business. But most most businesses, they face a timeline of you know, creating that relationship, educating the client and allowing that to germinate. And so many people expect like, oh, if they can’t measure it immediately, it must not be working, right? And so, for me, I’ve always because with legal stuff, like like you just mentioned, most people, it’s not top of mine, either until they’re facing a problem. They have an emergency, or they’re really ready to scale and they just know they need to handle it. Right. But I want to have been the one to plant the seed and water that grass so that by the time they’re ready, they know like, Oh, well, I’ve been hearing from Heather, I know that, you know, she can help me with this particular thing or whatever.

Chris Goegan 12:53
And they know your personality that it’s like, you know, she’s she’s she’s Yeah, I like her. She seems she seems pretty nice. Seems pretty cool. She just knows what she’s talking about. I don’t feel high pressure from her. You know, it’s like, yeah, I want to I want to, I want to talk with her.

Heather Pearce Campbell 13:07
Yes, that high pressure thing I think is huge. And, you know, I think people also get told to add all of these, what do they call them? I can’t even remember right now. But ways to put pressure on the sale, right? Like time urgency or limited quantity or all this stuff, especially in the online world of business where it’s like, if you just my approach is that if you just empower your client enough with the right information, it allows them to make the right decision for themselves. You don’t have to do that pressuring.

Chris Goegan 13:36
Amen. Amen. Yep. Yep. Because whatever’s going on in their life will like that pain that they have, people will move more to get rid of a pain, you know, especially like in the legal world is moved to, in a move away from people don’t move to like, you know, it’s like, you know, buying Legal Services is not a it’s not a fun and sexy thing. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like…

Heather Pearce Campbell 13:59
going to the dentist,

Chris Goegan 14:00
I got to like, rearrange my sock drawer, take the cat for a walk, get ripped now all these other things and find a lawyer.

Heather Pearce Campbell 14:09
That’s right. That’s right. It really is more of a pain motivated action for sure.

Chris Goegan 14:16
And so life will help accentuate the pain. You can obviously like, you know, you can tell us what we want to do, you know, in marketing and sales, we want to push on that pain because the greatest thing we can do for people is to help them make a decision. Yeah, yeah. And and then whether decision is to move forward it’s not new for the best thing we can do is help them because somebody has a pain, that that’s going to get worse and make their life worse. Yeah, best thing we can do is help them make the decision to face that pain and decide if they should like actually get rid of that once and for all in their life. We’re just deal with it. You know, I mean, so

Heather Pearce Campbell 14:51
So there’s gonna be a certain number of people listening that are like, oh, poke the pain, like how many times have you heard that right? And I think that there are ways that it can be done. ethically and you know, in alignment with, you know, the integrity that you have in your business versus unethically. I’m curious if you would be willing to talk about that, right for folks that are kind of stuck an

Chris Goegan 15:14
Okay, yeah, so good question. How do you how do you poke the pain? Well, it context is so important. So it depends on the relationship that you have with somebody, you know, I’m some, like, you got a good relationship with somebody, like, like, like, one guy I’m working with, she’s building an incredible business. But she was just doing things are like, I thought was just like, just, she’s gonna waste your time. And it’s, and so so I was like, I asked her, it’s like, like, you know, how long she’s gonna keep trying to chop down an oak tree with a salmon. And she’s like, what? And so I relate it back. It’s like, that’s what somebody somebody told me a long time ago, I said, Chris, it’s like, there’s so frustrating to work with Chris, I’m like, why is that? He says, because it’s like, there’s this great big oak tree, and you’re trying to chop it down with a salmon. And then come along, I come along with this sharp axe. And I’m like, here you are the action like, no, I got this, and you’re whacking away with the salmon. It’s like, it’s just just so frustrating. So it was with a scout, great relationship with, you know, with her. So, um, so I can be, you know, like, a little more like, you know, like, bold and direct. Yeah, but if I don’t have have the relationship, you know, with her, if it’s somebody seven conversation with somebody wants to grow their business, and they know, they’re not where they where they really should be. It’s just like, you know, just goes back to their their gold or vicious like me also, does it? If I’m poking the pain? Does it? Does it bother you that these other guys are like killing it? And you’re still stuck? No. Did you ever? Do you ever think about that, you know, is that does that ever weigh on you? You know, and me it’s like, like you saying, with a smile on your face, you can say?

Heather Pearce Campbell 16:59
Well, I do appreciate the humor and being able to like poke the pain a little bit with humor. I have an example of that. But I think what you what you said initially about if you’re really committed to your service, and what you’re doing, you do have to remind people of the pain, right? And for folks that are feeling like oh, poking the pain is out of integrity, because it feels high pressure or whatever. No, like, what I hear you saying is it’s actually reminding them of like the outcome that they want, and how they’re not going to get it with their current tools.

Chris Goegan 17:30
Yeah, everything’s great. But everything’s back my opinion, everything’s right back to their vision to the goals. What do you want? How come out there, what do you think it’s going to take to get you there? Well, did you have you solved that? Have you fixed that yet? No, you have to have a plan to get you know, not to get you to where you want to go. Nobody. Nobody ever hires me, or never, nobody ever joins my class. They’re there because they like they wake up in the morning. Oh, my gosh, Chris is such an amazing guy. I can’t wait to give them money. Right? The only reason why people come to me is because they have a problem that they can’t get rid of on their own. If they can get rid of one on their own. They would rather do that they can’t not not now they now they’re looking to like hire somebody, you know, to help them, you know? So it’s like, well, so to me, it’s like all it is it’s like so simple. It’s there. It’s like, where are you? Where do you want to go? How can you not there? You know, what, what’s, what’s your plan? I don’t have one. Would you like one? You know? And then there’s a keep putting you off? It’s like, it’s like, Okay, well, did you solve that yet? Did you fix it? You figure it out? You know, do you have a plan yet? No, no, no. Okay. Do you want one? Yeah. Or what? Do you plan on getting one? I don’t know. Right? It

Heather Pearce Campbell 18:33
Sounds so simple. When you put it that way.

Chris Goegan 18:36
I like one now what do we do? Okay, well, let’s, let’s, you know, you’ll hire me and, you know, we’ll, we’ll put that plan in place. You know, so becomes, if you just make it not about you, because I think a lot of people like they feel pressured, because it’s like they feel they need to say something. If you just turn around the questions, it’s like, it’s about you like, What do you want? What are your goals? Where do you want to go? You know, what’s your plan to get there? You know, yeah. And, and there’ll be like, I don’t have a plan. You know, yeah, well, it’s like, what would you like to plan? Heck, yeah, I’d love it. Okay. What do we do? Here’s what we do, you know, I do the other way, which sets us like one on one, get the other way. Which which is and that that’s always the best is like, just ask them questions, bring it back to, you know, back to their dreams. And that’s why the initial conversation with people you kind of go back to like, What do you want, you know, I want to help people, like, like, like, build a great business. You know, that’s it, helping good people build great businesses. That’s, that’s all I want to do. And so I want to know, where they want to go, where are you? Where do you want to go? And everything goes back to there. Doesn’t matter if it’s today, six months now, 12 months from now, you know, we may still work together for four, but it’s a crisis just not going as fast as I want. It’s like well, and we talked about, you know, a longer term perspective. Yeah, but it’s like, well, what’s what’s your plan? You know, have we got result? Yeah. As we move the needle, yeah. It’s like, well, what was your plan before? What’s your plan gonna be now let’s talk about that. You know, But if you if you don’t have that, and you’re sending out like like emails or education yeah group, it’s just group education. You know, it’s like, you know, he is just you talk about stories, you know, got off a call with somebody that they you know, they’re not growing here, here’s the biggest reason why they’re not growing. Here’s the top five reasons why people aren’t growing. You know, life is short, you know, son of my motivational you know, like a motivational video you know, it’s like and so it’s, it’s, you know, I would say that learning to be able to put people’s pain and I don’t mean that in a salesy way it’s like like coming from a you know, a caring concern like yeah, I want to I want to help you you know, like from you know, from love it’s like it’s, I think you should just get comfortable

Heather Pearce Campbell 20:49
So well and I agree and when you say that coming from love it really is a true statement that that’s where we should be coming from in our work with people right? If we don’t love our work care about our clients tremendously like we are just not going to be of service to them in the way that we could and including when we’re really clear about they’re either yes the kind of client we should be working with or no and I’m really clear with folks like if you’re not the kind of client that I should be working with I’m just gonna tell you right because I care that you have a fit that’s right for you and that I have the fit that’s right for me. Yeah, yeah,

Chris Goegan 21:22
I was I was thinking about like, when dad’s I know from hockey he just had a big heart attack and and if I’m having he is fine but if I’m having lunch with him and so he’s made all these lifestyle changes when the looking zone massive lifestyle change, right? Right And if I’m having lunch with them and he’s ordering like, like like fries and no heaping butter on pancakes and stuff like that. Would I not say anything? Would you if you had a good friend would you not say anything to them right now if no because you care about them right? Yes and so and so so don’t make it about you just make you know if you if you care what to help them don’t make it about you make it about them just ask questions. Yeah, yeah. Should you be doing that you think it’s like you know, what you had you said you think that you should have it?

Heather Pearce Campbell 22:15
Right? Well, and I was working with a copywriter like and when you describe the experience of like, poking it, but from a place of love, like it brought up this scenario for me, we had done kind of this initial chunk of work together and he was like, Okay, so what’s your plan for the rest of it? Right? And I was like, well, I kind of talked briefly about what I thought I could do myself and he’s like, okay, that’s awesome. you’re eventually going to be a great copywriter right? And the irony of that like in a really funny but lovingly hit me in the face like no my goal is not to be a copywriter but clearly the plan that I had just told him about he’s reflecting back to me like that’s pretty ridiculous because takes a lot of time to become a great copywriter You know, there’s a difference between writing and write and writing for sales right? So like writing copy that converts you know, online different beast So anyways, I laughed, but it was very much one of those pokes from a place of love, like, Oh, that’s great, eventually you’re gonna be an awesome copywriter. Like, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. That’s not my plan, right?

Chris Goegan 23:19
Yeah, that’s a good example. That’s awesome. Okay,

Heather Pearce Campbell 23:24
Let’s pause to hear from today’s sponsor. Today’s episode sponsor is both Pearce Law PLLC. Home to my legal practice here in Seattle, Washington, as well as the Legal Website Warrior, and online business and brand dedicated to supporting the legal needs of information entrepreneurs. These include consultants, coaches, online experts, and educators, speakers, authors, industry leaders, influencers, transformational leaders, community builders, podcasters. People in this space go by a variety of titles. But essentially, their businesses look alike. They are building businesses based around a body of work and information that they have created. That gets delivered in a variety of ways, including generally through an online base, the home base in the online space, thus, my branding, the legal website, warrior, I’m dedicated first and foremost to protecting online brands, helping them stay safe, helping them navigate the legal rules that exist and applied to the online world, as well as take care of and protect the offline portion of their businesses as well. There’s so much that these entrepreneurs do in the offline work and their business as well and there regardless of what you call yourself, regardless of what your business is about, you do not get to the position of scaling and growing and creating the influence that you want In the world and becoming an industry leader, without essential legal support, so if you are in the space of information entrepreneurs that I serve, I would invite you to reach out and connect with me. You are also welcome to check out a free resource that I have built, you can find it at legal website warrior comm forward slash legal basics boot camp, it is my free legal basics boot camp that I have prepared just for you so that you have the map, what I find, and let’s be clear that the traditional legal model tremendously underserved a certain portion of the small business community. And that is why I’ve set about to create a set of resources, documentation, education, etc, that supports people in this space. My legal basics boot camp is going to walk you through a framework that I developed that helps you understand the roadmap for your legal needs. This way you can stop cherry picking your needs in the dark without the map and start making decisions that have legal ramifications for your business. From the standpoint of being empowered from the standpoint of understanding what your legal priorities are, and being able to choose those intentionally and knowing what they’re going to do for you and your business. So connect with me at legal website warrior comm forward slash legal basics boot camp where you can get my free resource. You can also find me online at Pierce law services calm, which is just an online space holder for Pierce law pllc, my legal practice based here in Washington State, again, congrats on your journey. I’m honored to have intersected your path and be a small part of it through hosting this podcast. And if I can support you in any way, reach out. Okay, back to today’s amazing guest. You know, you’re still I’m gonna say make it sound, you know, so easy, I understand that it’s not easy. And so the timeline that you laid out of like building the foundation, creating the systems doing the work to let those systems build, you know, and create the results for you. Talk to us, you know, in these final minutes about how how you walk people through that process.

Chris Goegan 27:21
Yeah, so quick comment, or you said, make it sounds so easy, but it’s not easy. Yeah, it is easy.

Heather Pearce Campbell 27:29
It’s easy, if you have the right if you if you have the right support doing it.

Chris Goegan 27:33
If you’ve hiked the mountain, you know, 10 times, how about 100 times have 1000 times if you hiked the mountain 1000 times, it’s easy. Like the walk may not be easy, but it’s easy. Like you know how you know how to do it, right? You’ve done something enough times like this, this is how you do it. So I’ve I’m sorry, what was your crown?

Heather Pearce Campbell 28:00
My question was to walk us through an example of like, how you take your your clients through that process, right? I mean, break it down just a little bit more so that for somebody going like hmm, I think I might need to investigate Chris and see about these systems, right? For the the colds warms and hot and what this could do for my business, like, you know, dig into the details just a bit about what that process looks like with you.

Chris Goegan 28:24
Sure. So so there’s there’s two ways that people work with me now is got the practice of private client work, which I’ve been doing forever, with a 99% success rate on private client work that we’ve done. And I just refine that and refine that. And engineers you know, and never contend how do we make it better? How do we make it better? drives my wife crazy, I’ve had to learn to dial that down at home. It’s like she makes there’s like, you know how to if you added like a little more crewman to to this. She’s like, like, you want dinner? Like, right? So I doubt that down a hall, but but it’s like, so I’ve refined it refined and refined it. And then so what I go through the set process, I go through an awkward posture, just the core basics of that. And so it’s that process I go through. And what I’ve done is I’ve taken that step process that I go through, and I also teach it in a workshop, but it’s actually I’m not teaching it’s an implementation workshop where it’s like small business owners that want to grow and scale their business. And they can’t they can’t grow all the things they’ve done they just wanted like how does this work? Anyone systems, so they want growth, and they want systems we’ve got a very pragmatic approach. So I’ve taken what I’ve done over here, and I’ve deconstructed and I put it into a three month program. One we do this week two we do that week three we do this we It’s seriously get an understanding of what we do and why we’re doing it. And then we’re rolling up our sleeves, there’s worksheets you’re creating, you’re making you’re creating things you’re doing things and so it’s an implementation workshop. It’s not a theory only. It’s no this is work 99% success rate in over 100 days. In industries that stories and key, you know, case studies that you know, like, like a zoo, but um, the core of it is it’s like, CES just get really clear on the vision. What do you want? You know, just this is this this is this is like pure marketing, you know, sales, what’s your vision? What do you want because that’s that’s your gas, that’s your fuel, that’s what we can always come back to. And then and then to as we work on your differentiation, you know, um, you know, we look at competition do a competition analysis, we create differentiation, we look at how they’re positioned in the marketplace. And we look at, we look at their positioning, and we compare it to your positioning. And we want to make sure that differentiation almost every single time we go through these exercises, people say, Oh, you know what, it’s it’s pure rubbish. Now work with people around the world. And the people from UK, they always say it’s like, it’s just, it’s like, everyone says the same thing. It’s just pure rubbish. And it’s like, well, what’s your message? Like, no different? Like, ours is the same. They’re like, and then the last thing is, yeah, my website sucks. Like, my messaging sucks. everything sucks. I hate it.

Heather Pearce Campbell 31:02
It’s like, Why so on this point, because I can relate to what you’re saying. And I, you know, I work with a lot of clients in the online space. And, you know, I, anyways, you see exactly what you’re talking about, when you see a lot of messaging that looks the same. How, why is differentiation so challenging for people?

Chris Goegan 31:23
If you don’t have differentiation, how do people know? How do they make a decision? You know, if someone’s if someone’s looking for a lawyer, And everyone says the same, the same thing? How are they gonna decide what’s more they want to work with, it’s like, I you know, and they’ll, they’ll poke around, like, like, like, like, different pages, and they’ll look at, you know, what, we needed some work done on an air conditioner, my wife hop online, and, and she brought up a bunch of different sites, and they’re like, they look the same. It’s like, Oh, I like the color scheme on this website. They give me you know, it’s like, because they all say, fast delivery, family friendly, but they don’t back anything up. They just make all these like, like, stuff that probably wouldn’t work on the online marketing boat, you know, 1015 years ago, but it’s just all generic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. She’s like, I like the colors in this website. I’ll call them Oh, I like this picture of this person. the about page, oh, this person’s got a dog, you know, it’s like, Okay, I got it. So, but there’s nothing talking about, you know, differentiations. So it’s like, you know, if everyone’s just a lawyer, okay, we, you know, we do this, this, this and this kind of law. Well, how are you going to know who should who should work with? Like, do you want to work with this note saying, it’s like, you know, you’ll buy from people, you know, like, and trust, right? So if you can, like create differentiation, know, like, and trust and have a unique way of doing something, because people are quite different with better. Yeah, they’ll say everyone says, like, typically what when people do especially coaching services, and marketing services, they’ll do the research, and they’ll see everyone will say, we’re the best number one in the world of this, we’re the lowest cost we’re the fastest we’re, they all say the same. We’re number one, we’re number Well, you look at five websites, and all five are number one. It’s like It’s like in the movie, elf, you know, like, like, the world’s best cup, a cup of coffee. Congratulations, you did it. You know, it’s like, everyone’s all number one. It’s like, Well, how do I know who I want to work with, you know, but but but there’s nothing different people, I find people hitting my site. And they’re like, and then they’ll set up a call me like, Chris, like, you know, the biggest reason why I want to talk to you. He’s like, first of all, I love the engineering. I love the pragmatic approach three systems sounds really interesting. No, but you seem like a guy that’s just gonna give me an honest answer. You know, and so my differentiation is all baked in engineering systems, the three systems and now I’m just gonna get I’m gonna be honest, and give you an honest answer, like, whether you want to, whether you like the answer or not, it’s just up to me, you know, so, so you have to have differentiation. And people will especially now people want with so many people hopping online. If you think about your best, the best people you’ve ever worked with, you think about them, you had bunch of faces and names popping in mind. How much of the values match what was there between you guys? interests, family? law? stuffies? You know, yeah, well, if you can start communicating that and have a unique approach, so you know, you’re doing business you’ve been doing and you started your business. There’s lots of other competition when you already started your business. So you already entered a crowded marketplace. What was it that that you want to solve and make easier to people when you came to the marketplace? What is it what is that? Well, let’s let’s let’s pull that out and let’s communicate that and that that we have, we have like gone into people with like, all here when I work with somebody private side, Kay, we tried google it didn’t work, tried Facebook, didn’t work, tried LinkedIn, that doesn’t work, tried YouTube, it does work, tried direct mail, it didn’t work. We tried email that didn’t work. We tried everything. It didn’t work. We go in and We adjust their positioning and their messaging and we relaunched these campaigns and actually way they set the campaigns up pretty screwed up anyhow. But but but we go in and we’ll launch campaigns like very pragmatically on a scaled way and we’ll have this unique messaging we’ll get across and also we’ve got results. It’s like It’s like magic it’s like you know, the engineer the technician means like, no, it’s not magic it’s just like if you have a clear different way so for me, engineering if you want growth and you want systems you want an engineered pragmatic step by step approach no fluff no hype. There’s three systems we’re going to build that’s it This message is gonna resonate with an audience or it’s gonna like not it’s not not not this like like counting stuff you know $50 million in 50 days you know, not like like none of that so you’re going to resonate with that message or you’re not and then you’re going to like you’re going to like my personality So first of all, that message is going to grab your attention it’s like hey, they’re gonna listen to me watch a video of me you’re like hey, this Chris guy I like what he’s saying. Or it’s like you know, he kind of whole Canadian thing turns me off or he talks too much whatever. So so but you’re gonna resonate with me right? Not if you’re not you’re going to go away somewhere else great, but you’re going to resonate with me and you’re gonna resonate with me and you’d like my message you’re gonna want more and more and more your trust is gonna increase and you’re gonna eventually want to have a conversation you’re gonna get emails from me educating you never be like oh, that’s why that didn’t work. That’s why that Oh, that’s what you do. Oh, I get it. Now this guy was like pitching me this and I didn’t realize that I get it. I see. So So having that differentiation, so clear vision, clear differentiation. And we take that differentiation and we we build what I call the Royal gorge. Fine lager, I will talk more about it real short version of you can look it up online world gorgeous. A client went on vacation, and show me pictures of this massive gorgeous kind of Grand Canyon type of thing. It’s like huge, and it’s like impossible to get across one side, the other side. And then there’s but there’s a bridge across. So so the Royal boards, we set the road boards, where are you? Like, like, Where’s your prospect? Now they’re on one side of the world, gorge, stuck, pain, frustrated, you know, he irritated what they want to get across the other side of the road where it’s happy, joyful, life is fantastic. I’m kicking butt and taking names and we’re like smoking, I am living the life that I always thought I could, you know, so they want to get over there, but they don’t know how to get across. Well, we’ve developed a unique methodology called engineering marketing that will get you across that that royal gorge. So we help people set up their royal gorge for their business, where for your specific audience, you got we’ve got a unique way to get them across that that that World War with your your unique process. So So vision, differentiation, sub royal gorge, for your unique process, and then we and we just we just won them over with education based marketing. We’ve built a system over cold build up for warmth, we built for Hots, and the reason why we’re not focused on traffic platforms is when you’ve run an ad before you’ve run a marketing campaign before Heather, when’s the last time Google sent you a check?

Heather Pearce Campbell 38:00

Chris Goegan 38:02
Does Facebook send you a check? It’s like you open the mail, there’s a check for $10,000 is like from Facebook. It’s like, right? Who, who like who hires you? And who writes the checks? Right? Yes, right. So let’s not build it up, build stuff. For traffic, let’s fill stuff, focus on people. Let’s focus on people who are cold, or warm. Let’s focus on people who are hot. So let’s focus on people. If you’re standing in front of a room, talking to talking to an audience, you know, of 100 people, you’re gonna have people in that room, you’re gonna have three, four people in the room that are hot, you’re done. And they’re like, give me your card. We need to talk. Can I book a time your calendar right now? I don’t think you’re gonna have people go back to your information table. It’s like, Hey, you know, this is? This is kind of cool. You know, some questions? Yes. Can I get some information for you? Do you have other people? That would be like, worthy? We’re, I thought we got lunch with

Heather Pearce Campbell 38:54
Right? Aren’t we on break? Yeah.

Chris Goegan 38:57
Are we on break? Right? So So you’ve got away intuitively how to handle each? Mm hmm. Well, if we set it up using technology and systems, you know, we set it up to handle the people. And then and then and then with the member, the factory attention amplifier, we plug in different traffic sources, and the different traffic sources that help people self select whether they’re hot, warm, or cold. And we just let them self select and the system just runs and just just turns and you’re you’re in the green for lead generation lead warming and or lead closing and fulfillment, you’re in the greens, you’ve got a system that can operate without you. If

Heather Pearce Campbell 39:33
Hmm, I love that. And I mean, there’s so much in your process that we could dig into, I love in the beginning where you talk about differentiation as well as the importance of expressing your values in the marketplace talking about you know, even what makes you an individual right and there’s there’s actually a term for that I heard somebody teach on this topic before it, it’s called multiplexing. The more that you can multiplex where People are having a variety of connection points with you the way more likely they are to have trust to relate to you to feel like oh I want to go sit down and have a beer with Chris because now I know he’s a dog owner he’s got kids he’s cognate like they start to figure out like the ways that they can relate to you which makes them way more likely to actually want to continue walking down that path right and I think a lot of people at the front end of business can keep it for lack of a better term way too dry way too non personal way to business he does that make sense?

Chris Goegan 40:36
It does Yeah, no and that’s that’s a brilliant point Heather it’s it’s like as tall people’s like you know what we need to make you three dimensional Yeah, you’re two dimensional you’re saying what everyone else is saying? Let’s make you three dimensional but but they’re afraid well I’m going to lose people it’s like well you’re gonna lose people anyhow if you don’t

Heather Pearce Campbell 40:52
You want to you want to repel the bad ones I mean the bad ones just talking about bad fit right and i mean the example that comes to mind is like me going to your website and being like oh my gosh, Chris has a mountain on his website right like that was one more way that I was like oh I so relate to him you know and then we had this conversation about how I’m building a new website right now and it’s gonna have a bunch of mountains in it because that analogy of building a business and hiking a mountain is so strong for me. Mm hmm yeah. I love it well, you have shared so much value with us today I mean you’ve got you know the system that you walk people through it feels very clear it you know, I think even just saying like there’s three systems that you need right alleviates so much stress because so much noise in the marketplace tells us it really is not that simple. We need so much more than that right?

Chris Goegan 41:46
Yeah, yeah and most if you look at Susan somebody wants to walk through my my program they said Chris like because I don’t have a sexy name for it it’s it’s um it was like Chris it’s like no, you should call this like the last program you’ll ever need because because that’s that’s what it truly is. And is there like like I thought I knew marketing but now I really get it it’s like where they have for you three years ago you know and because when you understand you know like positioning and you’re sitting in a rural gorge and and then your attention amplifier setting that up you’re setting up the three systems then everything clicks you’re like Oh I get it I get why that program that work I get why just to know Oh, I see and then you initial Okay, this webinar program I need that or should have gotten that it’s like that’s not gonna work for me or it’s like well that’s that’s what I need to do to make it work and all these different things that are out there you see exactly how they plug in because this is a system based off of people cold they have cold interest they have warm interest they have hot interest now all these other things five day challenges, webinars, email marketing plans, Facebook things you see how they plug in it’s like oh my gosh, this makes total sense. I know I get it. But but most people and I want to power people I want people to exist in the in the marketing education world. One of the things that really irritates me Heather is that there’s it breeds on insecurity. The five things you must know the three things that if you don’t have you do the 10 things to grow your business. It’s like well that’s great for a marketing standpoint, it breeds insecurity and I want people to be confident and secure it’s like no, this doesn’t matter because I’ve been through this like so many times like this doesn’t matter videos here here’s the here’s a great example videos websites people want pretty websites but websites usually built by designers Yeah, and more important videos people want one videos Should I how many seconds between cut angles and what should my lighting be? Well you know, if you’re selling a service, none of that matters. What matters is that you got a great message you know, and I’ve done tests on this to show this you know, and it’s like you can have a you can have a dimly lit room given off great content people like so I can call these aren’t that great but man this is so awesome. I want more I want more.

Heather Pearce Campbell 44:02
Right? Well and all you have to do is know somebody in the marketplace who has a crap website or virtually like none of the stuff that other people feel like they need to have and they’re killing it in business to realize like oh, it is really about something else

Chris Goegan 44:17
To help people Yes, yeah. Yeah, because if you can help people and killer communicate how you really

Heather Pearce Campbell 44:23
You don’t even need a website I know I know. I mean not that I’m Pooh poohing a website I’m in the middle of building a new one myself but it’s you know there there’s so much truth to the fact that people get so busy I call it like waxing outside of the vehicle that they don’t they’re skipping all the insides they haven’t even built the motor they don’t you know, they don’t have a foundation they don’t you know, whatever the equivalent is in car language. They’re just you know, waxing the pretty outside of the car and then there’s not much out

Chris Goegan 44:52
And like, you know, my thing is like, why not have both right? Yeah, yeah. Most people they’ve got the the wax on the So the car is nice and shiny, but they don’t have the insight. Why it’s not saying anything. There’s no differentiations no personality, there’s no heartbeat. There’s no connection. There’s no, there’s no nothing.

Heather Pearce Campbell 45:08
Yep, yep. Well, no, I love that I think you’ve got a fabulous approach. I love that it’s system oriented. We all need systems, you know, for folks that are sitting here going, Oh, my gosh, I’m still working too hard. I thought I had systems. And now I realize like, what Chris is talking about are systems that run without me that would allow me to take vacation to work fewer hours in a day. I mean, that’s, that’s really the takeaway, right? That’s

Chris Goegan 45:37
Forgive me for interjecting one. One other thing was systems and I gotta I gotta put pain here on it is it is, without systems, when you’re in your 20s, you got tons of energy 30s, you still have, you still have energy, if you get towards the end, later in your 30s, energy starts calling, you hit start hitting 40 it’s like, you know, you serve me get through your 40s it’s like you hit 15. And it’s like, no, but there’s gonna be some point in time. If you don’t have systems gonna be some point time, where you’re gonna wake up, and you’re gonna say,

Heather Pearce Campbell 46:11
I don’t want to do this anymore. Right? That energy trade off is no longer worth it. Like,

Chris Goegan 46:15
I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to keep I don’t want to do I don’t want to hustle. I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this anymore. I and you know, and you’re, you know, your spouse or friend or, you know, significant other will like say, Well, if you don’t do it, who’s gonna do it? You know, in your life, and you got to get up, you got to force yourself, you know, to, you know, to do the work, you know, so it’s really, it’s like, no, people have worked with people they’re like, but I love doing the work. It’s like, Great, well just build a system anyhow. Because, you know, yeah, and you keep doing it, you know, but you’ll be able to handle more people, because you’ll be more efficient, you know, with it. And then maybe at some point, time comes where you want to hire somebody else and stuff like that you want to grow or you get hard work. You’re all set, you’re done.

Heather Pearce Campbell 46:52
Plug them into the system. Yeah, totally. Yep. No, it’s so important. And I do agree. I think people recognize that pain that you’re talking about, where one day, they’re like, Man, this is too much or too hard. Or I want this to run without me. Right? And that’s the goal for a lot of small businesses. is so Chris, where do you show up online? For folks that are listening and clearly need to connect with you? Where would you like them to go online? Are you on social media? Do you just want them to go to your website, tell us about where you are.

Chris Goegan 47:20
So I’m online. I, I have I’m on Facebook, I’m on I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Twitter. But best place to best place to get me is if you just if you go to my website, I’m at And you go to the three systems, you can actually just click on right on the homepage, discover the three systems that will take you to to elite in a little video by me and then there’ll be a link to the three systems guide.

Heather Pearce Campbell 48:04
Yep. For anybody that’s listening, you can find you know, links to Chris on his various social media channels as well as his website and his three systems at legal website warrior comm forward slash podcast. So be sure to visit the show notes for all of those links. Chris, I you know, I love what you’re up to so many people in business need the kind of help that you provide? For folks? Yes, they absolutely do. And anybody listening knows they do for folks that are listening with us today? What, what final takeaway, or or action step would you like them to be thinking about right now?

Chris Goegan 48:40
Yeah, you know, really simple, like, just, like, get get a clear vision, you know, and I understand that, like, different people are at different cycles, but just get a clear vision for what you want your life to look like, you know, like, three, five years, or whatever timeframe, you know, like you can see just kind of clear vision for what you want. And then and then, from a business standpoint, look at your differentiation, and just just go on and you know, and be be honest, you know, look at not, don’t look at it, through your eyes, look at it through the eyes of someone else, looking around for different services, like what you provide. Yeah, and just see if you’ve got a unique differentiation. And if your personality is coming out with you know, through that as well to just do that, but use that as a starting point. And that should like start opening up your eyes,

Heather Pearce Campbell 49:27
Allowing that well and how often we think we have a clear vision, but when we dig into it, I have found that that can really be missing, right? the clarity of that vision is super important in order to be headed in the right direction. Yep.

Chris Goegan 49:41
Oh, and if you don’t have a clear vision, one of the things that to do is just like look at all the things you don’t want and just list those down. Okay, I don’t want to be doing all the sales myself. I don’t want to be doing like these marketing campaigns. I you know, I don’t want to work 80 hours a week. I don’t want you know, I don’t have I want to take a vacation she’s like I want to be able to like leave my phone at home you know I want to you know, so just just you start with that you know because it’s like you get a vision and then then after your vision you need to process engineer get words that we can we can provide that doesn’t matter where you are or where you want to go we help companies you know, like, you know, go from nothing to you know, like largest in the world in three years, you know, we’ve helped people we, we help help the you know, one company go from 3 million to 10 million in a year, and they seem to million dollars in expenses, have another guy go from 4,000,018 months later, he went through this this three month implementation group, he’s at 4 million He finished the class off. 18 months later, he’s at 20,000,018 months later, he’s at over 69 and sold the company.

Heather Pearce Campbell 50:50
This is the lawyer and me coming in and saying results are not typical. I’m not saying you can’t get.

Chris Goegan 50:56
Results are not typical. Big disclaimer said no, but they’re not. But results are typical based off work that somebody puts in Yeah, we have a very high success rate very high. But you have to be willing to do the work and you know and stay the course if you don’t, you know you’re not like yeah, we have a guy that like was nothing cold tracked. He like needed business. And worst time, small guy. Six weeks later, cold traffic made $145,000 it’s like so to me, these results are typical, right? Um, it when you have these things in place, Now, obviously, what the numbers, the numbers are going to be different with everybody. Yeah, but I don’t accept I don’t take any private clients in or I don’t take anybody in this program, unless I think they’re going to get results. Yeah. And so so when you do the work, it’s it’s it’s like the, it can become typical. You know what I mean? It’s like I understand from the water standpoint. But if you want to lose weight, if all you do is sit on the couch and eat Chunky Monkey and bond bonds, you’re not going to lose weight. If you want to lose weight, and you start eating healthier. And you go for walks. Well, results aren’t typical, but it’s pretty darn good chance you’re gonna lose weight.

Heather Pearce Campbell 52:05
Right? Exactly. Totally, no, I love that. And those are great examples. I think they’re very eye opening for how systems can support our businesses. Chris is so good to connect with you today. I so appreciate your time and sharing your brilliance and expertise with us. I hope we have the chance to connect again soon.

Chris Goegan 52:25
Thank you. Me too, Heather. Thank you for allowing me to share. Absolutely.

GGGB Outro 52:31
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.