March 14th, 2023
With Divian Mistry, a marketing expert for personal brands seeking to expand their businesses through established and reliable techniques, discusses his role as the founder of Headache Free Websites, a leading company focused on helping impact-driven coaches construct influential client-generating websites without the headache.
With a track record of success, including aiding clients in generating six months of income in three weeks, tripling event ticket sales in a single day, and quadrupling event registrations in a month, Divian draws upon his extensive experience in the field. After starting his first business at age 14, Divian became known as “The Ticket Master” at University. Divian has also been featured in numerous publications, including the Leicester Mercury Newspaper, and is the author of two books: The Naked Warrior: Release The Inner Warrior And Transform Your Life and Escape The Rat Race.
In this episode, Divian emphasizes the importance of understanding what to include on your website to attract more qualified leads, as well as how to overcome common obstacles faced in business. Additionally, Divian provides insights into the nature of bro marketers, their practices, and their impact on businesses.
Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of these topics.
Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:
- The difference between value and your self-worth.
- The “bro-marketer” crowd.
- “There’s two sets of people who get into business; people who know how hard it is, and people who are optimistic.”
- “When people come to the website for the first time, they don’t care about you… they’ve got a problem they want to fix.”
- Why you need to start doing authority building content.
“I connect with people because I personally feel that there is more purpose to running a business than just purely to make money and get clicks and sign people up.”-Divian Mistry
Check out these highlights:
- 13:42 Where do people get confused when setting up their website and their lead magnet?
- 19:15 The biggest challenge that people have in their personal brands online.
- 31:34 Divian shares some things that people do wrong in talking about the online hub.
- 38:17 For Divian, what are the components of the “secret sauce”?
- 52:26 What part of Divian’s work does he love the most in terms of serving his clients?
- 01:03:26 Divian’s piece of advice for the listeners.
How to get in touch with Divian:
On social media:
Learn more about Divian, by visiting his website here.
Imperfect Show Notes
We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.
GGGB Intro 00:00
Coming up today on Guts, Grit and Great Business®…
Divian Mistry 00:04
To know that I want to do this even if it’s because maybe you’re wise, I just hate my job. Right? And that’s not our purpose. But it’s a why that gets you moving forwards, because you’re gonna have hard days. You know, you’re gonna have days where you’re like, Why did I do this? You need something that can carry you through that so you can keep moving forward. And then eventually, at some point, you’ll get to a point where you’re like, I know why. And I can, I’d say now has more than ever before. I know my why. And this is the funny thing because my goal was always to work less. But now work no, my why I work harder than ever worked in my life. Like five days, I’m like, can I fit in another five minute conversation here or a little bit? Like I’m just packing like, Where can I find a slot to do something more? Because I love it. I love it and it serves my purpose.
GGGB Intro 01:02
The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.
Heather Pearce Campbell 01:35
Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving online information entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I am so excited to welcome my friend, Divian. Divian Mistry, welcome.
Divian Mistry 02:00
Hey, thanks for having me on the show.
Heather Pearce Campbell 02:02
Yeah. Good to have you here. I’m really looking forward to this. I have been looking forward to this you and I connected gosh, probably a few weeks ago now. But Divian and I are in a mastermind together. And he is the creator of headache free websites. So we’re gonna get into a bunch of website marketing branding stuff today. But for those of you that don’t know Divian, Divian is a marketing expert for personal brands who want to grow their business using proven time tested strategies. After starting his first business at age 14, he became known as the ticket master at University, has helped clients create six months of income within just three weeks, tripled event ticket sales within 24 hours, and quadrupled event registrations within one month. He raised 5000 pounds for the Make a Wish Foundation at a charity event he hosted with keynote speaker Kevin Greene from the TV show The Secret Millionaire. And he’s been featured in two business books. Welcome Divian. So excited to connect.
Divian Mistry 03:10
Yes, he’s really cool. I’m really grateful that I’m able to be on here.
Heather Pearce Campbell 03:13
Yeah, well, you’re talking to the right audience, right? So a lot of the vast majority of folks that I serve our expert-based businesses, many of whom are really building personal brands, or have some element of personal brand, you know, involved in even the build out of their business. So you know, it’s a unique crowd. And it’s my very favorite crowd to serve. And all of these folks have online based businesses, right. So this is a really important conversation, because one of the very first places that I often start with my clients is looking at what I call their home base, or their online hub, right? Often the cornerstone of their business. So we need people like you to help us really figure out how to do this, right, because I think so many people get it wrong.
Divian Mistry 04:05
Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more on this. I think in this online space, where you are the brand, there’s something that occurs, which doesn’t always occur in businesses where you are not the brand. And the way you sell is different as well, because you’re selling you to some level and your expertise. And what’s really interesting, I’ve found this pattern, and this is usually where the challenges or the mister don’t really like using them or mistakes, but the challenge is set in in that because you’re the brand, you often end up mixing up your value and your self worth. And then your marketing goes off. And then everything else goes up. And then you wonder why you don’t get sales and you wonder why it’s not working but it’s working for everyone else. And yeah, it causes a lot of challenges and causes a lot of disruption in just being able to get Time. So being clear.
Heather Pearce Campbell 05:02
Well, not such a big conversation around, you know, somebody’s value and self worth, right being tied up in a personal brand. It’s so true and reminds me of a conversation I had with another guest on the podcast, who also, you know, she’s not in the website space, but in kind of the business coaching space of people building personal brands. And a huge part of our conversation was around that, right? This this personal journey that we have in the build out of our business, and how much how much opportunity there is for personal development inside of the business journey. So I’d love to know a little bit more about the about your journey about how you got started about how you became interested in this area, would you share with us a little bit about your route?
Divian Mistry 05:54
Heather Pearce Campbell 09:00
Right? I get it. No, I love the ones that you shared. And yeah, even the early stories of figuring out that space, being able to build it again, like that had to feel like quite an accomplishment. And I like I just have so enamored with the way that you just described, you know, why you do your work loving to help people that help people, right? And it’s the same affection that I feel towards my clients as well. Like, these are folks that need to build a thriving business a thriving small business, right? They’re not building the next Google most of them because they’re building a business that they want to work in, like deliver a service through, deliver information through in order to achieve or partly fulfill their personal mission here in their life. Right. And so it’s a really special group of people. And that’s how I feel about them as well. Could you get in to some of the nuances because you mentioned one briefly right about those who are building personal brands, what distinguishes them a little bit from, you know, other types of business that are building, you know, building out a website, and some of the ways that you help folks in that space address some of those issues.
Divian Mistry 10:21
Sure. So, if so, the biggest difference I kind of touched upon is the difference between value and your self worth. So I want to touch on that a little bit. Because this is probably the biggest thing that holds any online, personal brand back is that, not being able to differentiate the difference between the two. And this is also part of my recording my mission in life is, people have infinite self worth, you have infinite self worth, I have infinite self worth anybody listening to this does. And you could sit on your bar for the rest of your life and you still worthy and you’re still loved, and you’re still amazing. And you still have huge potential beyond anything you could ever imagine. And then there’s the value. And the value is the stuff that you know, and that you can help people with. And what happens if people mesh these two together. And then to demonstrate their value, what they want most people do is go, I can do this, and I can do this, and I can do this, and I can do this, and I can do this. And they can do everything for everybody. And they probably can, you know, as entrepreneurs, we’re multi-passionate, I’m yet to meet an entrepreneur. He’s not multi-passionate, like I don’t think it exists. And so, you know, can I solve more problems with a website 100 present, we use unlikely to have loads of problems. But that’s the challenge is like we were then we’re presenting all this stuff going. Because what happens is, you say you put yourself into a niche, or you Americans niche. And then somebody says no to you. And what happens if people go, Oh, that’s about me. Yeah. And that’s yourself. And then you’re bringing yourself worth it. And then instead of going, okay, they said no, maybe they’ll the wrong client, maybe the offer needs changing, maybe the price needs changing maybe to market in different way. Maybe they didn’t see the value because I didn’t share it. Or maybe they’re just the wrong person. Yeah. And so then what we do is go, oh, maybe we need to go over here and do this thing. Well, this thing or this thing, and then you have this, like, you know, I’ve done a lot of homepage reviews. And I remember one of them. They’re like a coach who like just tapping and does a couple of other things. I can’t Reiki and something else aren’t exactly what. And on their website, they will solve this problem this one do this. And I went to them and I said, here’s the thing is what you’re actually selling is certainty of the Arkansas in the copy, I read this one line that said I can create permanent change about legally I don’t know if he claimed to do that. That’s your four parts. And next time I come across, I’ll send them to you.
Heather Pearce Campbell 13:06
I’ll go over there.
Divian Mistry 13:11
But I said if you can say them words, then that’s actually what you’re selling, because you want to serve all these different people. And that’s what you’re selling. And I said, took the example of one of the things that we do is help people with weight loss. So here’s to Alright, so that’s the self worth value conversation is another conversation that people kind of get confused, or don’t quite get as clear as they could, is, when they’re putting their website together. And their lead magnet and all the stuff around their website, they don’t always consider where somebody’s at in their journey. So they might have the right target audience, but they don’t consider whether. So for example, this person had, they help people lose weight. Now, here’s the thing, if you’re helping people lose weight, but you’re using tapping and coaching and other modalities to do that, well, that’s not the first thing I think of when I’m thinking of losing weight. I think of going to the gym, I personally love going to the gym, some people hate it, that’s fine doesn’t matter. Or eating healthily, which most people, including myself don’t necessarily want to do. And really, that you need to move and need to change what you eat, and then things you think, you know, maybe you go to Weight Watchers or something like that. But you’re not going to think of hiring someone to do tapping therapy with you at the beginning of your journey. So if you’ve got a lead magnet that says that talks to people at the start of their journey, when you’re doing something like that, you’re hitting them at the wrong point. Because at that point, they probably ain’t gonna hire you. They’re gonna try every single thing in the button almost give up and then they go, Oh, that’s different. So the lead magnet needs to speak to them at that point where they feel frustrated. They’ve tried everything but they haven’t tried this one thing over here. And that’s another, that’s one of the things that you’ve got to be clear about is, who’s your avatar? Who’s the person who’s speaking do so I speak to people who are coaches. But where are they are, and most of the time, I’m speaking to people where people we work with where it’s not that they’re not starting out, because they’re not the people we serve, they’re further down the line. You know, maybe they’ve built a business, and they’ve got revenue coming in. And they want, they’re at a stage where they want to, they’re having change in their business. So they’ve done a load of stuff, and then managed to get a load of business in and they’re successful, and they’re happy, they’re able to sell, but now they want even more clarity to to their audience. And it’s been a number of years. And so that’s where we position ourselves is actually how do we uplevel you from there to help you accelerate not to get started? So I think that’s the second thing, I’d say, is that conversation around? When you’re building your website, who are you building it from? What stage are they at in their journey? And are you speaking to them at that specific stage? Or are you speaking to them at the wrong stage?
Heather Pearce Campbell 16:13
It’s a huge one. And it’s, you know, you think about your own buying experiences, especially if you’re looking for somebody to solve a really specific problem, right? The level of confidence you have, when you land on a site like that, that’s like, oh, we do ABC XYZ, versus, you know, I’m the specialist. It’s like in my own journey recently, like having to connect with somebody who is specifically a specialist around thyroid, and women’s hormone health, right, very different than connecting with a naturopathic doctor that knows a lot about general health and like how to keep most people healthy. To you know, they could even both be naturopathic doctors, but very different focus and very different language being used in their marketing. And it the the level of confidence, it instills when you connect with somebody who’s giving you the message of knowing right where you are in your journey is huge.
Divian Mistry 17:18
Yeah, because if you take your two, the two examples you gave, they could both be equally as qualified to help you. Right. But because the person who’s talks about your challenge might be thyroid related, and women’s health, really, if they talk to that audience and exactly where they’re at, well, you’re gonna naturally gravitate towards that. And I want to hire them for that, you know, if you were the, the just the general legal person, people be like, okay, cool. You’re just another lawyer. Yeah, there’s 10s of 1000s of them out there. Just pick one, you know?
Heather Pearce Campbell 18:01
Totally. And the reality is, I do a wide variety of things for my particular clients, but you even look at my branding, you know, Legal Website Warrior. And when people come to me initially and say, what do you do, right? I protect online brands and online businesses of information entrepreneurs, and that has been enough to land me some very big clients in the space, I don’t have this long list of other things that I talk about. They’re like, Oh, you protect an online business like, well, that’s what I have. Right? Even though they actually have a bunch of offline components as well. It’s just that I know that for so many of them. That’s the focus. And that’s where some of their initial problems show up in their business. Right. So it was one of the best things that I did. In my journey, when I launched my second business was just around that branding piece of speaking to one specific problem had by like, a very specific type of client.
Divian Mistry 19:01
Yeah. And I think that if I was to say, what’s the biggest challenge that people have online is in personal brands, and the question you asked is actually haven’t answered the question. The biggest challenge is clarity. And this, and I’m gonna segue this, relate this into the question you asked, which is, how does it different from a business and doesn’t have a personal brand? Or if I’m selling a mouse, you know, that’s the mask with my website might be called mouse. Mouse is mouse for sale or, you know, I sell mice for my rubbish. I sell pens. I sell pens. And so it’s very obvious what you sell you sell pens. And so that component is already decided for you because you’ve decided based on what you’re selling. And so, if I say what’s the benefit of having a pen generally well, you and write stuff with it might talk about the amount of ink that’s inside it, how long it lasts, how it holds, what it’s made out of, etc, right, and the size of it, etc. And they might be components for me as a buyer. I’ve already got them clear in my head. I want a pen that’s, you know, a particular size. I mean, I love this is actually one of my clients pens. But I love these ones that for some reason that I just love feel comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. So sorry, if you see this, I’m talking to my back. Sorry, not sorry.
Heather Pearce Campbell 20:33
I’m talking to a pen thief. Hilarious. You’re the reason why all the businesses have to tie strings to the pen like at the front desk, right? Yes, yes. Put a big flower on the end. I know. I’m laughing because I I love pens. And I really love like a good writing utensil, I’m holding up this really fat, chubby one, right? That’s covered in rubber. And this is what I actually used to write the bar exam with many, many, many years ago. And I had to write like, I don’t know, 50 or 6011. Like, no, like long form legal size papers, right? Because it was all hand written essay. I know over the course of three days, it was nonstop raining like eight hours a day. I even with a pen like this that I specifically hunted out to be like the most comfortable thing I could write with. I lost the feeling in my thumb for six months after that exam, like because I put so much pressure on the nerve. Anyways, I love a good pen. But I get what you’re saying is that companies that are selling a product, a widget, even a software, right there’s there’s already clarity built into what it is where it fits in the marketplace, I think it’s you know, you still have to be clever, you still have to be smart about what you’re doing. But it’s it is very different than a personal brand.
Divian Mistry 22:01
Hmm. Right. Yeah. 100%. And I think that’s where people get confused as because they’re they and I’m not pooping anybody in particularly here because I don’t know who teaches this stuff. But there are some times where you see Facebook profiles, and they’re like, I do this for this type of person without this. And with that, so that they can do this. And they can do that. And I’m like, You’re just so unrecoverable at this point, like so right at the beginning, the most, the simplest thing to do is what do you do? And who do you do it for, and just keep it really broad, because in reality, most coaches don’t have enough leads and enough cycles.
Heather Pearce Campbell 22:44
At the beginning of the journey.
Divian Mistry 22:47
Even further down the line, because you want to capture that attention, right? If I do this for this person will just keep it really simple, I can capture the attention of them people. And then through looking at my marketing, or my website, you’re going to start to understand specifically, whether you resonate with me or not, whether it’s the specific problem you’re trying to solve, or not. Because most people when they’re looking to solve a problem, they’re looking for a coach, they’re going to to type in business coach, they’re not going to type in cash flow business coach for people with businesses, between 5 million and 10 million. That’s not what they type in, they do business coach, and then they look for coaches, and then talk about the problem and try, you know, or spiritual code, but they don’t go. Most people don’t do so granular, at least not at the start. Yeah. So that’s probably the quickest way that that helps people rattle down, like the clarity for their audience, whether at the start or whether they’re further down the line. That’s the biggest cloud, that’s the biggest thing that most people can shift, be really simple. And there’s this YouTube channel that I love watching this woman called Cody and I can’t remember her name. But she’s in America. And she talks about boring businesses. And now she loved this channel, because you just talked about boring businesses, right, you know, like laundromats and like car washes and stuff like that. Now, I’m not saying coaching is boring is definitely not. But the reason these businesses work is because they’re simple. And that simplicity, I’ve seen the pattern that always so simple. And it’s that simplicity of being able to communicate really simply what you do that gets you the needs, then you can have the conversation and decide whether the right time or not the like that’s that’s the biggest thing that differentiates between the CO the personal brands, and the product brands that you know, it’s easy to differentiate here that I sell pens, and it’s hard because we put our self worth into it or we get FOMO But if I only do that, then I won’t be doing this. And then I’ll message gets really confusing.
Heather Pearce Campbell 25:06
Heather Pearce Campbell 25:08
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Heather Pearce Campbell 26:58
What do you say to the people? Maybe this is a different question that or a different issue that are saying, you know you have you can’t speak to a broad audience. You can’t like maybe that’s too simple because you need to be talking specifically to a very specific person with a specific problem so that they know you’re for them. Good question. Right, because you’re that a lot in the in the branding and messaging marketplace. Right?
Divian Mistry 27:30
So I think there is a time and a place for you to get more specific than not too specific. Because I guess what I’m referring to is I’ve seen people’s Facebook profiles, or LinkedIn profiles where they’re like, I do this for this person who has this and this and this and this, and the list is so long, that it’s got it, it makes you on referral.
Heather Pearce Campbell 27:54
So okay, so yes, you’re making the point that it’s overbroad because the list is so long, versus being very specific.
Divian Mistry 28:04
Yes, yeah. Yep. Yeah. So I think it’s okay to be very specific, but also, it depends on again, comes back to what stage of business where you’re, if you’re at the start, you want to be very broad, because I don’t know anybody who’s set up and run a business really successful you as an iterated like, a gazillion times.
Heather Pearce Campbell 28:23
Yes, this is true. And I think what can often surprise people is they they launch their business thinking or new program thinking, I’m gonna serve these specific types of clients, but then ultimately, who shows up is quite a bit different than who they thought, right? So again, it forces an iteration because who actually ends up being attracted to that messaging or that service? Or that offer is different than what they thought in their mind, you know, the results would be so yeah, I think that it definitely is an evolution.
Divian Mistry 28:55
100% and then when when you become a bigger business, where you’re like, you know what, I am confident enough that I can bring in more than enough business. And I’m my when your problem. And I work with businesses like this, where you know, they’re usually at the mid to late six figures, seven figures kind of like that, they get to a point where they can’t handle all of the inquiries coming into the highest one team to do that. And then they’re handling it, but it’s using a lot of time because there’s a lot of inquiries where no one’s that person not actually intending on buying, they just want more information. That’s the point at which you go okay, now I need to be like, get more specific about what I do. Because I don’t want to use my resources for people who aren’t a good fit.
Heather Pearce Campbell 29:47
Yeah, this is such an important point. Yes. Once you have like more leads than you can handle and you recognize they’re not all the right fit, right having an extra filtration process. Something else to determine who exactly needs to be filtered that way versus this way into our funnel into our business?
Divian Mistry 30:08
Yeah. 100%. So that’s the point, I would say to people. Yeah, get get. So, you know, maybe you’re like a health coach, you start with a female health coach, right? That’s pretty broad. But you start getting clients, and then you’re like, actually, now I need to be I mean, now I need to be a female health coach for people with thyroid specifically, because I’ve got so many clients, they’re getting so many referrals there. And then you can start to add further layers of filtration that you could say, you know, only work with women over this age or only work in this specific geographical area, or, or people who have these kinds of jobs or, you know, harder Yeah, depends on what stage you’re at. If you’re like, you know, I’ve got more business than I can handle, then yeah, you got to get more specific.
Heather Pearce Campbell 31:03
Good problem to have, by the way. Let’s dig in, because I’m sure you’ve got some pointers on this. Things that people do wrong in talking about the online hub, right? The home real estate in the online space, things that people do wrong from a, whether it’s a design perspective, a client journey perspective, a structural perspective, right? Can you talk to us about some of the stuff that you see and that you six, when it comes to websites.
Divian Mistry 31:34
100% so we’ve spoke about the first one, which is getting, making sure you’re speaking to your right target audience and have the right copy on the page? One, the second one, I’d say is people, we all over the sell themselves, they go we do this, we do that and when I was actually saying this to a client the other day, and they burst out laughing, they’re like, that’s just hilarious. And, but that’s the truth is, if you’re going I could be I need to not be right, I do this, I do that. It’s like, well, how does that relate to the person? So that’s a big mistake that people make. And you can easily flip that on its head because, for example, yourself, you’ve had got certain qualifications doing what you’re doing, right? And so you can have a section where you talk about you. But you talk about in the context of why that’s important for them, right? How that helps them, not just hey, I’ve got, you know, I met a doctor. And I’ve never seen so many letters and qualifications, like ever in my life. On their website. I was like, This is ridiculous. And I heard that’s a problem, though. Like you’re creating credibility, but I don’t have a clue what any of that means.
Heather Pearce Campbell 32:44
Right? How is it relevant to me?
Divian Mistry 32:46
Yeah. So I think that’s what the other thing is, don’t we all over yourself, make it relevant for the person. And I’d say, the third thing, and these, by the way, these all interconnect is that you can’t fix one and not fix the other. Yeah, fix all of this. And same time, I’d say the third thing is the flow. And this kind of relates to the winning all over yourself. But most people prioritizing the flow, especially your homepage, just completely like you, most people just do it in the wrong order. And they don’t, I think it’s because they probably just don’t know what they’re doing. It’s nothing wrong with that. But it is one of the biggest mistakes. The home page needs to be very focused so that people can get what they need out of that. And so sometimes I see home pages where there’s just so much stuff, my brain doesn’t know where to look. So simple, works better. You know, like your website is quite simple. It’s focused on each section focuses on stuff. And so you know, you can really, you can consume that, and you want to move on to the next step. And then also consider in that flow, considering how you can build like authority with people. So I personally love to when I work with clients, we love to make sure there’s one lead magnet, so super clear, it’s been to the right person. And we repeat that several times on the homepage, because usually you want people to opt in to something, whether it’s a phone call, or whether it’s a downloadable lead magnet or webinar, whatever the usually one thing you want them to do, and then it kind of flows down. And the next flow is well, if they’ve not done that, what are they thinking, but they have scroll, so they are interested. So then we want to create some credibility. So we use logos and stuff that that shows our credibility. And then we flow into the third part, which is what I like to call authority building content. And this is what most people don’t do. Probably the biggest thing you could do is have some authority building content. A lot of the client side and to work with are usually spiritual on some level. And trust in that marketplace is like, here’s the floor is like way down in the basement.
Heather Pearce Campbell 35:13
And trust you mean from a consumer perspective?
Divian Mistry 35:18
Yeah, yeah, from a potential buyers perspective or even and they’re so low that even the lead magnet itself, they might not download it straight away. So I love to have this authority wherein content is completely free content that shares case studies and stories and information that helps people to connect with you, and then want to take the next step. And so that’s, and there’s many other things that we add in there as well. But that flown, often people just don’t do get that. And the other thing I’ve seen is where you have a website, and that bit above the fold. So that’s the stuff that loads without new scrolling is just like, so empty, you’re like, what? Like, what am I looking at? I don’t know what like, is that the website? Or was it just the brand page. And so it’s prioritizing the wrong things and attained, the biggest tip I can help people with his or give is, when people come to the website for the first time. They don’t care about you.
Heather Pearce Campbell 36:30
Right. They’ve got a problem.
Divian Mistry 36:33
They’ve got a problem they want to fix, they don’t care, you know, you put your logo as the biggest thing on the screen, you don’t put your images, the biggest thing, you need to put the thing that solves their problem as the most central thing, so that they’re most likely to take action on that. And there’s a lot of people don’t do that. There’s a lot of people who put that way down here and, you know, way down the page. And so, yeah, I’d say that there are three things is get the right target audience, right copy, don’t we all over yourself and have the right flow, so that they can take action quickly and build, you know, keep it simple and build that relationship?
Heather Pearce Campbell 37:14
When you’re doing this work for clients, right? And because you’re helping them kind of suss this stuff out, right. A lot of this I don’t think comes naturally to people, for the most part, we’re all too close to our work, right? We’re too close to ourselves, we just don’t see things clearly, from the perspective of even, you know, what might make us unique in the marketplace, or you know, what somebody else sees when they show up that either stands out or does not stand out enough about what we do. Right? So when you are helping people go through this process? Is there like I’d be curious, like what types of questions you are asking your clients that helped pull this stuff out? Right? I’d love for listeners to be able to hear like, what should I be focusing on that maybe I don’t see yet about my own business?
Divian Mistry 38:07
You want the secret sauce?
Heather Pearce Campbell 38:08
The secret sauce? Yeah, yeah, I mean, still doesn’t mean people are gonna be able to do it themselves.
Divian Mistry 38:15
More than happy to share. So the first question I usually ask is very simple, who do you serve? And how do you serve them? And if they’re not clear, they’ll give me some number like mumbo jumbo answer. And they will go off into too long. Yeah, one or two things. Are we too long? Or they will talk about the logistics.
Heather Pearce Campbell 38:35
Yeah. So right versus the destination? Yes.
Divian Mistry 38:39
Yeah. So there’ll be like, you know, it’s a six-week program. And it’s delivered online and right. That’s really cool. So then I started delving into. So another question I then asked is giving an example of a client, the client you absolutely love serving? Like, who’s your best client? You’ve been talking to me about how you serve them? What problem there is, talk to me about the conversation and what problem that you solve for them and give me the story. And usually, that starts to like, unveil the juicy stuff. Yeah. If that doesn’t, the next question I asked. And I learned this one actually, probably about a year ago, which was interesting. And this one’s quite interesting one, because I didn’t think this would get answers that it does get is why usually, the question is like, why do you do what you do? Like, why did you even start a business and not instead of focusing on what do you enjoy just why do you start a business? Which is interesting, because, like, how does that get you to the point of, you know who that clarity, but usually people ramble on and then they get that clarity from that question. So they’re the three questions but I’d say there’s one or the component that the super secret sauce, the super secret ingredient, which is actually very difficult to emulate yourself. But one of the things that I’m very good at is holding like an emotional space for people. So when they’re answering these questions, they really, really helps their heart, just drop all them Gods, and just be really real with me. And when that happens, and you can call it whatever you want universe, energy, spirit, God, broccoli, whatever you want to call it, you know, that then allows you to talk to your intuition, or your higher self or God or whatever you want to call it, and really start to speak the truth of why you’re in business and who you want to serve and how you want to serve them. And that beer is, you know, I struggle to do that for myself, I have to get people to do that. But that there, even if it’s a friend, even if it’s not somebody like we you build a website, and does that, even if it’s just a friend, that component, I think, is almost compulsory. And may sometimes you’ll have days where you’re in that space by yourself, and you can then utilize that and use these questions and get the answers. But yeah, I’d say that is one component that’s super important to be able to get really clear. Because really, I’m not I’m not talking. You know, I don’t know about you, but I am not the diversity wants to work with the ROI kind of business people like, just doesn’t resonate with me. Right. I want to work with people who want to make an impact. And yes, they want to make a lot of money as well. Yeah, but they the impact is the understand the impact is so important to get the money coming in not just the sell anybody and everything.
Heather Pearce Campbell 41:56
Oh, that’s right. No, and I know whether it’s the right term or not, right, it’s the I call it kind of the bro marketer crowd that are all about clicks and measuring every and again, it’s not to say that measuring stuff in your business is not a good idea. Of course, it’s a good idea. But when it’s all about, like, the conversion and the clicks, like I know, folks in the industry whose business model is based on Facebook ads, and their goal is to optimize for everybody get as many people inside of these kind of churn and burn type programs, but their refund, percent, like their refund rate is like 50% Right. And I Yeah, and I’m so clear that that’s not who I’m here to serve. Right, I am here to help the folks that are very clear on their mission that have a really high sense of ethics, right, they need support building a business because they’re so clear on their mission and like what what role they play in it, right, we have to surround ourselves with good people to help us build out anything. And so it’s you know, but fundamentally, it’s more challenging for some of the what I call even micro businesses to get that support right to connect with the right people and even what you talked about as far as confidence being really low like trust being really low even in the world of clients that you work with, I think in the online business space generally that can happen because so many people do get hoodwinked along the way right they end up signing up for like pretty massive services or support that to them represents a really big payment from their business and really not getting the results or the support that they need it.
Divian Mistry 43:43
Yeah, and I think the industry these days a thing the industry that we speak to is also very different to other industries. I think we spoke about this when we connected a few weeks ago it’s very different and people can draw people and people are using fear the bro marketers are actually I do a weekly live stream on Facebook called the on purpose Marketing Show and my tagline is throw out the bro and welcome in the flow marketing.
Heather Pearce Campbell 44:15
I love it the on purpose marketing show we’ll have to share links over to that as well.
Divian Mistry 44:20
And so the thing is that in this world these bro marketers have come in and I do think it’s changing. I think it’s time to change but the pro marketers come in and they use fear based marketing to attract people and you don’t need to just use love based marketing flow marketing. And it’s not about the strategies and tactics but it’s about the ethics and the way you implement them. That causes the difference between the two. And I think this speaks to like a and this is probably why I loved our conversation previously. You allocated 15 minutes, and we were on the phone.
Heather Pearce Campbell 45:05
Right? I know.
Divian Mistry 45:07
It was fun. But this is like I connect with people like yourself, because I personally feel that there is more purpose to running a business than just purely to make money and get clicks and sign people up. And there is a level of what’s the word I’m looking for. We’ve got power, there’s power in what we do. And so there’s responsibility in what we do. And it’s important that we use that in a way to serve other people and make the world a better place. Nor just to make sales. Yeah, by any cost. Because the other thing is, you know, you can have the bro marketers go, right, I’m gonna make these money, then we’re going to donate some of it over here. But the thing is, if you’re doing that, but you’re selling at any costs, you’re only balancing all the negative you’re putting into the world, there’s not adding anything, you’re just making a neutral.
Heather Pearce Campbell 46:04
It’s a really good perspective. Well, I joke regularly based on the problems that I end up seeing in online businesses, and, you know, even for my clients, when they’re dealing with others, whether it’s their clients or other people in the online space. And I regularly say a big dose of ethics would solve the vast majority of these problems, right? And it is fascinating to me, even in the we’ll call it the spiritual guru space, or the, you know, even like the self development, the personal development space, how frequently I see a lack of ethics happening in businesses in that space. Right. So you are right, that there are reasons why I think customer confidence can be really low. And for people who want to stand out and do business differently, like, I mean, first of all, I tend to connect with people who already have those ethics built into them, like it’s part of you know, who they are. So I ended up not having to teach my own clients about ethics. But often when I’m dealing with other parties, it’s like, if people would just slow down long enough to think about whether or not this is an ethical choice, they would have made a different choice. Yeah. And the ripple effect of that is significant, right? I think, you know, for small businesses that worry because I do see this as well, people thinking like, well, you just have to do it this way. Or this is what I was taught in this marketing seminar or whatever they think that they need to follow some of these other tactics and strategies, rather than doing something that feels really true to them from the start. And so they end up having painful experiences along the way, trying other people’s ways to do things, right?
Divian Mistry 47:56
Yeah. And that applies whether you are getting clients or not, obviously, not getting clients is very obvious, you’re not getting clients. But if you then use that is, I would say it’s even worse, if you use them strategies, and you get clients, or now you get clients you don’t actually want to work with, right, and they’re a pain in the butt. And then you get refunds, or like you get is just and then you go, Why did I even get into business? Yeah, maybe I should just have a job carried on in the job, you know, because in reality, especially for us, people who are emotionally and spiritually connected, the feeling of what we do override any amount of money we’re ever gonna make, you know?
Heather Pearce Campbell 48:38
Totally 100%. For most of my people, it’s not about the money. And you know, and I’m a big belief that you can build a highly ethical, sustainable business and make lots of money, because you are working from connection to your purpose to your mission, because you’re doing it the right way. And not the other way. Right. Not like some trade off, like, Oh, if I do it this way, I’m just not going to make as much money. No, not true.
Divian Mistry 49:09
Yeah. no, 100% is not true. And it’s really important you follow the way in which you follow your gut, and you follow how you want to be in the world. So we can make the world a much better place than what it is now. And I just get the sense that people are waking up, and it’s still a long way to go, but people are waking up from the bro marketing strategies, where, you know, this is the only course you need and then there’s an upsell or if it’s the only course I need, why is there an upsell to supercharge your results, you know, I made this much money in like three days. Now, I am completely aware that in my profile that you read out that there are some big claims right? But I want to put Isn’t the contract then people were not starting our business, or didn’t come in and get them to make six months income in three weeks with nothing, right? They already had a business, they’re already had success, I tweet help them tweak to go faster. And so it’s really important that you see that. And the other thing about bro marketers is they don’t give context. And so there’s somebody I was talking to recently who pretend to he wants to hire my services I don’t think will happen. But he’s in his mastermind where they do ads, right, and to fill up courses and stuff. And he was telling me, you know, he quit his job. And he’s doing this spend $1,000 a month just from the mastermind with no income. And I’m like, either you’ve got a crazy amount of money in the bank, or you’re crazy, or both? Who knows? And then he’s telling me, he’s gonna sell this online course for starting at $200. And make a ton of money. And I’m like, and I just tried to convince him otherwise. But he didn’t want to listen to me, because he’s bro market has gotten his head $10,000 or $200,000? In some of them? seven figures, which I’m like, Yeah, but you have no audience, you have no product, you’ve never sold it before, and you’re selling it for $200? Do you even know what it costs to generate a lead? Right? Because you’re probably going to spend $200 generating lead.
Heather Pearce Campbell 51:16
That’s right, and what the real marketers are not teaching people inside of their audiences, for the most part, although I’ll be honest, that I don’t live very often inside of any of those audiences is what it actually takes from a numbers perspective to achieve that kind of launch. Right? You’re not talking about like one or two JV or affiliate partners, you’re talking about, like dozens and dozens or hundreds of mailing partners to achieve that kind of a launch. Right? And so it’s, yeah, I do, which also is why I appreciate so much people who are transparent about their own business model, what it takes in their path of teaching other people what it took to get there that they’re they’re removing the veil, they’re not adding to it right. I think, yeah, I think that can be a challenge for people to find. So out of respect for your time, a couple final questions for you. What is it I’d be curious what part of your work you really love the most in in serving your clients?
Divian Mistry 52:23
That’s easy. When I hold the emotional space to help them figure through stuff, and when they get that clarity, they’re just like, wow, that’s just so clear. And that’d be I actually love that bit. Because there’s nothing I can replace that bit that, you know, once we have that conversation, they just feel like, uplifted. And especially because a lot of people I work with, you know, they’re very good at what they do. Yeah. And so because they’re very good at what they do, what ends up happening is there’s not many people that they can have connected real conversations with an open up their heart and their business in a really true way. Yeah, and share it and so I ended up becoming one of them trusted with the word mommy fiduciary, trusted advisor
Heather Pearce Campbell 53:14
Divian Mistry 53:15
Wises, and they share more than that they usually share stuff about their life as well, which is, I love talking. So talking is fun.
Heather Pearce Campbell 53:26
Well, and I love the way that you describe that. Like I actually got goosebumps when you first describe like the special piece of it actually being just the ability to hold space for having the right conversation. It does really take working with the right people to achieve that. And even the question before that, right, you’re number three on the list, which is asking somebody why they do what they do. I have a presentation that I do and and early on in that presentation. i That’s a question I ask is like, not everybody becomes an entrepreneur, right? There was a point in time you either made a decision or circumstances changed or something and you made a choice that led to you becoming an entrepreneur. You know, what was the reason you did that? Like, did you think it would be easy, right? The answer to that is always no. Like nobody thinks entrepreneurship is going to be easy. What right? Then what is it they think it’s going to be worth it? Well, what makes it worth it? It is attached to their why they’re doing that’s what makes it worth it right? Whether it’s freedom or family are being in control of their time or being able to apply their brainpower in a specific way that they really enjoy doing versus being told or directed how to do that right. So any number of things but that I tell them that is what I protect. That is how I view my work. Is it my job to protect your ability to show up for your why every day of your life so long as you want to and do that meaningful work? That’s what I protect. Right? Yeah. But it’s at the heart of everything. And even around the topic of like grit and perseverance. I think, you know, I’ve had lots of discussions about that topic on the podcast, and it’s a topic that I love. It takes really, truly being and staying connected to your why to stay on the path of entrepreneurship. Right. So it’s a really important question. And I think one that we should be asking all the time.
Divian Mistry 55:32
Yeah, 100%, you said people get into business. So I do think there’s two sets of people to get into business people know how hard it is, and then people who are optimistic, I’m going to be honest, I was in the optimistic category, when I first started in business, cars will be a breeze you just did. And then…
Heather Pearce Campbell 55:54
Do you know, Dave, is that in our mastermind? I’m laughing because he tells a story of thinking, you know, when he really transitioned from running a whole bunch, and he tells this story over and over and over, I’m not sharing any secrets. Transitioning from like, a live workshop in person model to the online world. He’s like, I totally thought I was gonna be sitting at home wearing bunny slippers and just like rolling in the dough, you know? And I laugh, because I’m like, Yeah, I think a certain percentage of people do sign up for that, like with that image in mind, like, oh, yeah, it can’t be that hard.
Divian Mistry 56:28
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That’s hilarious. Because there’s a truth some people do start that was my vision is set up a business, and kind of have loads of time freedom. And I actually in my previous business, got to the point where I had not full time freedom, but I was only working half a day, two day a week, as other law time freedom. And I’m gonna be honest, it was boring. It was unfulfilling. And I set up that business just purely to make money. I wasn’t emotionally kind of doing it for the bearer of people, I just like to want to make money. And I just want to be clear, because we’re talking about people to connect it to their purpose, it’s okay to also have a business where you just want to make money, but that’s probably not the people. That’s probably not your core thing, if you’re our kind of people because you’re gonna get bored of it. And that’s what happened to me is I got bored because there’s, like, doesn’t serve a purpose. So yeah, I think not many people get, I think people either get into business know, it’s gonna be hard work. Or they’re just optimistic like I was. And then they figure out it’s hard work. And I used to have these conversations I used to presentation, you can work four hours a week and did it, but I never used to, and there was a turning point where I was like, I need to stop selling it like this. Because I didn’t start a business working four hours a week, I started a business grinding. And then I got to a point where I was able to work four to eight hours a week, which took a number of years and a lot of hard work and loads of mistakes and cost loads of money and debt. And then I got there. So thing is, yeah, you’re right. There’s, it takes a lot of hard work to build a business. And you do need that decrease why? And when I started, I didn’t, I didn’t really know why. But I figured it out.
Heather Pearce Campbell 58:17
I actually love that you mentioned that, like you figured it out along the way. Because I think there’s also a segment of people that think like, at the start, like, well, I don’t really know if this is my purpose. But I do have a particular expertise that I can share or whatever. And I’ve said this a couple of times on the pet podcast, I eventually read the grit, the book, Grit by Angela Duckworth. After I launched the podcast, I was like I should probably go read that book on grid since my podcast is named Guts, Grit and Great Business®. And I really love a point that she makes in there about like, not everybody knows their purpose. And often you start in on the work and then your purpose develops over time you create meaning out of your work, and then you can become attached to your purpose where it’s you know, really has a strong relationship to your work, but people shouldn’t feel bad if they’re just trying to figure it out.
Divian Mistry 59:14
Yeah, I agree. You don’t need to feel bad because and that is I found for me that’s the reason I’ve pivoted so much because I can’t I if I just just straight off top my head I’ll probably have 10, 15, 20 different business ventures over the years. Like because I’m like well let’s try this Oh, I made some money call but this system doesn’t quite okay, let’s try this movie. And then you keep pivoting as you go along. And it’s not an I don’t think even finding your purpose, it’s a finding your purpose is a never ending journey. But even once you found a hole of my parents but found a part of it, and then it’s still going to develop from here and it gets deeper and clearer and all that kind of stuff. But you do need in some way, like, you do need some way, even at the beginning, you need to know that I want to do this even if it’s because maybe you’re wise, I just hate my job. Right? And that’s not our purpose. But it’s a why that gets you moving forwards. Because you’re gonna have hard days. You know, you’re gonna have days where you’re like, Why did I do this? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, you need something that can carry you through that. So you can keep moving forward. And then eventually, at some point, you’ll get to a point where you’re like, I know why. And I can nap, I’d say now had more than ever before. I know my why. And this is the funny thing, because my goal was always to work less. And now work no, my why I work harder than ever worked in my life. Like, my days, I’m like, can I fit in another five minute conversation here? Or a little bit? Like, I’m just packing? Like, where can I find a slot to do something? Because I love it. I love it. And it serves my purpose.
Heather Pearce Campbell 1:01:03
Right? Yeah. Well, that is the gift of of being able to create a scenario where you do work that you love, right? Which is why it’s paramount that we help more people do more work that they love doing it. Just it you know, that’s my belief is it makes the world a better place. And so, yeah, Divian, I’m so glad that we’re connected. It’s been so fun to chat with you today on the podcast. Where do people find you? For folks that are like, Man, I need to go check out Divian’s work I need to check out and I’m just gonna mention it again. Headache free websites? Yes, please. Are you connecting primarily through your website? Do you spend time on social media, let us know where you are.
Divian Mistry 1:01:48
So you can go to my website, there’s also going to be another link in the show notes to a specific guide, which I only give out now. And then it’s not publicly available, which is called the 11 Most Effective Strategies to Capture More Leads from your Website in the next 60 days without spending more on traffic. So there’s things in there you can implement to get more out of your website. So the link will be in the show notes because it’s easier to just click a link than for us to read out what it is and type it in. Or you can connect with me on Facebook and LinkedIn. Facebook, just search Divian Mistry, I’ve got green image as my image I probably won’t change it. And LinkedIn is the same site or headache free websites and I should come up.
Heather Pearce Campbell 1:02:36
Okay. Excellent. So Divian, and thank you for that. If you’re listening, be sure to pop over you can check out Divian. You can connect with him on social media, we will share both your main website and the opt in link for that gift that sounds like an amazing gift at the show notes page, which you can find at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Divian, what final either takeaway or action step would you like to leave our our listeners with today?
Divian Mistry 1:03:09
You warned me about this at the start and I didn’t write?
Heather Pearce Campbell 1:03:14
That’s okay. All right.
Divian Mistry 1:03:15
I think the thing that I want to leave people with is I think what we just spoke about which is wherever you’re at, you’ve just got to keep moving forwards. Because I’ve had so many points in my entrepreneurial journey where I’ve gone. That’s it just gonna go and get a job. And I didn’t, and I chose, you know, it’s not easy. It is a hard way if you want to make an easy income, go get a job. Yeah, if you want to make a purposeful income, run a business, and it does get hard, but I promise if you keep stuck in then you keep changing and iterating and moving forwards and being getting back up again and moving forwards. Your hands down at some point you’ll figure it out. And when you figure it out. You’ll be like, Oh, that was so close to me.
Heather Pearce Campbell 1:04:13
Right? Yes. Oh, I love that. Yes. I hope people will hang on to that if they feel like they’re currently in a hard spot. Divian, it’s a joy to be connected. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
Divian Mistry 1:04:26
GGGB Outro 1:04:30
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.