With Joe Nicassio, Author, Speaker and Marketing Coach who shares his encyclopedic marketing knowledge in this lively and interesting conversation on entrepreneurship and business. He is on a mission to turn employees into entrepreneurs so they can be self-reliant and create success on their own terms.

Joe has been working with entrepreneurs since 1999 to build start-ups and small businesses that are based on good business fundamentals, and that help people love what they do and get paid well to do what they love. Joe shares numerous golden nuggets and memorable truth-bombs pertinent to the entrepreneurial path and business building journey. We discuss the purpose of a business, the importance of relationships, why we don’t get paid what we are worth, and what it takes to create a strong foundation for your business.

Joe also shares his views on the difference between commitment and integrity, dives into the concept that business is risky (and what he says might surprise you), and explains the “speed of trust”, an important concept in modern business. Tune in to also learn why the business education marketplace fails so many entrepreneurs, and to hear Joe’s simple tips on how to avoid closing down a sale conversation before it starts.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • “Do what you love for yourself and others.” 
  • The big challenge for most people is that they are in a career by default and not by design. 
  • Why working for someone else is giving away your power. 
  • Less than 10 percent of people become entrepreneurs. 

Check out these highlights:

3:40 The point where Joe’s entrepreneur journey starts.

4:54 “No matter how hard I worked, I could never get ahead as an employee.”

8:27 “Never again will I put myself in a situation where someone else controls my career.”

8:55 Why don’t people become entrepreneurs?

11:43 “As entrepreneurs we have the opportunity to create more security for ourselves than anywhere else.” 

14:50 Why we need to show up as a solution provider as entrepreneurs. 

15:30 “What if we had a whole world full of people doing what they love, what they are here to do.” 

19:00 How people get conditioned to show up for a paycheck and not build relationships. 

22:00 What are the roadblocks for entrepreneurs.

25:30 The biggest reason people don’t make a million dollars. 

26:00 “You don’t get paid what you are worth, you get paid what you negotiate.” 

26:30 Why is the discussion on value so hard for entrepreneurs. 

27:15 Why we need to be the trusted advisor and not the “sales” person. 

30:00 The difference between commitment and integrity in business. 

33:10 The idea of risk and failure. 

34:00 Who would you be without the thoughts of risk and failure as an entrepreneur?

38:00 Low-tech effective is better than high-tech effective. 

41:20 “Most people kill the sale in the first 60 seconds.”

45:00 “Mastery is the opposite of the numbers game.”

48:20 Why people are afraid to actually start a business. 

52:00 “Give with wisdom.” 

52:30 How to tell if someone is going to be a red flag client.

How to get in touch with Joe:

On social media:



Grab an hour of Joe’s time with his Rapid Business Growth Coaching Session. A $500 value! He’ll help you get a crystal clear vision for your ultimate business success and uncover hidden challenges that may be sabotaging your sales and marketing. Get it here:   http://schedule.employeeescapeplan.com

Contrary to popular belief, succeeding in business is not risky or accidental.

It’s about doing something you love, sharing that love through effective marketing, and receiving Love in the form of cash from grateful clients. 

When you align your passions with proven principles, success is inevitable.

Since 1999, Joe Nicassio has been working with startup entrepreneurs and seasoned business owners to do just that.

If you want to learn some tactics you can put to work in your business today, pay attention to Joe Nicassio, he is an advisor you can trust.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business.

Joe Nicassio  00:04

You know, I wake up every day, I love what I do. I’m a massive contribution to the people I serve. And oh, wow, by the way, they even pay me to do this. That’s what it’s all about. And when you set your intention to do what you love, share the love so that you can receive the love and organize and intentionally create that. You now become a business, entrepreneur, alchemist. And see the big challenge for most people is they are in careers by default, instead of being in a career by design, and that’s the work that I love doing is helping people figure out what is your magic? What are your skills? What are your passions? And how can we organize that so that you can wake up every day, making this kind of contribution and getting paid for it and loving what you do? Because, like I said, if you’re not having fun, you’re really doing something wrong.

GGGB Intro  00:55

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit, and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:28

Hello, there I am Heather Pearce Campbell, the Legal Website Warrior. I’m an attorney and legal coach based in Seattle, Washington. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business. I’m so excited to share with you my new friend Joe Nicasio. And like two seconds ago, I learned that his last name means victory house. So I just want to kick that off, because I feel like you’re going to be in very good hands today. I love Joe’s bio, and I asked people you know, to come on the show and ask them for a short bio. Most people have it all about themselves, even even though they’re accustomed to being on podcasts and being on shows. And what I love about Joe’s bio, is you’re gonna hear at first about how it’s about you, right. Contrary to popular belief, succeeding in business is not risky or accidental. It’s about doing something you love sharing that love through effective marketing, and receiving love in the form of cash from grateful clients. I love that from grateful clients. When you align your passions with proven principles. Success is inevitable. Since 1999, Joe Nicassio has been working with startup entrepreneurs and seasoned business owners to do just that. He has worked with over 2000 people from over 300 different industries. If you want to learn some tactics you can put to work in your business today. Pay attention to Joe. He’s an advisor you can trust. So Joe and I were just talking and he’s also an engineer. That’s his background. And he’s the author of resurrecting America’s entrepreneurial spirit. Welcome, Joe. I’m so happy to have you here.

Joe Nicassio  03:16

Thanks for having me. It’s exciting. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:18

Yeah, so fun. So I always like to ask people about their own entrepreneurial path. How did you get started? What was the point where you decided entrepreneurship was your path?

Joe Nicassio  03:33

Well, you know, I took four years of high school electronics, and when I was a junior, a man came into my electronics teacher and said, Who’s your best student, and he hired me in a place called independent electronics. I had a job. But I was working for a man who was in a, he was an entrepreneur, and he had our shirt said, you know, I’m independent, you know, and just having that spirit of independence. Now, I went on to have other jobs I’ve my journey has been, I used to work for Sannio electric repairing consumer electronics, every kind of consumer electronics, I’ve been a TV repairman, I go back to the days of vacuum tubes. I used to have a television antenna installation service that I joint venture with somebody way back in the day, I had a job installing and inspecting electrical equipment in surgery rooms, to make sure that they were safe so that when a doctor was performing surgery that the patient didn’t get electrocuted while they were using the instrumentation, their safety devices for that that’s in the code. I used to work as a field engineer for Eastman Kodak and I’ve had many, many jobs I’ve you know, and I found that I no matter how hard I work, I could never get ahead as an employee. And I had one incident that was really I think it was the snapping point that made me decide to never work for somebody again. Want to hear that quick story. Yeah. So I was working at Sun computers, the retail store, back in the day when we were selling Apple Macintosh computers in retail stores before they had Apple stores. And I was a kick ass salesperson, I sold a lot of product. My customers loved me, I always gave out my personal page or number if you ever have a problem, you know, I was really good at and I had a lot of people that loved it. And our manager went on vacation to Colorado on a ski trip. And while she was there, I was working and a man guiding Gary was running the store. He wasn’t even a full manager. But that day at two o’clock in the afternoon, I got a call. You know, I was in Torrance, California got a call. My dad was in the hospital at Loma Linda University had a heart attack. And I asked Gary, can I go see my dad at the house? He’s like, Joe, we’re short handed, you got to work out your shift till seven. So, you know, I, you know I did. And at seven I asked Gary’s it. Okay. That’s the first disappointment right? Then at seven. I asked Gary, is it okay, if I see my dad, it was quitting time, you know? And he said, Sure. Go. So I drove out that was a Friday came back on Monday, the manager was back in the office. And she goes, Joe, where were you on Friday, and I said, my dad had a heart attack. And I went to go see him itself. And I’m like, it was a weird interrogation. I’m like, Why do you ask? And she said, because after you left, some guys came into the store with weapons and ski masks, and they stole all the computers and lock Gary in the warehouse. And I was like, Oh, my God, that’s terrible. You know, of course, I had nothing at all to do with it. So about a month later, you know, I just continued working. And a month later, they came in and they said, Joe, we need to terminate your employment. I’m like, why? And they said, because remember that burglary? I’m like, yeah, and nothing to do it was they said, well, the insurance company won’t pay the check, unless you fix the problem of why it happened. And apparently, there was a policy that two people had to be in the store at lockup. And even though I had permission to leave, I was supposed to stay there. And so they terminated me, and I went to an employment attorney and see what kind of rights I had. And I had no rights, because in California, you’re employed at will, at cause, you know, they, they can, they can hire you for any reason, they could fire you for any reason. And the only people that they can’t fire somebody that has an employment employment contract, like, you know, LeBron James, you know, they have contracts, but nine out of 10, people don’t have an employment contract. And I thought, how terrible Is it for me to work hard, get great results, love my job, have customers love me, and they still terminate me. Because the insurance company wouldn’t, you know, I had nothing to do with them. But that was the thing that allowed them to collect money for the insurance payment was my soul.

Joe Nicassio  07:54

They sold out my soul for a check. And I wrote letters to ask for my job back, I didn’t do it. But you know, I really got angry, I’m like, I am never ever going to allow somebody have that control over my life again. And I actually came up with a phrase that, you know, a godly attribute is self reliance. And what we’ve done is created a culture of employer reliance. And I made a commitment never, ever, ever again, will I put myself in a position situation where someone else controls my career, and can throw me in the trash because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed. So that was a decision point. There’s a lot of other things my journey, you know, God has put me on a strange obstacle course, to shape me, because this is a calling from God, I believe the work I do.

Heather Pearce Campbell  08:47

Well, and you raise a really interesting point, because I think so first of all, statistically speaking, I think somewhere, you know, less than 10% of people become entrepreneurs, or essentially create their own livelihood, right? 

Joe Nicassio  09:03

Well, that’s historically I’m the one that’s gonna change that. Okay. In, I wrote a book about this resurrecting America’s entrepreneurial spirit, because most people are. So there’s, there’s this thing called the entrepreneur paradox. On the one hand, everybody wants to have a business. But on the other hand, everybody’s scared shitless. Right. Okay, there’s a tremendous amount of fear. And so we don’t let you know, children are born as geniuses and then conditioned into mediocrity. And children don’t lack capacity. They lack mentors. And the problem is our education doesn’t teach entrepreneurship effectively. We have university programs, and people still go out and fail. But we also can see many people go out and they succeed over and over and over again. And so, yeah, in our country, it’s really interesting when I wrote my book in America We programmed children to go to school, get a good education and be somebody else’s servant. So other countries and other countries, they teach their kids go to America, it’s the land of opportunity, you can start your own company and get rich. Okay? And it’s amazing how many foreigners come here. And I believe that people succeed or people fail as entrepreneurs, because they were never, they were always discouraged from doing it. They were encouraged to go to school, get a good education and be somebody else’s be. I mean…

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:36

Well, you are accurate, that our education system is really designed to create employees, it’s designed to create people who follow rules and work inside of somebody else’s system, right. I think it was designed during the Industrial Revolution, and you had to, you had people into jobs, and you had to create those, you know, people from a young age, and so they got shaped in our education.

Joe Nicassio  11:03

If you were working for Ford Motor Company, as a assembly line worker, you had a normal job, but if you had extra education, you could be promoted into management. Even one of the most coveted degrees we have now is the Masters of Business Administration, which means they train you to administer somebody else’s business. They don’t teach you to be a master of business creation, or master of effective business creation. But that’s my side. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  11:32

Well, and I just, I love your approach. And I share the same perspective that as entrepreneurs, we actually have the opportunity to create more security for ourselves than we would have anywhere else. And people often get that wrong. They think, oh, a job is the security working for somebody else is the security.

Joe Nicassio  11:55

No, that’s giving away your power. Check out, check this out, we’re all self employed. If you have a business and you have 100 customers, you lose when you’re self employed with 99 customers, if you have a job, you’re self employed with one customer, that doesn’t necessarily even have a way of maximizing your upside. And if you’re unemployed, you are self employed with no customers. So we’re all self employed. And we need to really take ownership that you know, a lot of people now they’ve been dislodged, they don’t have work as a COVID-19. And all that. And what I do is teach, I teach you to find employment, through self employment. At some point, you need to look in the mirror and say, you know, I have talents, I have skills, I have abilities. We all have check this out. We spend money on stuff, you spend money on stuff. And there’s a common thread and all of our spending, we spend money on things that improve our conditions. Why do you eat at the nice restaurant versus cooking at home? Because it’s nice, it improves my lifestyle. Sometimes we like to cook at home. Why do we do that? Because it’s improves our life? Why do we get our brakes fixed on our car? Because life is better with functional brakes than dysfunctional brakes. And so that’s we spend money on that stuff. And if we want to receive money, the most important thing is how are we organizing ourselves, to give to others to make other people’s lives better? When people say wow, my life is better because I hired Heather. You know, she’ll help me get my legal stuff together, I’ll be protected, she can optimize maximize my profits, make sure I’m paying the minimum taxes. The only reason they’re going to spend money with Heather’s because life is better with Heather versus not with Heather. And the same thing with me. And so that’s where people that’s where I teach people to have confidence that they can start their own business, it starts what you what’s your confidence in your ability to make somebody else’s life better. I mean, even if all you know how to do is clean homes, you can make people’s lives better as a home cleaner. Or if you’re if you know how to push a lawn more you can make. Now there’s that may not be the highest contribution you have. Because there’s two ways we pay people money, hands and brains. And so when we pay small money for hands, we pay bigger money for brains. And so we can organize ourselves in better ways. But anybody, if you have the ability to make somebody’s life better. Then Then here here’s I had coffee mugs just made up it says I will solve your problems, and you will pay me gratefully and generously. And that’s what we need to own as entrepreneurs showing up as a problem solver as a solution provider in exchange for you know, you know there’s a there’s a cost to doing business with me and there’s a cost to not doing business with me and you don’t have to buy from me and you get them the cost is you get to stay stuck where you are, or you can do business with me and I can give you the improvements that I uniquely offer. Everybody has the ability to be an entrepreneur. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  15:11

Well, I love that. And I think there was a video and I can’t remember the man’s voice behind it. But it was really profound when I saw it, it was floating around the internet a few years ago that talks about what if we had a whole group or world full of people doing what they love doing what they’re here to do, and not, that’s what it’s all about going to a job. And that really is what is behind my whole mission as an attorney who has basically I’ve created a whole second business as a way to meet the needs of entrepreneurs whose legal needs are not being met by the traditional legal industry.

Joe Nicassio  15:53

And I agree, if you’re not having fun, you’re doing something wrong. You know, if you’re not enjoying what you do my whole thing, so I invented this thing, which is the intention. Like before you start a business, the number one thing you want to do is set your intention, and I set three intentions for people. Number one is do what you love for yourself and your clients. You can’t just do what you love for yourself, because everything you want in life is controlled by someone else. If you want a piece of real estate, it’s controlled by the owner, if you want a car, it’s controlled, if you want love, it’s controlled by you know, the, the object of your desires. Okay. And so every and if you want cash, it’s controlled by other people. So everything you want in life is controlled by others. So do what you love for yourself. And, and, you know, break that into choosing your business wisely. And building a brand that makes sense and having an offer you love to offer. And people love to buy, and you love to provide that service work. The second piece is share the love, share the love through good storytelling, share the love, through your promotions and your marketing and share the love after people raise their hand, continue to share the love because we need to do lead generation, but we also need to do lead nurturing. And so we need to continue to share the love when people raise their hand. And we need to share the love through our service and through effective marketing. And then the third part is receiving the love receiving the love and form of gratitude and cash. The first way love shows up is people contact you they schedule appointments with you, they raise their hand, they they say I’m interested. And then you know, you start receiving the love when you have conversations that turn into cash. And then there is a love associated with, you know, now that you’ve been paid and you’re doing the work. There is a fulfillment that you receive, knowing that I’m getting paid. You know, I wake up every day, I love what I do. I’m a massive contribution to the people I serve. And oh wow, by the way, they even pay me to do this. That’s what it’s all about. And when you set your intention to do what you love, share the love. So you can receive the love and organize and intentionally create that you now become a business entrepreneur outcome. And see the big challenge for most people is they are in careers by default, instead of being in a career by design. And that’s the work that I love dealing and helping people figure out what is your magic? What are your skills? What are your passions? And how can we organize that so that you can wake up every day? Making this kind of contribution and getting paid for it and loving what you do. Because like I said, if you’re not having fun, you’re really doing something.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:35

Yes. And what I love even about the language you’re using is to me at least it really speaks to the importance of and and really the fact that doing business is relationship relational, right? It’s relationship driven and base, which is the only way that you get to the point of really experiencing love associated with your work and appreciation and gratitude from people that will happily pay you. And I think a lot of folks get so conditioned maybe through the marketplace or through working at larger companies or whatever. But yeah, it’s for a paycheck not to make people’s lives better.

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:15

That’s right, transactional and making that shift from transactions to relationship. Yes is huge.

Joe Nicassio  19:24

Yeah, my mentor, Jay Abraham, he said, the most selfish thing you can do is be selfless. You know, the more you pour out the love to others, I have a story of a girl that I knew in a class and she was an actress, and she was really good. And she did martial arts and she was pretty and she had good demo reels and a website and all that. And she wasn’t getting a lot of acting gigs. And so during this class, we invented a new possibility she invented a new possibility for herself. A lot of people when they go on an audition, they go because they like the their craft, but there’s part of them that I need this page. to pay my rent, and the new possibility she invented for herself was to show up as a massive contribution to the audition, a massive contributions of the director and producer and a massive contribution to the success of the project. During that 10 weeks I was with her. She got a TV commercial, another TV commercial, a Netflix gig and a TV commercial. Because she didn’t show up on auditions to get a job. She got show up on auditions to give in the biggest way she could possibly show us. It’s a game changer.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:35

Now I love that well. And in in current times, where people are inundated with information inundated with marketing messages inundated it’s too much. And even like, I look at one platform like LinkedIn, which is a place where I really enjoy connecting, I still see every day, so many people doing it wrong, right? They connect, they jump into your inbox, hey, you know, check this out what I just did, it’s all about, you know, me, me, me and it. Like every time I receive a message like that, I just think like, isn’t this fascinating that there’s another person on the other side of this communication, but they’re not treating me like a person that you would talk to? Like we are face to face? Video? Yeah, you’re they objectify their transactional, they’re focused on like, What can I get from this, and they’re starting from that standpoint.

Joe Nicassio  21:33

Yeah, and it turns into like, A, I want you to buy from me. And if you can’t buy for me, and I can’t buy from you, we neither of us have valued each other and that is so shallow. And yet so many people are operating from that place. And we need to awaken people that there’s a better way to do this.

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:50

So the conversation that people are having that you serve, right before they cross your path before they wake up and realize they need to work with somebody like Joe or work with Joe, what’s happening were like, what are the roadblocks? What place are they in?

Joe Nicassio  22:08

They think that the purpose of a business is to make money. That’s the first roadblock. Like, I’ll ask people, What do you think the purpose of a business is? And if they say the purpose of a business is to make money, they’re either not making money or they’re making money and they’re miserable. Okay, the purpose of a business is to create a customer, a client, or in medical a patient, okay? Without customers, there is no money. There is no business. And I tell people, you need to love your customers. You need to love your customers, you need to love them more than your wife or girlfriend because you know what, no money, no honey, no finance, no romance. So like, customers are your source of income. And if you don’t love them, you know, there’s that there’s that ancient fable, the goose that lays the golden egg. So there’s a farmer, he has a goat goose that lays golden eggs. And he’s making money, but he gets greedy. And so he thinks, Well, maybe if I just cut the goose open, I’ll have all the gold and he kills the goose that lays the golden egg. Your customers are the golden goose. And if you have a goose that lays golden eggs, don’t be greedy and try to squeeze every dollar out of them. If you have a goose that lays golden eggs, you need to hire a goose with suits. You need to pamper the goose that lays you need to treat your customers with love and care and respect and all that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  23:37

I need to write that down. You need to hire a goose with suits. I have not heard that one before. But yes, in my mind, I was like, You need to feed that goose you need to throw like whatever Yeah, however that goose was right.

Joe Nicassio  23:51

And this whole idea do what you love, share the love receive the love is congruent with that. And, and that’s, you know, like when we learn to give more the receiving just happens Jim Rohn used to say that giving is better than receiving because giving starts the receiving process and and if you work on your gifts will make room for you. And so, the big thing is, is how can we organize you so that your gifts are not only valuable, but they’re perceived as valuable? You know, Alan Weis is a great consultant. He said there’s four, you know, why does how does the million dollar consultant make a million dollars, there’s four things you need. Number one is you need to ethical people. You know you need to put on the value and the people you’re working with need to be able to pay for that value, you need to have the ethics. The second piece is the perceived value of the buyer. If the buyer perceives you as worth a million, they’ll pay you a million if you know if I bring Heather if I bring you a $4 million a newfound profit you’re not currently experiencing Would you share? You know if I bring you $1 And you found profit would you share a quarter? You know, would you you know if I put $4 million on the table you slice off a million for me and The thing is, is, if the customer perceives you as worth a million, then they’ll pay you a million, but if they only perceive is worth 100 bucks, they’re not going to pay you one on one. And so the best way to have high perceived value is to deliver real value. But even though you offer a ton of real value, doesn’t guarantee that the other side perceives it. So we have a responsibility to manage perceptions to make sure the buyer understand that, that’s the second piece. The third piece is, and this is the biggest reason people don’t make the million is you’re only going to make a million if your self esteem supports it. If you’re charging, you know, 500 bucks an hour, and I solve your problem in 10 hours, you paid me 5000 And you made 4 million, you win and I kind of lose, you know, I put a lot of money in your pocket for only five grand. And so we need to have the self esteem and the courage to, to stand up for what we’re worth. And then the fourth piece is you don’t get paid what you’re worth, you get paid what you negotiate. So if you need to talk to Heather upfront, you need to negotiate it upfront, and get it contractually locked in, you know, to hopefully make sure that everything goes as planned. But is that helpful?

Heather Pearce Campbell  26:13

It is. There are some real you know, speaking of the golden goose, there’s some real golden nuggets in what you just shared, which is that so many of us and the folks that I serve, which are probably a lot of the folks that you serve, if I were to guess, Joe there, they are heart centered service based people and this this discussion around value can be really challenging, right?

Joe Nicassio  26:37

I’ve taken deep dives on value, I have a whole slide presentation on just what is value, because we don’t even know what I mean.

Heather Pearce Campbell  26:44

Especially the part around you know, value has to be given and it has to be received. But I also like your language around perceived right, we have to control that we have to manage that because there is no value if people don’t perceive it.

Joe Nicassio  27:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so and so one of the ways we do that is we cannot big mistake people make we need to be the trusted adviser and not the salesperson. If somebody perceives you as a salesperson trying to earn a commission, your value drops. But you want to be the ciliary you want to be that advisor that the dawn that the Godfather that the the the leader when and that’s, I think that that’s one of the gifts I’ve worked so hard, you know, I made a million lost everything. When on a quest for the truth. And when you quest, when you seek the wisdom, eventually you’ll find some. And then, you know, it’s refreshing when I speak pearls of wisdom or give those gold nuggets. People are like, wow, that was a gold nugget because the truth is refreshing.

Heather Pearce Campbell  27:53

Yes, it is. And I think it’s so easy for the truth, even in business to get lost in the mire of like, again, it’s information overload. You got to do this, you got to try this. You got to be this and people being able to decipher like what are the fundamentals what really works, right? There’s I mean, a million different voices in that marketplace around what works.

Joe Nicassio  28:20

I have a story about fundamentals. So once upon a time a man walks onto a construction site, and there’s three guys working. Guess the first guy, what are you doing like I’m laying bricks? Yes, the second one is like building a wall. Yes, the third guy, what are you doing, he like smiles and he looks to the heavens, this is I’m building a cathedral. And if you’re tired of laying bricks in your business and building walls, I’m John Ocasio and I’m a badass business coach and I can help you build a cathedral. But you know what, you cannot build a cathedral on hustle alone because if you do, it will fall down and crumble. If you want to build a tall cathedral, it starts with having a strong foundation of strong fundamentals. And that’s why I started this employ Escape Plan coaching program to give people those fundamentals and real quick, number one, choose your business wisely. Number two, build a brand. That’s emotional. Number three is making an offer package yourself attractively with good offers and good storytelling. Number four is promote effectively get the word out and make people aware that you exist and get them to raise their hand and and then number five, is you need to have persuasion to close the sale and help people you know to me closing a sale is helping people choose wisely. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:39

It’s walking them through the path of overcoming their own mindset, their own challenges their own blindness to do the next best thing.

Joe Nicassio  29:49

And then the last one to mental is now that you’ve closed the sale you got to perform do the work, deliver the goodies build a reputation of integrity that you do what you say you’re going to do when you say you’re going to do it. And you know this is A big piece for a lot of people, you know, commitment is doing what you say you’re going to do when you say you’re going to do it integrity is doing it every single time. And there is no such thing as partial integrity. You either have it or you don’t. And so a lot of times, companies, you know, they have a restaurant, they serve good food, you know, they they have a good ambience people come in, I’m sure you’ve had, have you ever had this experience, you’ve been to a restaurant, you had all those things, and it was a great experience, then you go to the bathroom, and it’s disgusting. And it destroys every good feeling. And it’s because you didn’t have complete integrity with your promise. And so those are fundamentals those if you do those six things, choose your business wisely, branded properly, packaged with an offer and story. If you’re good at promoting getting the story out closing the sale, and then actually keeping your promises, you can actually build a business that’s durable, that is failure resistant, and risk, mitigated.

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:04

Well, I love and I love that you tied it into the risk conversation only because that’s the world I live in, right? It’s talking to folks about risk, but your bathroom example is perfect. I, I talk with business owners and entrepreneurs regularly about what I call avoiding red flag clients, and avoiding creating red flag scenarios, right. And the conversation is about analyzing every touchpoint that your business has with a client or potential customer and creating consistency. It’s about that messaging of like, who are we what do we do? What experience are you going to have with us and I love that your frame on it is integrity, right? So that bathroom was totally out of integrity with the rest of the message that business sent, right and it spoiled the entire client journey that entire client experience. And that’s what I talk about from the perspective of avoiding creating a red flag scenario is by having consistent touch points being consistent in your business and your the legal contracts, the legal support, the legal structure that you put in place to support your business policies to support your client journey is just one aspect of that. And the follow through right remaining and integrity is huge. Because people don’t like surprises. They don’t want to be told one thing and have the experience be totally different.

Joe Nicassio  32:31

Yeah, if you make a promise and keep a promise, and you do it quick, that’s called the Speed of Trust. Stephen, Mr. Covey, Stephen Covey son wrote a book on that. And, you know, if you, if you buy a book from Amazon, they ship it the next day, it’s like, we have a very trustworthy relationship with Amazon. But if you go to the DMV, and you pay for your driver’s license, and takes three months to get there, no wonder we don’t trust the government. Because if Amazon can deliver overnight, why can’t the government, it’s like, we’ve seen that people can respond quickly, but they don’t. And if the government wanted to improve their own PR, they would do things a lot more quickly. Agreed. But I want to, I want to, I want to come back to this idea of risk and failure. Because a lot of people think that business is risky, and failure is eminent. And if you start from there, you’re actually kind of new. So is it true that business is risky? I mean, we see subway restaurants open every day, how many times? Have you seen a subway close and go out of business? They have a formula that works. Okay, and a lot of people do. And so, you know, is it true? And can you be certain it’s true that businesses fail? No, there are plenty of counter examples that actually say, success is inevitable. When you do things right, risk, Warren Buffett’s that risk comes from not knowing what you’re doing. So there’s all these heavy feelings of risk and failure. Now, here’s the question is how do you react when you have those thoughts of risk and failure? Now, here’s the power question. Who would you be without those thoughts? Who would you be if you so I have an example I use all the time. Imagine that you have a neighbor that needs their mom’s lawn mowed. And they say, you know, Heather, if you come over and mow my lawn or clean my house, I’ll pay 100 bucks. So you go mow the lawn, and now you’ve collected 100 bucks. To me, that’s called a business success. You’re up 100 bucks. And say they actually have you come out every two weeks and mow the lawn. You get success after success after success. So why do businesses fail? Oh, I’m making money mowing lawns. I’m gonna go buy a truck that’s $20,000.06 $100 a month payments. You are now in trouble. Because it’s so simple. If your outflow exceeds your income, then your upkeep becomes your downfall. And so we need to get really good at the income producing side. And we need to really get really good at controlling by expenditures. And if you do those things, well, you will succeed. And, and this is what gets people in trouble is they spend money on crap, that doesn’t work.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:20

Right? I know this, I can attest to this.

Joe Nicassio  35:24

I know it’s more complicated than that. But, you know, instead of focusing on why people fail, let’s focus on how you can succeed because that’s a better.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:33

Yes. And so, back to my question of what are people experiencing before they go, oh, I need Joe. Like, what? What’s happening in their business? Are they just not growing? Are they still trying to explore like square one how to even set up a business? Where are they at?

Joe Nicassio  35:53

Now, there’s, typically there’s some struggles, are you struggling, you know, that there’s some struggle, or there’s missing pieces? I think one of the crimes in the whole entrepreneur education space is a lot of people sell partial solutions. Yes. So it’s like, oh, I learned NLP. They told me it would help me grow my business, but like, you haven’t even designed a product yet. I mean, I I, one of my clients, one of my past clients, he’s like, he’s taking all these classes. He’s taking the peak potentials classes, and he’s taking all the landmark classes and he’s taking this NLP entrepreneur classes. And I’m like, What business are you and it’s like, he hadn’t figured it out. Like, how many of these people are actually teaching you to get your cash register to ring, he’s like, none of them. Like, that’s why you should hire me. They put 3000 bucks on a credit card he hired me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:42

So is that usually the first problem you solve? Getting the cash register?

Joe Nicassio  36:47

The first problem is not knowing what business to be in, is one, not knowing how to like, find people like attracting, marketing, generating leads and interest. The A lot of people teach, sell to your warm market sell organically to your list on Facebook, and your list on Facebook. I’m sorry, folks, it’s limited to 5000 people, there’s 8 billion people on the planet. And so if if you want to grow your business, you have to grow, go outside of those circles into the circles where your people hang out. I got a great story. One of my clients, she was importing Himalayan salt, licks for horses, salt licks, made out of Himalayan salts for horses. And she had pallets of these products. And she she was doing all the internet marketing stuff. She was she had a website she was doing tell webinars she was she had her Facebook, she was she did this stuff for like, five or six months. And she only sold like three units. So she hired me. And the first thing I said is okay, I looked at all she was doing, I said, let me ask you a question. How many horses do you think are on Facebook? And the answer is none. And I said, Look, I want you to go to your computer, find out where all the horse shows the horse events? Where are the horse competitions? Where are the tax stores? Where are the feed shops, you know, who are the farriers. And then after you get that list, turn off your computer, get in your car and go to those events. And in 45 days, she sold all of your product and had to order more. That’s right. Because low tech effective is better than high tech ineffective. And sometimes we need to actually get in front of our customers to let them know we exist and have a higher quality conversation than some kind of chat on Messenger. So you know, we have to look at what’s the best way to go about this. And sometimes it is online, and many times it’s not. Or sometimes you need to do both. Right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:56

Well, and I love actually backtracking clear to square one because I feel like there’s plenty of people who could reevaluate if they’re having struggles, could re evaluate that very first step in the process.

Joe Nicassio  39:11

So I think the first thing is, you know, I say do what you love. Are you not enjoying what you do? They’re a good client for me. You know, sharing the love, are you effective at sharing the love and promoting and marketing. And if you’re having trouble sharing the love or effectively sharing the love and generating those leads and that interest, you’re a good client for me. And if you have trouble receiving the love, maybe you’re generating leads and interest but you can’t close the sale. I mean, Heather, I’ve learned 19 Different selling systems. I’m a freak. You know, when I when I was learning from Jay RAM, I made a million lost everything and I went to one of his paid seminars. It’s like five grand, I put like 500 bucks on a credit card that I could barely afford that. And after that event, which was mind blowing. They said Joe, would you like to go to another seminar? I’m like, I can’t afford it. You know, you know my situation. They said we know. Could you barter I said, Well, what do you need? What can I do and they said, We need transcription. So they sent me boxes and boxes of audio, two sets of recordings of 30 years of marketing think tanks, divided by 30 different topics. And I listened to these things word for word, some of them were very hard to listen to. And I had my, on a yellow tablet, I was word for word, transcribing these with my hand on the rewind button. And then after I typed these things up, word for word, I summarize them and sent those 30 topics into Jay’s office. And that stuff all got compiled into the Jay Abraham marketing encyclopedia. And I spent over 25,000 hours learning what I know about marketing today. And you can’t get that kind of education at the University.

Heather Pearce Campbell  40:47

That’s amazing. What a I mean, what a crazy and cool story, though, about like, what a deep dive that was into marketing. And, you know, truthfully, you know…

Joe Nicassio  41:00

What I made money in, lost it. And so the second time around, I wasn’t chasing the money. I was chasing the truth, I was chasing the wisdom. So I was putting 12 and 1314 15 hour days, because I was passionate. I went on an obsessive compulsive quest for the truth of what really works. Because there’s, I’ve learned so much of what we learned about businesses a big fat lie. Yeah. You know, people say, Oh, always be closing, though, always be opening. Most people kill the cell in the first 60 seconds.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:28

i Yes, Hallelujah to that. So I shared a story. And it’s fresh in my mind, because the same woman contacted me yesterday or the day before called me again. But the first experience with her was so unpleasant. That like, I was so clear on my boundary, she had said, we met at a networking event, and she said, Oh, let’s schedule a coffee date. Right? I was like, great. I’m all about getting to know the person and actually, you know, being human in the process, so that you know, the person and it’s not a sales conversation or a business conversation.

Joe Nicassio  42:02

You want to know how quickly lose people. Hi, this is Joe with rapid results, marketing, boom, I just lost you are Hi, this is Heather with legal warrior website. It’s that quick, because I’m a person with a company, which means I probably have an agenda to make a sale. And that means all your defenses go up. So we shift that. Hello, Heather, maybe you can help me for a moment. This is Joan Ocasio you don’t know me or we just met at a chamber mixer. And you seem like a cool person. I wonder if you’re open to the idea of getting together for a conversation. So I can learn more about your business and see if there’s ways I can help you. And maybe we can help each other. I mean, how do you how do you resist? Right? Right. And most people like to think that they are open. But you know, hello, Heather. So instead of saying Hi, this is Joe, which puts me first Hi, Heather, I’m putting you first. Maybe you can help me for a moment. That’s humble. And it’s a genuine request for help. And we want to help each other if it’s genuine. And it’s something that’s not too much. So the way we open can be the difference between positioning ourselves as the trusted adviser or that salesperson. It’s just trying to make a buck.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:22

Well, totally. And I think so many people are turned off to it are not receptive to sales conversations, because everybody that I know has experienced that conversation going wrong.

Joe Nicassio  43:39

Well, and that’s because we were never taught to do it the right way. So here’s another big fat lie about businesses. People say sales is a numbers game. No, sales is not a numbers. game sales is a relationship game. It’s, you know, if I if you treat people like a number, guess what, you deserve all the sales. Okay, sales is a relationship game, and it’s a mastery game. So, you know, if you sell most people would be happy. If you sold nine out of 10 people, you would think that’s good. But let me give you a metaphorical example. Imagine that there’s a disease, that you have a medicine and if people eat that medicine, they live and if they don’t eat that medicine, they die. Okay? And so if you can help somebody and you don’t help them, you’re actually doing them a moral disservice. So if you sell nine out of 10 people, and one doesn’t buy your medicine, that means one person died on your watch. Okay, so if you can help people and they are qualified to have your help, you have a moral obligation to do everything you can to make sure that they consume the medicine that’s going to help improve their life, their conditions, their business, their legal status, their whatever. And, and I call that mess mastery. Mastery is the opposite of the numbers game. No, nobody achieves mastery, nobody gets 10 out of 10 all the time. Like, I have people I know I could help them they still don’t buy and you know, it’s kind of weird. You can kind of see people, you know, pride that’s a big one Pride goes before destruction, you can see the destruction before. It’s like I don’t know if it’s gonna happen this week, or it might be a month from now or a year from now. But it’s it’s like a mathematical equation, your pride. I already can see where it’s gonna lead. And I can’t help you until you actually I can’t help you solve your problems if you don’t admit that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:37

Well, that’s right. The conversation I actually had right before this one we talked about humility, being like one of the most powerful assets you can have in business right? Knowing knowing you don’t know knowing that you need help to be able to get to where you want to go.

Joe Nicassio  45:56

My spiritual lesson in the last 12 months has been humility is not thinking less of yourself. It’s thinking more about…

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:05

and about being open being open to benefiting from you know, the knowledge from other people that have walked before that understand the path that can help you get from here to there.

Joe Nicassio  46:17

Yeah, your ego is not your Amigo.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:21

So many writer downers I know. So I love this conversation. I mean, you have shared a lot that people can really dig into here, I think you have a gift to share with people that are listening. And for folks that are listening, make sure you pop over because I’m going to share all of Joe’s contact information, his website, his bio, but also a link to this free gift in the show notes. And that’s at www.legalwebsite.warrior.com/podcast. But Joe, share with us for a minute about your gift.

Joe Nicassio  46:56

Yeah, I’ve got a couple gifts. And the first one is I wrote a book called resurrecting America’s entrepreneurial spirit. And I was asked to speak to 50 people who are bachelors, masters and PhDs, the one thing they had in common is they were all unemployed. And I was there to teach them how to market their skills. And they said, Joe, we don’t have trouble finding a job, we have trouble finding a job of the thing we actually learned in the university system. And the first thought was, that’s a failure of the university system, how do you get a PhD in something and not be able to do something with it in the marketplace? So that’s my first thought. So I said, I asked this group of people, I said, Well, if you can’t find a dream, nobody owes Heather a dream job. You know, the committee for Heather’s dream job is like in your mirror. Right? And, you know, if you can’t find a dream job out there, how many would like to create your dream job as an entrepreneur by starting your own business? 60% of the hands when? And then my follow up? question was, well, how many of you are afraid of starting your own business? And like, 100% 100% of the hands that up? And I’m like, This is America, the land of opportunity? Like why are you afraid to do what you’re entitled with this country allows you to do. And I realized that that fear of starting a business was not, it was partly an education problem, but it was a spiritual problem. And that inspired me to write this book, resurrecting America’s entrepreneurial spirit, and it identified 21 things that kill our spirit, and 21 ways to overcome each of those. And that book, I wrote it, and if you want to get it, you can go to business incubator community.com. And when you log when you join the group, it asked three questions. So one of the questions is, Would you like a copy of that book, pop in your email, I’ll give it to you. The other gift I have is once you join that community, I actually have another gift. If you go to the file section, I have a document on choosing your business wisely. And it’s about inventorying all of your magic and your skills and your passions and your expertise, expertise. And then the third gift I started this week, putting I have these five videos I put on positioning planning, packaging, promotion, persuasion, not the planning, positioning, packaging, promotion, persuasion performance, I have those five videos and I just put the first one up in the unit section. So there’s a free branding class that’s in there now there’s a choose your business wisely thing and there’s a copy of my book all free when you join my little commodity.

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:38

Awesome! Well, I will put that link in the show notes so that people can grab that they can learn more about you find out where to connect with you. Joe, this has been so much fun. I feel like we probably just got like the tip of the iceberg based on your experience but there was so much yes there.

Joe Nicassio  49:57

You know I have so much in my brain and then my heart to share with people. And I have to actually regulate it because if I give you too much too quick, your head explodes. So I have to like give them you know, I’m kind of, you know, I don’t know if you know this about me but I am a laptop lifestyle digital nomad, I travel I’m in LA right now, Sunday, I’m traveling for a week up to Santa Maria. I just spent three weeks in Sedona and I run my business from the road from as long as I got my laptop and computer connection, good internet connection, I can serve my clients all over the world. And yeah, I mean, I can’t give it. I’m like this. I don’t know if you ever saw that movie, or the TV show Kung Fu. You know, quite striking. Anyway, it’s like, I’m this Buddhist. It’s like, I’m this monk. I’m actually a Mormon. But it’s like, I’m this monk. And I travel and I drip a little wisdom on somebody and they blossom. And then I travel along like triple make blossom. Just kind of my weird journey. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:58

Yeah, I love it. I can relate. So it’s funny, because since I, I was raised Mormon, FYI. So I’m sure we could have a whole other conversation. But as a kid, that was my very first exposure to speaking was right. In the Mormon church. Get up? Yeah. Like, as a kid, like, I remember, like, they would assign you talks that you’d give in front of the whole congregation. And anyways, the funny thing is, I look back on that. And as an adult, I actually love public speaking. My problem, even though I’ve got nerves, meaning that I have a lot of nervous energy, it’s, it’s what you just said, which is that, like, I have to contain myself and my energy, because I just want to like, pour it out and give, give, give and, you know, give people all the things and I totally, actually, like our mutual friend, that can over deliver, right, yeah, totally over the limit.

Joe Nicassio  51:54

Well, you know, business is really about giving and receiving. And the big thing if I could give people one walk, walk away, because you said you have a lot of heart centered people that you that they’re big givers give with wisdom. Yes. Give to the givers. That’s right. givers are wired to give back don’t give to the takers give to the givers. That’s right. And, and I promise you that one thing will improve your life so much. So quick. Give to the givers.

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:22

Absolutely and I love that. People should definitely be watching for that. Because one of the things that I talk regularly about is how do you tell that somebody is going to be a red flag client? There are always signs early on almost.

Joe Nicassio  52:37

There’s three things in my book I wrote about this number one, is innocent, the Justice rule innocent until proven guilty. Okay. And the second rule is the baseball rule, three strikes, and you’re out. And the third one is the gratitude rule. You know, if you give to people and they at least give you that heartfelt appreciation, you know, at least they’re coming from the right place. So those are three things that you can size people up real quick. You got to be a little bit innocent till proven guilty. And give people you know, don’t just give people blanket trust, give little pieces out and let people prove themselves and establish your tracker.

Heather Pearce Campbell  53:19

Well, I love that even the concepts of the baseball like the back and forth, right? Because a lot of people that are not the givers, they’re the takers. And you can spot them early on because they ask, they complain, they want things kind of out of bounds that your other people that you’re serving don’t want or request from you, right there ways that you can spot like, Oh, this is potentially a problematic client.

Joe Nicassio  53:42

Yeah, there’s two kinds of buyers. There’s the the grateful buyer and the reluctant buyer. Okay, the reluctant buyers always trying to squeeze you. You know, back in November, I had a client rehire me because he was starting a new business. And I told he asked me how much I wanted for to support him for a whole year. And I gave him a number I said, Joe, I know how much you give, I’m gonna actually pay you more than you’re asking. We paid me $500 more than what I was asking. And my response was, I love you. But so, you know, when people actually are willing to give a little more versus squeeze every dime out of it, you know, if they’re willing to give a little more you know, you’re dealing with a grateful buyer instead of a reluctant buyer.

Heather Pearce Campbell  54:25

I love that. We’ve covered so much I know I appreciate you. Thank you for those final thoughts. I hope we have the chance to talk again. For anybody listening. Please check out Joe and his contact information and his free gifts in the show notes at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Thank you so much, Joe. Thank you.

GGGB Outro  54:48

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own grave. ventures for key takeaways links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more see the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us to keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.