With Jeremy Pope, a former clinical and stage hypnotist who is now the Founder of Sales Call Overhaul that helps entrepreneurs build scalable high-ticket sales departments. Jeremy has been a top salesperson, sales manager who made $1.7mm per month in revenue for his team, and sales trainer for international businesses, including the direct-marketing giant Guthy Renker. From there, he became the client success director for Traffic and Funnels. Currently, he does sales coaching with the POD program that is run by Alex Schlinsky. After thousands of sales calls, sales coaching for over 15 years, and building over 200 funnels, he realized that he is indeed an Overhaulic.

Join us for our conversation as Jeremy talks about helping the A.C.E.S (Agencies, Consultants, Experts and SaaS) move to collaborative selling and increase their closing rates. You will also hear Jeremy share his experiences from being a former hypnotist that taught him about sales mindreading. 

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • How Jeremy was introduced to hypnotism.
  • “All persuasion is the same.”
  • “Listening in healthy ways will sell so much better than you think.”
  • Why is it that people who can’t learn also can’t be hypnotized?

“If you’re using a script (in a sales call), you should get so good at it that you can ignore it and pay attention to the person in front of you.”

-Jeremy Pope

Check out these highlights:

  • 17:27 Jeremy shares what we need to do when we’re collaborating.
  • 28:05 How listening properly works well in sales.
  • 29:45 What is NLP?
  • 32:20 Jeremy explains what VAK (Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic) is and how it is related to sales.
  • 42:28 What should collaboration be about?
  • 46:31 Why overwhelming people with technical overload is NOT going to work.

How to get in touch with Jeremy:

On social media:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jeremythepope/ https://www.facebook.com/salescalloverhauldotcom


Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/salescalloverhaul_official/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdk1NvlMc4ASUSA3umwoYAg

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-pope/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/scalloverhaul

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@salescalloverhaul

Learn more about Jeremy by visiting his website here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business™…

Jeremy Pope  00:05

If you want someone to be confused and paralyzed, keep them in the dark about what happens next. It’s the perfect way to create confusion and paralysis. And that’s why poker players keep the other players in the dark. It’s why a boxer or an MMA fighter tries not to telegraph their moves is because they want their opponent to be confused and paralyzed and indecisive. It’s perfect. But when we’re collaborating, when we want someone to make a healthy adult decision that is good for their own growth. And that is a good foundation for a relationship. We need to telegraph it. It’s the exact opposite of what most people are taught to do. And it creates a remarkable difference in the pressure in the call itself. The buyer’s remorse immediately afterwards, and then the refund and chargeback rate over time.

GGGB Intro  01:03

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:35

Alrighty, welcome. Hello. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving information entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business™. I’m super excited to bring you my new friend, Jeremy Pope. Welcome, Jeremy.

Jeremy Pope  02:02

Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:04

I’m so excited. You’re here. You know, when we first connected, I just remember so enjoying our conversation. And there’s a lot of overlaps both in the folks that we serve. And I think in the way that we think about certain things and think about certain topics. So this will be a lot of fun. I’m really looking forward to digging in to your expertise and your particular flavor of your expertise. I think this will be really fun for our audience.

Jeremy Pope  02:32

I’ll tell you, I’ll warn you ahead of time, I have way more flavor than I have expertise.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:37

This is good. This is why we get along. All right. So for those of you that don’t know Jeremy, Jeremy Pope is a former clinical and stage hypnotist who now helps entrepreneurs build scalable high-ticket sales departments. He’s been a top salesperson, sales manager, and sales trainer for international businesses, including the Direct Marketing Giant Guffey Ranker. Now he and his team at sales call overhaul, I love that the name by the way, helped build high-ticket sales departments and help smaller businesses, repair broken sales methods. You can join their free Facebook community at salescalloverhaul.com/join. Jeremy, welcome. Jeremy joins us today from the other coast. I’m in Seattle and Jeremy is in North Carolina. 

Jeremy Pope  03:35

Yeah, it sounds like mountains of North Carolina. So I have I think 200 waterfalls within two hour drive of me. It’s amazing. It’s so beautiful.

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:45

Well, and before we went live, I was commenting on his artwork behind him and he was telling me that he lives near a lot of waterfalls. So it’s fabulous. I’ve heard beautiful things about North Carolina has never been so one of these days. My husband actually went to school out there but he’s threatened many times to take me back there with him and travel around for a bit so I’m looking forward to it. So Jeremy, talk to us a little bit about your roots in hypnotism. I’m so curious I didn’t, we were talking and I just don’t think I’ve ever had a hypnotist yet on the show. Tell me how you got into that.

Jeremy Pope  04:26

Well, oh goodness, I got into it because I was shiftless and a lazy bum and that you know, various other things like that. But I was having memory trouble. And this was age 21 Something like that. And so I was looking for something to improve my memory. I was forgetting where I was putting things and stuff like that undiagnosed ADHD turns out to be what was going on there. So I started looking for ways to deal with this. And self hypnosis kept coming Not over and over. And so I started doing that four days in. I was not forgetting where I put anything anymore. And so I started saying, Well, what else can I use this for? And so I started using it for a bunch of other stuff for myself, and started going, well, if I do it for myself, then could I do this for other people too. And so I did. And that’s what got me into hypnosis. I was in Well, I am an NLP practitioner. That was the first style that I ever trained in. And yeah, that’s, that’s where I learned how to sell as well being a hypnotist.

Heather Pearce Campbell  05:40

I’m curious how you went from memory issues, right? And I have a couple of ADHD people in my house. So I know what you’re talking about. How with that issue. You connected the dots to hypnotism. What introduced you to hypnotism?

Jeremy Pope  05:56

Oh, goodness, Google searches.

Heather Pearce Campbell  05:58

Google. Okay,

Jeremy Pope  05:59

This was 2000-2001. Okay, so, yeah, I just, I was just looking anywhere I could find, or that so… 

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:08

That’s fascinating. Yeah. Are there people that hypnotism doesn’t work on?

Jeremy Pope  06:17

People who can’t learn can’t be hypnotized. So if there’s a learning disability that is deep enough, that you just really can’t learn something new, then it’s a pretty safe bet that you just really can’t be hypnotized either. I have kind of an unusual take on that, that hypnosis is learning, not data input, but learning like skill learning, true learning. And that learning is hypnosis, which is not what most hypnotists will tell you. Everybody’s got their own opinions in that realm. But I feel pretty strongly about that. And so I found that people who are in a good mental place to be able to learn effectively, and to learn skills effectively, tend to be in the best place to be hypnotized as well.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:04

Interesting. So I have just as a disclaimer, I have very little experience with hypnotism. But the ones that I had were profound. I went to a presentation of all the places at the high school where I grew up. And they had a hypnotist on stage. That and I don’t know how this works like audience versus like, one on one services, right. So maybe there’s a big distinction between you’ve done both? Yeah. So there I can’t remember who it was they pulled out of the audience. But it was one of these extreme body scenarios where like, the person was hypnotized. And they could be flat as a board with their head, just their head on one chair, and their heels on another. And yep, like the number of times I’ve thought back on that example. And then somebody stood on their stomach, and they stayed flat as a board. And it was insane. Like, as, for me, growing up, I was an athlete, I was in weight training, right? I did all of these things. And I held a bunch of weight records. And I remember thinking, How was this possible? Like, I remember literally trying it trying to put my head on a chair. You didn’t mean after the fact. And so, one, that image has always stayed with me like how profoundly and there were other other parts of that demonstration that were that were really significant. But I remember thinking like, Wow, super impactful, and it obviously works on some people. The funniest thing about that demonstration was they brought a teacher up on stage and before he was hypnotized, they asked him to sing like, Blue Suede Shoes, like an Elvis Presley song, and he was like, No, I don’t even know that song. You know, and was really super resistant. And then they hypnotized them and then told him to sing blues. And he sang the song out word for word. You know, there have been some funny things like that that I’ve seen over the years where I’m like, there is something there I don’t know a lot about hypnotism, but I know that’s powerful. Right? What did you see as you got into it and started taking this like to your clients, right, you did this as part of your work. What did you see in your work as a hypnotist?

Jeremy Pope  09:23

Well, I saw a lot of things. I’ve done the stage hypnosis shows like that, and they’re a lot of fun. I’ve never done the let’s create back problems for someone trick with the chair and the head and the feet. Because I have heard there’s so much so many rumors in the hypnosis world it’s there’s no governing body or anything like and there’s no central database of information either. So there’s a lot of guessing going on back before YouTube. YouTube is the best learning tool since the book Are for things you can’t get from a book YouTube is it so there are a lot of good hypnotists out there these days. But the I did an awful lot of fun things onstage and with clients to create some drama in the room so that they could believe in themselves and believe in the process and etc. So, one of the big things that I found was that all persuasion is the same. Persuasion is coaching is motivation is influence is sales is relationships is, you know, it’s, it occupies a different space on that spectrum. But it’s all kind of the same. And so just being willing to access the principles that get somebody to move off of zero in coaching can be very effective for the same thing in sales. And so, there are a lot of, I teach people what I call Well, let me let me back up a second, there are a lot of givers stuck in a taker process, or using a taker process. And so when they move to a giver process, they can immediately be at home with themselves, and they’re immediately going to sell better just because they’re more integrated now. And then the process itself, it tends to work better also. And so they get an even a double bump in their close rate, things like that. Moving people toward integration, that’s been kind of the big lesson for me, whether it’s in sales, or in motivation, or in coaching, or, or hypnosis, the the big five that I… the big five topics that ended up coming up more than anything else were weight loss stopped smoking, asthma, allergies, chronic pain, and phobias that was 90% of my business as a hypnotist. And then I would occasionally get the, like, dental surgery, like come into the dentist and stop the bleeding, because this person can’t do anesthesia or do hypnotic anesthesia and stop the bleeding and the salivation for the dentist. So yeah, the mind really ties into the body a lot deeper than a lot of Westerners give it credit for you know, so there was always the weird fun stuff. But the big stuff was just who people want to be, and helping them shift their identity in ways that support their ecology and helping make sure they change their ecology, their ecosystem around them to support that new identity, etc. So it’s the same thing in sales.

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:49

Well, I love the topic, first of all of integration. And although I think I know what you’re talking about, for folks that are listening, will you describe what you mean, when you say a lot of givers are stuck into takers? Yeah, says or paradigm or whatever.

Jeremy Pope  13:06

There’s a lot of high pressure sales processes out there. And I’ve worked for a couple of people that use those high pressure sales processes. There are, there are an awful lot of small entrepreneurs that go through a coaching program. And I have seen the exact same sales script in over three dozen different coaching programs. Now. I’ve helped build out hundreds of funnels and mean so many sales processes, and a lot of seven figure businesses and stuff like that. But we see very consistently, people just grabbing piecemeal stuff that they’ve seen before. And maybe it’s from their current coach, maybe they liked something they saw on Facebook and added it to what their current coach does, et cetera. But you’re not your coach. And you may not even jive with your coaches’ values sometimes. But I know a lot of people have been through coaching programs that it was a very different value system. And so there’s some accidental toxicity there with people who have no intent to be toxic. They just don’t know any better. And in any specialized field will have this effect going on. building inspectors will walk, Why would anyone do that to their building? It’s like, okay, some of the stuff is not common sense. It’s not just intuitive. But after a while, it feels like it ought to be right. So we have to make sure that we’re experts in a field. We’re being kind to the people that are newer to this and maybe doing some naive things or some some very condescending things just out have their own innocence because they don’t know any better. So removing condescension, and removing hyper authority frames, removing those, those are really a couple of the big ones removing ambushes from the sales process. That’s a big part of what I like to do. I have a firm, no ambushes policy, with marketing, sales, motivation, team leadership, etc. When we’re collaborating, when, when we are working together, when we’re dancing together, we telegraph our moves to our partner, like you apply pressure to the shoulder or the back, or whatever you’re doing, to let them know what you’re going to do next. And so they can follow with you. And there’s skill involved in collaborating. Most of the sales calls, the scripting that I see from TF from Click Funnels from the clients on demand from high end client from, there’s so many programs that have used this kind of thing in the past, and I don’t really keep up with it anymore. But hopefully they don’t anymore. But there’s so many of these things where it’s a hold on to the price, you keep it tight until the end, you build value, you build value, you twist the knife you do whatever metaphor you use, and then yes, sock it to him at the end is $1,000. And then you shut up and the first person to talk loses. What is that? What is that? We’re not here to play poker with people. We’re not here to box with people, we’re not getting in the ring with them. If you want someone to be confused and paralyzed, keep them in the dark about what happens next. It’s the perfect way to create confusion and prayer and paralysis. And that’s why poker players keep the other players in the dark. It’s why a boxer or an MMA fighter tries not to telegraph their moves is because they want their opponent to be confused and paralyzed and indecisive. It’s perfect. But when we’re collaborating, when we want someone to make a healthy adult decision that is good for their own growth. And that is a good foundation for a relationship. We need to telegraph it is the exact opposite of what most people are taught to do. And it creates a remarkable difference in the pressure in the call itself, the buyer’s remorse immediately afterwards. And then the refund and chargeback rate over time. It’s a huge difference all along.

Heather Pearce Campbell  17:49

I love. I mean, I love how you spell that out and how you so clearly illustrated what unfortunately, I think so many people listening can relate to as I could do, right? So, so much the norm Yeah, so much the norm. And yet, I think even when I won’t say everybody, but even when certain people are doing it, I agree so much with what you said about like, they just don’t know better writer, they’re being told by somebody that they perceive as an expert. Here’s how you do it. Right. The other point that you made that I really love is about removing condescension and hyper authority frames. It’s yeah, and it’s something that is like sitting here as an expert, right? I have to be like, Oh, reflect on times because I get upset more often than I like to admit about how frequently people take each other’s online content, take each other’s IP, right? I live in the IP world. I keep thinking one day, everybody on the internet is going to wake up and have personal ethics, right? And I have to remind myself, this piece that you said about some of them, it really truly does come from a place of not knowing it’s not it’s not all intentional, bad behavior. And I know this to be true because I’ve done a whole bunch of work of like issuing you know, communications that say please take that down or whatever and a certain percentage, not all but a certain percentage of the good guys have said, Oh, you’re right. I didn’t even realize…

Jeremy Pope  19:43

It wakes them up.

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:44

Yes. I didn’t even realize that was a problem. Let me pay you for this work. Let me like they care about making it right. And then I have to it really softens me when I see that like oh, they read like I just assumed that He would know that that was not the right thing to do. But by showing their willingness to take responsibility and immediately go, oh, yeah, you’re right. I didn’t think about those legal terms actually belonging to somebody, like one of my clients who paid for them, right? Yeah, but it is a really important point that we go farther, if we can soften if we can do these things without condescension without this authority frame that is so often taught, and yeah, and have more of like, I love your word of collaboration, even in the sales process, right?

Jeremy Pope  20:41

There are a lot of sales processes that are the bro marketer. It’s a very patronizing kind of process. patronizing means when somebody talks down to you, Heather. One of my favorite jokes.

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:02

So funny. And for people that are not seeing the video, you really need to pop over to YouTube and watch the video for that.

Jeremy Pope  21:13

So, okay, mansplaining moment over, right. But when, when we have a patronizing process, a lot of times our intentions can’t shine through. So for, can I give a couple of examples? Okay, I have set up a lot of Facebook ad to register for an auto webinar, or podcast VSL, kind of thing of VSL. And then book a strategy call at the end of that, get some reminders, apply for the strategy called like, fill out a questionnaire, and then get on the strategy call about more of that kind of funnel overall, and pretty much anything else? Maybe half. And so I’ve seen many, many, many application questions that are just ripped from somebody else’s program with no thought behind it. So there are a lot of these, a lot of these coaches that are building their first funnel, or their first successful funnel or something along those lines. They have been through a coaching program that is in the biz op space, the make money online space or bizarro space. That’s where a lot of coaching happens. And that’s okay. But the biz ops space? There are, it’s designed to speak to newer people in the business. Yes. And so there is some level of parental attitude, kind of a look, step by step, this, this, this, this, and this. It’s designed to hold people highly accountable, even when it works. Well. It’s designed to hold people highly accountable. And when it doesn’t work, well, that just kind of leads you to your own devices, right. So a lot of a lot of the sales processes are set up around a really big idea around accountability. Like now we’re, I’ve committed to showing up for you will you commit to showing up for your call things like this? Yes. And that can be appropriate in the biz op space, sometimes it depends on your audience, you have to listen to your audience. But when you take that kind of thing from your biz op coach, and move it into the legal world, for instance, or you’re dealing with doctors, retirement funds, or you’re dealing with just other types of business problems entirely, it’s very rare that your prospects in that realm are going to put up with the same kind of language it you just can’t talk to people like children.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:07

Yeah. And it’s why what you said rings, so true about that particular space. And I love that you’ve just called it the biz op space, because I haven’t thought of it in that way. And that’s exactly what it is. And the fact that they’re not speaking to true experts. Right?

Jeremy Pope  24:26

Right. Right. A lot of times their avatar is someone who is trying to become an expert, and sometimes even trying to shortcut that process of becoming an expert or, or acting like an expert. And so they’ve learned to tune their marketing to that person. So even if you are an expert, and you’ve been through that funnel, if that’s what you’ve been acclimated to, you think that’s normal. And it’s not, it’s not, it’s only normal in the biz op space. So that’s a really easy example.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:56

Yeah, but I love it because it’s so enjoyable to see for me in the entrepreneurial space. And I just love business, I could talk business all day. It’s just so much fun.

Jeremy Pope  25:08

It’s so boring. I can’t do parties, I just can’t…

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:14

Do parties. 

Jeremy Pope  25:16

Too boring I nerd out on business. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:18

Right, I’m there with you, we’d be over in the corner chatting business, right? So, but when you see somebody totally defying all of the like, you have to do it this way. And you have to build it in this order. And you know what I mean? Because true experts understand some of what you’ve already said, which is that, you know, it needs to fit for them. It needs to fit their clients. It needs to be a collaboration, a conversation, like none of this overarching framework or structure that gets placed on so many people trying to build a business.

Jeremy Pope  25:59

Yeah. A good friend of mine, Jason Canagan, who’s an ops consultant, and all kinds of cool stuff. But he talks about the one right way syndrome. Yeah, and how everybody wants the one answer that will solve it. And it’s a big flag for a newbie in this area. If somebody’s looking for the one right way. You know, they don’t have much experience in that thing they’re asking about, and it’s okay. But if you’re dealing with experts, you’re gonna have to open things up a little bit more, you’re gonna have to, like display a little more of the toolbox. Without overwhelming people with technical jargon, of course.

Heather Pearce Campbell  26:43

Totally, totally. So moving us back, I want to get back to the sales conversation, right? And how we do it better. And I love one of the things that I noticed in your information is, if you’re like most salespeople, you don’t know how to actually properly pay attention to a prospect, right? And I think as a hypnotist, you probably have certain thoughts about this and how we get it wrong. Do you mind sharing?

Jeremy Pope  27:13

I do not. It would be unlucky if I did mind sharing covered on the podcast. So I am putting together a game called the Million Dollar Ear. And it’s around this exact idea. We’re going to be playing the game in the sales call overhaul group. The first two weeks of every month pretty much so people can come in and join and play the game. But the million dollar ears about how to listen. And I learned how to sell selling hypnosis packages, but not because I was hypnotizing people, not anymore that any salesperson does. You know, if hypnosis works that way, I wouldn’t ever tell anyone I was a hypnotist. That would be my little secret, you know?

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:02


Jeremy Pope  28:03

So having the ability to listen properly, is what sales is about to meet personally. And not everybody does that. And there are a lot of different ways to sell. But this way works for me, I spend it’s a pretty average amount of time listening, as most good salespeople do. I’ll spend about 55 to 60% of my time listening. I’m pretty consistent with enterprise sales, with consumer sales, with any kind of consultative selling, where you’re in the high ticket realm, high ticket for consumer being to me more than a third of what this person would pay for a car. Right? That’s high ticket for that audience is how I define it. Yep. So enough to be a significant decision for this person. So when we learned how to listen, there are a few things that are very simple to start noticing. One is, and this is a straight NLP here. Oh, and we didn’t really talk about that. But we can.

Jeremy Pope  28:07

Let’s definitely touch on NLP because this is a topic that I feel is really important. People know where it fits, because you can have people that really push and want to do it and then others that are turned off by it that are worried like is this manipulative? Does this feel you know what I mean? Is it secretly like hypnotism? I don’t want to do that. So let’s definitely touch on that.

Jeremy Pope  29:45

Okay, here’s how you do it, right? Because NLP is a bag of tricks. It’s a bag of tools. That’s all it is. It’s a few dozen techniques that are commonly taught. And you can use them ethically and you can use them unethically, you can use them ethically from stage, you can use them unethically from stage, things like that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  30:06

I love that you just said that you can use them ethically, you can use them unethically.

Jeremy Pope  30:12

I found that the people who try and use NLP as a mental framework or as a philosophy or like the overarching psychology of what they’re doing, often get it wrong. Because it is not an ethical framework, it is a hammer, and a few wrenches, and some screwdrivers and things like that. And so, yeah, you can use it, I mean, anything powerful, you can use it wrong, and you can use it right, you can use it well, and you can use it poorly. Most of the time, it gets used poorly and wrong. There’s some very simple things that you can do to use NLP well. And it’s. So let’s talk about VAK – visual, auditory, kinesthetic. When you hear what someone is doing in their own heads, why would you ever try and get them to do something different? Just to please you, just to satisfy you, just so that you could be comfortable on your end of the Zoom chat. If you’ve got someone that speaks broken English in front of you, and you happen to speak fluent Spanish, I’m jealous, but be why would you ever force them to speak English, when you’re not going to get the full community, that full meeting of the minds? They’re the consensus at the item there? When you have a language where, you know, they speak their language perfectly? And they always do. Everybody always speaks their own internal language perfectly. And they don’t speak your internal language at all. Not Not unless they just happen to have the exact same way of building their brain that you happen to have over your many years. So when you have the ability to speak their language with them do so this is the kindest thing that you can do with people. So Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic, is one very simple thing you can pay attention to. Are they talking about clarity? Are they talking about seeing the 30,000 foot view the bird’s eye view? Are they talking about height and depth? Are they talking about things like that? If so, I’m not going to talk about feeling stuck. Or I’m not going to talk about does that resonate with you? It’s literally that simple. When they’re using sound D kind of words. And they’re it’s kind of hard to hear an interview format, because inner interview, speaking structures kind of lend themselves to this, this more auditory format. But when someone is going into auditory, you can tell they like to hear themselves talk. They’re thinking by talking. And so they often have kind of a musicality to their voice, a rhythm to their speaking.

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:21

Right. The syncopation or yes.

Jeremy Pope  33:24

They tend to speak in long sentences and kind of flowing and you can hear them kind of developing that idea as they talk because of the talking. And then they’ll also use words like bells and resonance and does that sound right? And things like that. And then the kinesthetic people? Well, let me let me go back to the visual people. First, they’ll use the visual metaphors, for sure. And they’ll often tend to speak very quickly and jump around a lot. They can jump big gaps, because they can see from the airplane they can see 50,000 feet or whatever, right, so they can make that jump in one shot. And…

Heather Pearce Campbell  34:04

Like they just need to fill in little sections of the map, they already see it. They’re gonna go here and ask you this targeted question or that go here and say this? Yeah.

Jeremy Pope  34:13

So they jump around more, they feel a little more ADHD to some visual, visual people do. And then the audio, the auditory people. I’ve just described them and then the kinesthetic people. They’ll use words like feeling solid or feeling light. They’ll talk about being blocked, actually being blocked is a good one that could be visual, or it could be kinesthetic. Either way. You have to dig into that metaphor a little bit more. What does it mean when you’re blocked? To tell you, Well, I just have this roadblock up in front of me. So that’s a visual thing. It’s a way in front of you. They might even make the motions like up in front of them. Or they’ll say Well, I just can’t move. Okay, that’s a kinesthetic block right there. Yeah, that’s uh, like if they’re feeling blocked, yeah, if it’s right up close to them, they’re feeling it. So you can hear these things so easily if you just listen. And then the kinesthetic people, they also tend to wait a bit before speaking, they will, they think more slowly, not not more stupidly, just more slowly there, they come across as more considered a lot of times. And it’s very easy for a visual person like me to interrupt a kinesthetic person. So I toward the beginning of a sales call, I tend to wait. And like, see how long it takes someone to finish. And if they start talking again, after I think they’ve finished, and then if they, if they don’t, then I’ll, I’ll just kind of match their pace. But that’s how you can tell the VAK stuff. People use these different things on different topics. So it’s not I am a visual person, I am an auditory, and kinesthetic. It’s, when I’m talking about this thing, I get really visual, when I’m talking about that thing, I get really auditory, etc. So that’s one thing I love to pay attention to. But when people are telling you their internal metaphors, they’re giving you the handles on their brain. Right? They’re asking you for help. So when someone says I feel stuck, I’ll say, Well, tell me about that. What’s What do you mean, you feel stuck? And they’ll describe it in more terms of metaphor, but I’m just in this whole, you know, and I just can’t climb out of the hole. It is as simple as saying something along the lines of, okay, well, if you have the ladder you wanted, what would be the rungs of that ladder? Was that complicated? What was that? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:01

Oh it’s like, wait, what you’re pointing out the fascinating part about this. And I so love that you, first of all, before you started said that this can be done ethically, but it does really sound like it is just about being mindful and paying attention in ways that we don’t normally do. Because we’re just moving too fast or too busy, or our brains are scattered, but like really being present?

Jeremy Pope  37:28

Because we don’t know to listen for it. Right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:31

Yeah. Right. But it’s like, you know, what you’re saying overlap so much. So for example, there was a framework, I don’t know if you know who Jane Powers is, she was on this podcast a while ago. But she teaches. And it’s more like a kind of a personality type of description, but it influences the way they speak the way they show up. So you know, whether you’re talking to like an expert type, or an optimizer or somebody who’s really organized and need things to be step by step by step, or relator, where they just need a lot of hand holding, they know that they need to know that they’re going to be taken care of on the inside through the process, right, versus a catalyst that’s like, look, I already know what I need to know. Like, let’s just get busy. Right, let’s just get started. And all of this, you can tell from their language. 

Jeremy Pope  38:25

Right. Right. I love personality assessments. And I’m not familiar with that one. But it sounds like a good one. I might really enjoy meeting Jane.

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:39

Totally. But it is, you know, when I was learning about it, I remember having that same thought that I asked you about like, oh, is this a way to manipulate? And then I’m like, oh, no, it’s just another lens that you layer over that helps you understand this person in a way that you can speak their language. Right, right. Like with your ladder analogy, you can meet them where they are.

Jeremy Pope  39:04

Yeah. And you can, you can make them feel very heard, by speaking their language instead of insisting that they try and speak yours without even know. Like, it’s two people that most of the time you don’t know you’re speaking different languages. You’re just trying to muddle through with sign language or something. So when you’re aware, there are two different mental languages going on. Let’s join them in their world. Let’s speak their language, let’s migrate to their country for a little while here. And or visit their country, I guess would be more accurate. But it’s the same. It’s the same kind of thing. Yes, you can use it to manipulate people. But that’s more about the content of like, Are you helping someone make a healthy adult decision that will where you believe it will grow them? Or are you pressuring them into something Here’s a very easy way to tell if you’re being ethical. And it’s not foolproof. But there’s one flag that is very powerful. A lot of people use sales scripting, or a scripted process in some way or another.

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:16

And one of the questions I was going to ask you is, does that get people in trouble? Right?

Jeremy Pope  40:22

Oh, that’s a big topic. I’m sure it is. A lot of times, yes. Let’s get into that in a minute if we have time.  

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:30

Totally. I want to respect your time, but I’m glad you brought up scripting. Cool.

Jeremy Pope  40:35

I believe that if you’re using a script, you should get so good at it, that you can ignore it and pay attention to the person in front of you. So you have to master it and move on. That’s my overall take on that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:47

Well, I love it. And I think that for anybody who has ever been a speaker, they can relate exactly to what you’re saying, like, you have the framework, you know, the content, you know, the mile markers. And for any given audience, you can deliver that in a different way at a different pace. You need to mean be responsive to the interactions and the questions of the audience. I think it’s the same approach. I love that,

Jeremy Pope  41:13

To finish up the last point, if I’m going to visit their country to be with them. Yes, there’s a potential for manipulation there. But I don’t think are more powerful tools. That question: What’s the phrase? You’ll never know if you’re good. Unless you’re powerful, something along those lines? Harmless is not the same thing as good. No harmless could just be ineffectual as well. And so there’s, there’s a very easy way to tell if you’re being ethical in your sales are one very easy tell. Would you show your script on screen on zoom as you use it? If you would be…

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:03

That’s a good question. 

Jeremy Pope  42:05


Heather Pearce Campbell  42:05

That’s such a good question.

Jeremy Pope  42:08

If you’d be scared to show them your script, as you use it with them slash on them, then you’ve got a bad script, you’ve got a very possibly unethical script. And it’s time to rework that script.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:23

That’ll underscore. Yeah. So good.

Jeremy Pope  42:28

Collaboration is about exposure, transparency, vulnerability, authenticity, building a relationship together. And instead of butting heads and like aiming your words at each other, you’re pointed in the same direction, you’re pulling the load of the problem, you’re problem solving together with collaborative sales. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:49

Well, and I love that you mentioned transparency in that process, because I do think in sales in particular, people think like, oh, they have to contain or somehow keep all this information on one side of the fence. Right. But that transparency piece, like how, how significantly more powerfully, do we show up? Even if, and this is where, you know, I think you have to really be originating from the right place in any conversation, like, you’re not there to make a sale. You’re there to collaborate and find out, should you be working together, right, which is why I’m really quick. The second that I spot like, Oh, I’m not the expert for this, I don’t actually solve this particular problem, I will immediately let somebody know, you don’t know, it’s not like I need to be the expert in all things related to online business or whatever, right?

Jeremy Pope  43:45

People are closing at 14 and a half percent. And this has held steady for five years in the online space. In a funnel situation. The average salesperson, just decent, good salesperson, on a decent funnel, they’re going to close at 14 and a half percent. I’ve seen so much data around that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:05


Jeremy Pope  44:06

But if you’ve got, I’m trying so hard to find that train of thought again. If you’ve got Oh, no, I think it’s gone. Right. But the transparent triple clothes that I talked about, is almost all asking questions. And it’s almost all asking questions deeply. And doing things in a way that will give you access to healthy decisions together. Here’s what it was. I remember what it was now. Yeah. If you Wow, nope. It’s gone again. Oh, my goodness. Well, at least I have the diagnosis for ADHD.

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:00

But this is the perfect invitation for people to follow up with you. Right? Because we are getting to the end of our time together. I love that we are ending on this topic of transparency and what you just said about asking questions deeply. To see, right. It’s I don’t know if people train all that well on how to do that particular.

Jeremy Pope  45:26

It’s a missed skill.

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:28

Yes. Yes. So I think that is

Jeremy Pope  45:33

Here, here it is. Yes, you call your call a clarity call, and more than half of your people are leaving that call without clarity, you’re lying to them. That’s an easy game to play right there with ethics in sales. If you call your call a breakthrough, call a clarity call..

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:53

How many people do this?

Jeremy Pope  45:56

Yeah, they don’t come away with actual clarity. You’re doing it wrong. Easy tell right there. So if… 

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:04

Well, and I will layer on what immediately comes to mind when you say that are people that are like containing all the secret sauce back here in it. I mean, like you have to enroll first before I’m really going to help you with that. And it’s like, there’s so much that we can do regardless of the business and saying, here’s the map, here’s how we work. Here’s the order. Here’s the you know, just like putting it out there. So it’s not…

Jeremy Pope  46:31

Overwhelming people with jargon, it’s overwhelming people with technical overload, that’s never going to sell the world of calculation is not the world of action. But if your people are coming away with clear next steps, and they feel like they can make a healthy decision around that, whether it’s with you or not. Good job, folks. Good job.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:51

Awesome. Whether it’s with you or not, I love that. So true. And it’s really important for us in our businesses to recognize thee or not recognize, you know, and free up our time for the ones that are absolutely the yeses. So, so much good stuff, Jeremy, for folks that are thinking like, Okay, I need to check this out. I want to find out what Jeremy does. You know how you serve your clients. Where do you send people? Where do you like to connect with folks online?

Jeremy Pope  47:25

The Facebook group is the main place. So go to salescalloverhaul.com/join. Okay, that will get you into the Facebook group. You can play the Million Dollar Ear and learn how to listen, you can play it every month if you want to play it every month. And you can submit your own recorded sales calls to when we do not play it on the air. We anonymize it, we’d redact it, we transcribe it. And then I reenact the trouble spots using silly voices.

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:54

Guys, first of all, the like that was the exclamation mark to this conversation. That particular piece so much my sister who’s in sales, we’ve joked because I’ll get on the phone with her almost daily like Ash, how’s your day going? And a couple of times, she’s been like, I was not the salesperson that I meant to be. I just talked too much on a call, you know, like she knows when she’s done it. And let’s be clear, she’s a great salesperson. But I love that your game is called the Million Dollar Ear.

Jeremy Pope  48:27

It’s about the important part. Perfect. Yes. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:30

Well, Jeremy, we will share your link to your Facebook group. Anything else you want us to share at the show notes page. So folks pop on over and visit us at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Jeremy, what final takeaway would you like to leave people with today?

Jeremy Pope  48:47

Oh, goodness, I think that’s the one listening is selling listening in healthy ways, will sell so much better than you think it will.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:57

I so appreciate you I appreciate your approach to this conversation. I think there’s a lot of ways that people still step in potholes in this particular area of their business. And we need people like you that are educating the marketplace in the right ways. So thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it so much.

Jeremy Pope  49:17

Thank you so much for having me. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:19

Well, I hope we get to connect again.

Jeremy Pope  49:22

That sounds good to me.

GGGB Intro  49:25

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.