May 3rd, 2022
With Julie Hood, the Owner of CourseCreatorsHQ.com. Julie helps turn coaches, authors, experts and bloggers into well-paid experts with their own amazing online courses. She helps connect with prospects online through inbound marketing techniques, leverages social media strategies to target and attract their audience, determines which online marketing practices best fit their business, and expands their credibility to become thought leaders in their industry.
Join us in our exciting conversation as she shares the best tools, resources and strategies using online courses and convert them into passive income.
Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:
- “It is way tougher to keep things simple than it is to … share everything you know.”
- “We want people to get all the way through the course, and actually get to that transformation on the other end.”
- Why is having an email list important?
Check out these highlights:
- 05:44 If you’re really trying to help people, if you’re trying to improve their lives, let’s do it as efficiently as possible.
- 12:54 Let’s not create a course that’s 60 hours long that people won’t get to finish, let’s get them to that transformation as efficiently as possible.
- 22:44 On Julie’s evolution, from helping her clients launch a course in 24 hours to taking it to the next step (marketing & filling that course).
- 28:35 Figuring out where you like to be (on social media) is so essential and not where all the gurus are telling you you need to be…
- 35:03 My central hub is the email list. I’m trying to make sure I send something really helpful, educational every single week. I always have a link in my emails, whether it’s something free or something for them to buy or get.
- 36:25 Hear Julie share on direct messaging for relationship building.
- 40:52 On balancing investment in technology & sales.
- 48:55 Learn more about Julie’s challenge, coming up May 25th called “The Topic and Title Challenge”, a 5-day challenge where she will support you in coming up with a topic and title for your course.
How to get in touch with Julie:
On social media:
Learn more about Julie here.
Imperfect Show Notes
We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.
GGGB Intro 00:00
Coming up today on Guts, Grit and Great Business™…
Julie Hood 00:04
So when I’m working with my clients, a lot of times we’ll have to sit down and really tear apart what their outline is going to be and really dig into Okay, what are your lessons and are these really essential to get someone from point A to point B? And the things that aren’t are fantastic bonuses, make those extra things, make those 2.0 of your course, make those other things that you do freebies, but those essential steps and figuring out what those are. That’s kind of the secret to keeping your course better than most of the ones that are out there. The challenge is, you may not know that right off the bat. So you kind of have to work with a few people. Put some beta testers through your course and see, you know, what, what do people absolutely need to get going.
GGGB Intro 00:56
The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.
Heather Pearce Campbell 01:28
Alrighty. Welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, the Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving online entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business. I am so excited to share my friend, Julie hood. Welcome, Julie.
Julie Hood 01:52
Oh, thanks for having me. I’ve loved your title. That sounds like so much fun.
Heather Pearce Campbell 01:58
I love it too. I you know, I tell people my podcast is one of my favorite places to spend time. So, so happy that you’re here. I think this is probably a couple years overdue. I’m pretty sure that we met at a actually maybe it was the first online genealogy event. Right. Our mutual friend Jay for set I think is where you and I met. So you know, that probably has been almost two
Julie Hood 02:23
years. Yeah, I can’t believe it’s flown by, right?
Heather Pearce Campbell 02:27
I know. So much has happened. Oh, my goodness. Well, welcome. And for folks that don’t know Julie Hood, Julie helps turn coaches, authors, experts and bloggers into well paid experts with their own amazing online courses. She shares the best tools, resources and strategies each week on her course creators headquarter podcast and her website at coursecreatorshq.com
Julie Hood 02:54
Heather Pearce Campbell 02:56
Good to see you.
Julie Hood 02:58
Yes, so fun. I know, we’re gonna have a good time today. So…
Heather Pearce Campbell 03:02
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I know, I mean, I’m sure we could dig into all sorts of things that have led you to where you are, but give us the quick overview of your background and some of the highlights that landed you now as a course creator expert in the online world.
Julie Hood 03:21
You know, I have had such a winding path that we could probably do the entire podcast episode, but I will give you the high, the high versions of I study computers and accounting. So I got to work in the corporate world for a while as the dreaded thing an auditor. Yeah, and so that was obviously not a whole lot of fun. So I stepped away when my kids were born and moved right into doing online stuff. And so I’ve had a lot of years of being online, mainly in the background, working behind the scenes to help people build their businesses. So it’s been great because I got a lot of when you’re the one in the background, you really get to see how things work. And so I got to work with a lot of really great partners and their teams and see how things come together. And then in 2017, I realized, you know, course creators and the experts that create courses, those are the people that I really love hanging out with because, you know, they’re out to make the world a better place with what they know and share it that way. So I’ve focused in and switched to just primarily working with course creators and people who are doing group coaching, you know, that sort of the same concept. Let’s have a course and we’ll coach you through it. So it’s been a blast. I love it and I could so I’m really glad finally kind of found the place where I like to play.
Heather Pearce Campbell 04:53
That’s awesome. Well, and I you know, you’ve covered what you love, and I agree because you and I serve at least as similar segment of the marketplace, like a portion of our audience overlaps, right? Is there anything that you dislike about the online space? Or the online world of business?
Julie Hood 05:12
Oh, that’s such a good question. I would have to say, sometimes there’s way too much hype. And, you know, way too much. Let me force you through my process. In fact, today, I was on a webinar that I thought was going to be really good and 30 minutes, and we still hadn’t gotten to any content. That was helpful. And so like, I’m gone, you know, I think some of those things could kind of get in the way with, with, you know, if you’re really trying to help people, if you’re really trying to improve their lives, let’s do it as efficiently as possible.
Heather Pearce Campbell 05:50
And as you know, I was having an interesting conversation, actually, with another podcast guest just yesterday, he lives in the copywriting messaging space, right. So he’s all about helping people with their messaging. And, you know, we had a portion of the conversation around how tired people are of the gimmicks and the tactics and the shock and awe and the, you know, all of the the ways that you see levers get pulled and push to get people to do a certain thing or behavior online. Right. And I think there is a huge portion of the marketplace, that’s just really over it.
Julie Hood 06:29
Right. And so much, so I think that it can really damage your your expertise, you know, people, people started to see it enough now that they just don’t believe you anymore. And I hate to see that. Because sometimes you could lose some good people who are have gotten the wrong advice. So
Heather Pearce Campbell 06:52
yes, yeah, like an excellent exclamation mark behind what you just said, because the challenge for people, including course creators, and experts who are looking for new ways to get their services and their knowledge out there is that they’re still facing the uphill challenge of creating a small business, right, creating a business around what they’re doing. And so they end up trying things, some of which inevitably don’t work and relying on bad advice and advice that may not be a particular fit for them or their audience. And, you know, one of the examples, actually, what you were just talking about, like, webinars are a great example of this. You know, how many times have you sat through a webinar? And you’re like, Oh, here’s the formula again, right? Here’s the, you can just literally predict the next step. And the next thing they’re gonna do in the presentation, because everybody’s following that formula. And here’s the stack. And here’s how I’m going to show you all the value and I’m going to back off the total price. And here’s to, you know, and it’s just like, oh, yeah, I just think in the evolution to web 3.0. Right, a lot of those kinds of things are gonna die off.
Julie Hood 08:12
I think so too, because they they just aren’t working as well. Although I have to say, I do use the stack slide in mind to 100% Sure, it’s fair there. But yes, but
Heather Pearce Campbell 08:25
And let’s be clear that there are certain ways that we just have to understand how human psychology works. So for example, I end up coaching clients all the time on what happens when you have a client that shows up with buyer remorse, right, because then suddenly, somebody is in the position of having to, you know, enforce their refund policy or their terms of purchase or something right, and so, but I feel like one of the best ways we can prevent that stuff from happening, is having really clear conversations up front with our potential prospects about their comfort zone about what might happen after they decide to take the next step in their business. And anyways, I just, you know, I think we can benefit from knowing the formulas and knowing why they work, but also having a much different conversation about it directly with the potential customer or the potential client.
Julie Hood 09:26
Well, and then, I’m so glad you said that, because sometimes I will get course creators that are like, Okay, I’m going to create this course, I’m going to sell 1000 copies and make all this revenue, the very first launch that I do, and even my high end clients will have a launch that just doesn’t work. And we were going through this the other day and trying to figure out you know, okay, why isn’t the selling what do we need to tweak and and they did need to tweak it and then the sales were better but I think if there were more people that were a little more straightforward on how, how much you kind of have to do to get to that point, it would be better because I agree with you, I want people to be realistic, and but not deflate their excitement. It’s kind of a difficult balance.
Heather Pearce Campbell 10:15
Totally, I think you have to be really real. Like, you know, I like to think because I care so much about my work. And I really love it. And I love my clients that that shows when I’m talking with them, when I’m speaking, when I’m presenting from stage like, it often feels like I’m overly caffeinated even when I’m not. I think to serve our clients well and take care of our business, we have to understand certain marketing rules, certain marketing concepts, even psychology around like, where do people’s eyeballs go, when they hit a website, you know, or a landing page, like, it’s important to understand that stuff. And still be really true to your values to your core messaging, and not be not let yourself kind of get pushed to the side or pushed off course because of what an expert is telling you to do.
Julie Hood 11:09
Right. Right. And my favorite is, is when folks will have four or five experts all telling them what to do this happens a lot. So I’ve always like please just pick one at a time. Let’s work it with one at a time, and then definitely get more opinions. But otherwise, you kind of in that land of, well, this person is telling me this, and this person’s telling me this. And now what do I do?
Heather Pearce Campbell 11:36
Right, right. So with your clients, and I know you’ve seen the insides of a lot of businesses, what do you love in particular about courses?
Julie Hood 11:49
So I think it goes back I was I was, I was thinking about this the other day, and when I was a kid, one of my favorite toys, and I’m gonna totally date myself here, because I don’t think it’s even created anymore. But way, way back, there was this great toy that was a Fisher Price School set. And it was a you know, the little Fisher Price people and you had the teacher and the bell on top and the playground. And it was one of my favorite toys. But I never really wanted to be a teacher, per se. I was the concepts of it were interesting, but I knew I was not like Let’s spend all day with children, a whole room full of little kids, that was not going to be my thing. Got it? No, but I love the concept of teaching and sharing and helping people get from where they are to a different place. And doing that in the easiest amount of of motion. So that’s the part that I like is, you know, let’s not create a course that’s 60 hours long that people won’t finish, let’s get them to that transformation as efficiently as possible. So that’s kind of the part that I like to help people figure out.
Heather Pearce Campbell 13:07
Well, you raise a really good point, especially working with and I’m sure you cross paths with a lot of experts as your clients, right? Putting 60 hours into a course it’s like a brain dump right here, I’m gonna give you all my knowledge and all my expertise and all this information, isn’t it wonderful? How you get people to do the work that it takes to slim it down to really get it to bare bones and and just only use what is specifically essential for that client transformation.
Julie Hood 13:41
And, you know, it really does take some effort. And I think they’re, I can’t remember who the quote is from, but it was talking about how it is way tougher to keep things simple than it is to just kind of share everything you know. And so a lot of my clients when I’m working with them, they really want to help people. And so they just want to give everything they know, like it’s comes from a good place of like, I have all this information. And I want to make sure I share it all with you to increase, you know, increase the value of the course. But I’m going to steal a or borrow a quote from one of my coaches. Her name’s Brooke Castillo and she described it this way. And she said, if you were going to the dentist, and you had to get a root canal, would you prefer the dentists do the five minute root canal procedure? Or would you prefer they do the 60 Minute root canal procedure and they’re gonna cost you the same amount of money. And that, you know, she said that that really sunk in to be let’s let’s, you know, figure out the five minute piece of it. So when I’m working with my clients, a lot of times will have to sit down and really tear apart what their outline is going to be and really dig into. Okay, what are your lessons and are these really essential to To get someone from point A to point B, and the things that aren’t, are fantastic bonuses, make those extra things, make those 2.0 of your course, make those other things that you do freebies, but those essential steps and figuring out what those are. That’s kind of the secret to keeping your course better than most of the ones that are out there. The challenge is, you may not know that right off the bat. So you kind of have to work with a few people, put some beta testers through your course and see, you know, what, what do people absolutely need to get going. So that’s kind of the process that we go through is, let’s work on your outline. Let’s work on getting some people through your course and see like, how does it work? And starting small, that’s the other thing that I’m really big on. I don’t like it when people come to me and say, I want to do this big signature course. And I’m like, yeah, no, we’re not gonna do that. Let’s start with a smaller course. Because if I can get you all the way through the process of creating a course and getting it live and getting it started selling, then you can do all kinds of stuff, you can go gangbusters and do all kinds of courses in the big coarse. But let’s just get all the way through that first process. So
Heather Pearce Campbell 16:16
well, that’s a really, I mean, I think from a couple perspective, that’s a really important point about starting small. One, they’re just more likely to do the darn thing. Right? Right. You you like, you know, it’s difference between like, I don’t know, I love a good project, like building a house versus building a shed or whatever, like, exactly the thing you can do right now to hone your skills around creating a course. And like when you look at course statistics and the likelihood of somebody on the you know, the receiving end of that course, as a participant actually going through it and completing it. The smaller that it is, the less time that it takes is just so much more in your favor and their favor to be able to make that something that you both can accomplish.
Julie Hood 17:09
Right, right. And that’s what we want, you know, we want people to get all the way through the course, and actually get to that transformation on the other end. So there’s a few things that you can do to help that along the way, but definitely keeping it small is one of the one of the good ones.
Heather Pearce Campbell 17:26
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s funny because I you know, a lot of my content, especially the do it yourself content is really built out more like a library because people can start at different points, they don’t necessarily have to go through it in any particular order. But I did create a mini course, right, my legal basics boot camp, which is like, seriously, as many as you can get, like five videos that are like five minutes each right? Little daily emails, but so tiny, I remember thinking like, this is kind of ridiculous how tiny this is. And it ended up being perfect for me from the standpoint of like, doable, I could actually create it, put it together get it, you know, put out there pretty quickly. But the the real benefit of it is that people will do it multiple times, they’re only ready to hear like one or two pieces, the number of times I’ve had people go through that over and over to absorb something different. And this is only like five minute videos, they wouldn’t be doing that if it was an hour. Right? Or they wouldn’t be doing it if it was a five hour course. And so that to me is like, you know, they’re getting something and they’re going back and they’re getting something else. And that leads them to take the next action. And I think, for me, that’s the whole point of that course is I want them just to take the next simple action for themselves. Right. And it may look different depending on where they are. But yeah, I think viewing courses, not as the be all end all, which I think a lot of people do. And I don’t know, I’d be really curious on your insights on this because you’re working directly with people who are building these courses. But I think there was a real hype for a time around like, oh, I can completely remove myself from my business if I build a course about that.
Julie Hood 19:20
So there is there is some truth to the fact that if I create a course, somebody at midnight tonight that once is in interested, they can sign up, they could get access, they can start right then. So that piece of it is 100% an advantage. But the thing the thought of being able to remove yourself I think is not not completely true in a couple different ways. One is you’re constantly going to have to get in front of new people and be marketing it so even if you aren’t doing the teaching side of It does not work it itself. No. And the second piece of that too is if you can add in some kind of group coaching, or some kind of community, where you are pulling the people that are going through your course, together in some way, it adds infinitely more to the completion rates and your students are happier. And so that, you know, kind of brings you back into it. But the the reason I really like this for people, especially if they’re consultants or coaches, is that if you can put a course together of the content that you’re constantly repeating over and over and over again, to every one of your clients, then you can have them go through that material. And then when you get on the phone with them, when you’re on a zoom with them, you’re actually digging in way deeper than if you were just having to teach that over and over and over again. So it does remove some of that repetitiveness, and gives you, you know, it adds, also, I think, to the prices that you can charge, you know, when you can say, hey, you can sign up with me, and you get these courses that I’ve created. I think that adds a lot to your expertise and your authority. So there’s, there’s definitely some good things, but it’s not it’s not exactly as it was originally sold.
Heather Pearce Campbell 21:22
Well, and I, you know, I totally agree regarding the ways that it can add value. And I guess for me, that the hybrid model that you’re talking about, right, if you can add life coaching, if you can add some other element to that course, I don’t see people ever really wanting to sever relationships from the expert, right? They want the, they want that relationship to you. And so, at least in my opinion, that should not be the thing that goes right. And I think there are easy ways that you can build that in and around the core. So for example, if somebody goes through one of my packages, or bundles or whatever, I always tell them, Look, if you remain on my list, you’re also going to get invited to my live monthly call. And you can show up any time, if you have additional questions, right. And pretty much like for infinity, as long as I keep that live call going, they will have access. And it’s it’s one easy way that regardless of what they’ve purchased from me, they can still show up, get additional training, get support that you know, get questions answered, kind of on the spot and learn from other people. And it really just continues the relationship.
Julie Hood 22:34
I’m so glad you said that, because anyone who’s listening can use this sort of same concept as they’re trying to put together their course. So I’ll tell you sort of the history, I started with my 24 hour course creator program to help people get their course created in 24 hours, we spread it out over an hour a day, or sometimes we’ll do like three, eight hour days to get their first course going. And I was working with some phenomenal experts, and I just loved working with them. And I realized that once they got the course created, then they still needed to then figure out how am I going to get this out into the world and reach all my students. So it was an obvious ongoing relationship. So then I set up another program for the kind of the graduates or people who have a course, where we’re focusing on the marketing, and that was not in my original plan, I thought I’m just gonna teach people to do courses. And it’ll be, you know, it’d be great. And then I realized, like, I get attached to my students, I want to see them succeed and see where things go and help them get out in front of their audience. So we have that additional program that I’ve had several of my students now that keep going and we’re getting ready to to have another round, I put those together. So if you’re thinking about doing something like this, where you’re working with people ongoing, it could be a membership site, or the way I did it, because with membership sites, you always have those issues with churn, when somebody has signed up and then a month or two into it, they’re like, I’m not doing this, I’m going to drop out. So the way I do it is I do six month rounds of additional coaching. So because we can’t really get results in less time than that, like I need them with me for six months. So I do a six month group that comes in and then people can just keep going as many six months as round as they want to. So it’s it’s been really fun and sort of a different way to think about how to use how to work with people. So I think long term, it might help some of your listeners.
Heather Pearce Campbell 24:48
Well, it’s a great example. I think that challenge of like how do you you know, for people that are thinking about memberships as a as an additional layer to add on to what they’re doing it just as a challenge to Know when to pull the trigger? How much demand do you need before you add that layer, you know, but the the churn that you’re talking about is real. And also getting people to show up and utilize the value inside the resource, right is always the trick. And so with a time certain commitment, I think it makes it easier for people to be like, oh, right, I’m just doing this for six months, and then they do it. And then they realize how much value they’ve gotten out of it. Versus even with a low monthly membership model, the the urgency of that resource is a little less, right. They’re like, Oh, well, it was $39, or whatever, it’s not gonna kill me if I miss this meeting I’ve got next month, but then after a few months of doing that, then they’re like, Wait, what am I doing? I’m not even using the resources, boom, I’m just gonna unsubscribe or terminate services, right? Whereas if they’ve been showing up, they probably would have been like, This is amazing. I definitely need to continue, right. Because we, we only get results when we show up.
Julie Hood 26:04
I know, and, you know, life happens. So, but it’s really I was in this is so interesting that you brought this up. I was in a club classroom a couple days ago. And it was a fun room where people say what their goal is for the week. And then they come in on Friday, and they say, whoo, you know, guess what? I did my goal. And the one week, I was listening to how many people it was one goal for the week. And there were a lot of folks that on Friday, you know, just didn’t have their goal done. And I actually messaged the moderator. I said, Does this happen all the time, where you have this many people that didn’t get, they didn’t get to show up for themselves for the weekend? She said, Yeah, he does kind of happen. And so we’re always trying to, you know, help people. So I thought that was unique in the way that sometimes all it is, is showing up, right?
Heather Pearce Campbell 27:00
Yeah, well, and that’s true, right? I mean, it still takes extra work to go do the thing do do the thing that causes the transformation. But if you’re not even in the conversation, it’s way easier to opt out. I love the point that you raised right, you shared a little bit about the benefits of like, Why build a course right? You can it’s a value add for your existing clients. If somebody can’t afford to work with you one on one, maybe the course is kind of the in between level thing, like I’m sure there’s a million ways you can structure it. I know before even this call, you and I had talked about one of the interesting things that you might be able to cover is what are the various ways into a course right? Because you’re right, people have this whole new problem once they build it, like Wait, how do I fill it? How do I populate it? How do I get people to actually, you know, join this resource take advantage of the transformation that they could have. Right? So should we talk for a moment about all the ways into a course?
Julie Hood 28:02
Yes, yes. So I think you have to start by figuring out how do you like to reach people? Are you a that you love Facebook Lives? Or are you the person that loves audio and loves podcasts, or I have one of my students, she’s an amazing writer. So she uses primarily blogging to get her message out and she’ll send emails and and has have her audience connect with her that way, but really figuring out where you like to be is is so essential and not where all the Guru’s are telling you you need to be because there will be somebody that tells you you know, Pinterest is the place
Heather Pearce Campbell 28:49
Do all the things. You need to be everywhere.
Julie Hood 28:53
And I much prefer when I can help my students figure out what is it they like to do and where because I love podcasting and audio. That’s just where I like to be. I’m not as big of a fan of video. So I’m doing podcasts, I’m doing guest podcasting. I do a lot on clubhouse, because it’s actually improved significantly from when it first came out. There’s so many cool features now
Heather Pearce Campbell 29:22
I’m gonna have to pick your brain on that. The funny thing is I tried it for a few weeks and I was like, this is like the big black hole you could never get out of itself. Like there may literally be rooms that were open all day and had a you know, 1000 different moderators over the like it was just crazy. I remember thinking like, Who has time for this? I don’t have time for this.
Julie Hood 29:45
It has changed so much from when it first came out and there was like this explosion of rooms and people and a lot of I guess kind of those HYPEE rooms and a lot of that has cleared away, as it has matured, thank goodness, but they’ve added so many great features now.
Heather Pearce Campbell 30:05
That’s awesome. So for an audio loving person, it could be a great spot.
Julie Hood 30:11
Yes, yeah. So you know, start by figuring that out, because and then I feel like the second step is, once you figured out where you like to be, is finding other people to connect with. And whether it’s a joint venture, or affiliate partners or get promote, yeah, that, to me has been the most effective way to sort of get in front of new people. And, and there’s lots of other things you can do, you know, you can do lots of advertising, you can do all those different kinds of things. But I think for the most direct methodology can be figuring out those good partnerships.
Heather Pearce Campbell 30:55
Oh, yeah. Well,
Julie Hood 30:57
Is that what you’ve seen too?
Heather Pearce Campbell 30:58
Well, exactly. And the point on the partnership thing is like, how much more fun is it to do things in the online space, build a small business, like in collaboration with other people who are also communicating to the folks that you should be in front of right, it just makes sense. And I feel like so many people, for so long, stay in the hard place of trying to figure it out themselves, or run Facebook ads, or do things that are not based on, you know, the relationship factor first, right? When leveraging relationships that you already have, or other fellow experts in your space that are willing to support your business and your business growth? It’s yeah, so many wonderful ways you can do that.
Julie Hood 31:45
100% agree. So I, I’m having so much fun with all the new people I’ve been meeting lately, and it becomes less of a less work and way more, let’s just go play in the playground together and see what we can create.
Heather Pearce Campbell 32:03
Yeah, so for somebody with a course, or who’s building a course, and they’re getting ready to right, figure out the pathways into the course, how do I feel this? Do you have specific recommendations? And let’s pretend they’re like you, or they’re like, Okay, great. I love to get on a podcast, or I love you know, sharing audio recordings, or whatever. Do you have recommendations? Like, should they only be sharing, for example, a landing page each time or the page of their course, each time? Is the is the goal to just drive traffic to that one thing? Or what do you have a more comprehensive strategy than that?
Julie Hood 32:41
So I tell my students, I only have one thing, marketing wise, I’m gonna tell you have absolutely have to do and, and it’s the only thing I’m going to insist on. And that is that you do have to have an email list. And I’ll tell you a quick story on why this is so important. I was working with one of my clients at a big launch that she was doing for her course. And we were looking at all the affiliate partners. And you know, everyone was getting a pretty consistent signup rate of all they were sending clicks, and they were getting 50 60% of the people to actually sign up for the free thing that she was giving away. But there was one guy that had a huge number of clicks and zero signups. And I was so confused, because I thought, you know, it’s working for everyone else. So I emailed him and I said, Hey, you know, what are you doing? Nobody’s signing up.
Heather Pearce Campbell 33:34
Please tell me he was not like running a Facebook ad for it or something?
Julie Hood 33:37
No, but he did say I have 250,000 followers on Twitter. And I’m promoting this on Twitter, which, you know, yay for him creating a huge list of Twitter followers. But his Twitter followers were not interested in signing up for things they were just scrolling. And oh, this is interesting. And so I have shifted my the way I do my online business. And I’ve always done email. But now instead of trying so hard to get social media to perform or to get results from social media, I like to think of all I’m trying to do on social media is nurture the relationship with people who find me, so I want them to come across a something I’ve shared and be like, Ooh, this is helpful. Oh, wow, what else does she have? Not so much that they’re going to do things or click or sign up, but that has made my life so much easier, in that instead of trying to get everybody in Instagram to come sign up. You know, this is not gonna happen. But I do I want to use that piece of it as the nurturing piece of it. And then you know, maybe they’ll come listen to a podcast and then I can get my podcast listeners to come sign up for my email list. And that’s my central hub is the email list, I’m trying to make sure I send something really helpful, really educational every single week. And then I always have a link in my emails, whether it’s something free or something for them to buy, like, I want to obtain my list, you’re going to get links for me to go get things, maybe paid, maybe free, but click the links.
Heather Pearce Campbell 35:27
Yeah, that’s an important point. And I love the both the simplicity and the clarity and what you’ve said, first of all, around how you use social media, right being so clear, like on what your goal is there, because I think can be a really mixed bag for people if they’re doing a bunch of stuff. And not, you know, just not figuring out how to get results. And the nurturing your email list bit is super essential. I know there’s a lot of conversations in the marketplace about what’s happening with email, and bla bla bla bla bla, at the end of the day, it is still like the most important tool you have inside of your business for developing relationships, right? The all the algorithms at any given minute, decide who actually sees your posts on social media, you have no control over who actually sees them.
Julie Hood 36:21
Exactly. And you own that asset of your email list. But one thing I will also add that I’ve noticed has been something that sort of developed over the last couple months for me is uncertain folks that are really interested that I really connect with or specially during my challenge the ones that that we get to interact a bit more, when I can do some direct messaging to them. Whether it’s Facebook Messenger or clubhouse has a messenger now where you can connect with people, that direct content has also been really good for building that relationship with people. So something else to keep in mind when you’re thinking about that. The challenge with that, and I’ll be honest with with trying to do direct messaging is it’s not scalable. So that’s why I do the email list because I can send out one email to everyone who’s who’s connected with me, but the direct messaging is much more personal and much more direct. So you balance it out with the time that you have?
Heather Pearce Campbell 37:26
Well, it’s a super important point, like regardless of what you’re doing, and where you’re spending time like the I think the core question for all of us is, how do we build relationships with our people? Like, what is the best way to do that? And, and I also really appreciate that you put the emphasis on? What do I like to do? Because so often what you hear is, where are your people go there. And while that makes sense, I think you need to know where your people are, I think you really have to have a good understanding of your own personality and preferences. Because if you try to put yourself on a like, go live everyday video schedule and you hate video, you’re probably not gonna do it, or you’re going to be hating it or your energy is going to be weird about it, you know? So finding, and I think really aligning your strategies with the ways you like to show up is just super important. What do you find for your clients are the hardest part of their journey in the course creation and marketing, you know, model, such a good start, what are the sticking points for them.
Julie Hood 38:41
So there tends to be this great excitement at the beginning when you come up with this really good idea. And that’s actually one of the things we do in the five day challenge that’s coming up. I’m doing it again in May. And we focus on people figuring out what their topic is going to be and what their title is going to be. So that excitement around that where you get that momentum going, is so fantastic. And then they keeping them going can be a challenge because then you get into more of the harder part the not quite as exciting part. And your brain steps in and says yeah, this is gonna be tough and it’s gonna be a lot of work and, and so that’s the part where I really working with my clients like, Okay, guys, let’s not make this hard. Let’s just make some decisions. Let’s keep moving forward. You can do this. Let’s get something out there. It does not have to be perfect. So I understand as a recovering perfectionist, I understand you want your course to be perfect. But listen, I gave it out there.
Heather Pearce Campbell 39:47
Right. So many experts are right and yeah, for people that are building courses, they you know, they’re experts by and large. I think the vast majority of them are going to be experts on something and so that personality too. It seems like oh, it’s not good enough. Who will? Who will consume this? Who will like, you know, oh, for anybody that’s actually built a course I think we all can relate to that inner voice.
Julie Hood 40:11
Absolutely. And And the big thing that I like to tell people is, you’re actually a better instructor, when you aren’t so far away from when you learned what you learned. Because you remember what it was like not to know, that can actually make you a much, much better teacher than someone who has been at it for 50 years and has all kinds of awards and PhDs and they don’t remember what it was like not to know.
Heather Pearce Campbell 40:40
That’s a great point. That’s a great point. Yeah. So keeping the momentum going, right coaching people through the process, any other sticking points on the client side?
Julie Hood 40:52
The technology, yeah, can also be one of those sort of pieces of the puzzle that can get challenging. And it’s, it’s one of those things where you have to sort of balance, how much can I invest right now in the technology side of things until I get my sales going? And that’s the question I like to have my students answer because it is going to take a little time to get in front of enough people and get your sales going. So so how much can you do? Because that’s going to also decide which of the tools that you want to use. And not everyone has to worry about budget. But we do like to talk about that question because you want to at least think about it and then you can step into, you know which tool do I like to use, which one gives my students the really great experience, Which one have I used in the past, we’ve had other people who have specific requirements, you know, they want to make sure that they can control how everything looks. So that might be a different tool. So there’s all kinds of things with the technology that can hang people up. And so there’s, I have a couple different strategies that I give my students, I’m like, let’s just get your course live. And it’s never going to be done. This is another message I like to tell people you’re really never going to get to done, because you’re always gonna have new things to improve it and enhance it. So let’s just get it to where it’s in a really good place. And people can use it and sell it and and get the result from the course. And then keep going keep keep expanding. So I intentionally, I will tell you, I intentionally with my students will release, I had three different bonus courses. And I intentionally released it without all the images in the course like the little thumbnail images. I said, Look, guys, I can give this to you, it’s not gonna have the pretty images. But you can get the results. And it’s still good for you, even though it’s not done. And like, it was my my little perfectionist heart was itching. But I thought I need to explain this and like do it and show them that it’s not. It’s okay. Well…
Heather Pearce Campbell 43:08
And it’s so that that point that you just made about getting out there, it’s never going to be done. Right. Right, our work evolves. I mean, and I can attest to the fact that like, I’ve launched several things inside of a course model, like my whole database lives in a course model and elearning platform, where I’m like, oh, like I cringe a little bit, and I hit publish. And like, I just have to let it go out into the world. And, and yet, and I’m not saying it’s perfect, but time and time again, people go through it, I got an email this morning from a client that was a, a one on one, like traditional legal client, I helped her start her business and get all of our stuff in place here in Washington. And then she needed the website protection package, because she’s an expert, and she was creating a course. And so you know, and getting her website all live and all of that. So we got she just went through the bundle, the do it yourself, you know, automated version that I have through my website, and she messaged me this morning and said, Ah, it’s so good. I’m geeking out on all the videos, you know, and like I’m laughing because in my mind, I’m thinking like, Oh, thank goodness, they’re not that great, you know? And yet they deliver the essential information that she needs or that anybody needs, who goes through that program. They deliver the documentation, I’ve got the tip like it’s, it is what it needs to be right in this moment. Right. And so, I think we can be really hard on ourselves and stop ourselves from making that forward momentum because so many of us have those expert brains that keep ourselves from from, you know, iterating course push it live and then iterate.
Julie Hood 44:53
And then I think the other thing that comes up too, is this whole fear of putting it out there. I’m working with one of my students right now in that she’s got this fantastic course, we’ve gone through it, several of the folks in the group have gone through it for her. And I’m like, This is so good people need this. And she’s scared to release it out into the world. And I am still working with her a little bit on, you know, the, we need you. The world needs, what do you have? So that can get in the way, sometimes, too, as being afraid of what if nobody buys? Or, you know, what if it doesn’t work for someone?
Heather Pearce Campbell 45:35
Well, and sometimes I’ll go ahead, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.
Julie Hood 45:37
No, go ahead.
Heather Pearce Campbell 45:39
Julie Hood 46:43
That’s why I’m sending all of my students to go listen to the conversation we had about, you know, go take care of all the legal stuff and make sure that you’ve got that all covered. And then you’re good to go. Yeah.
Heather Pearce Campbell 46:57
Well, and I think sometimes it can actually take some of these personalities a while to figure out what it is that is keeping them stuck.
Julie Hood 47:04
Yeah, exactly. 100%.
Heather Pearce Campbell 47:07
Yeah. Well, Julie, for folks that are listening, I love this. And I know there’s a gazillion other things we could dig into around course creation around mindset around technology, right? You are the expert, you have helped probably 1000s of people through this process through your courses, your work, where do you like for people to connect with you online.
Julie Hood 47:29
So 100% would love for them to come sign up for my email, I mentioned that to you. So I’m sure you can put a link in your show notes, I have a training that is is my course idea in the good or not. So it’s a real short, little 15 minute mini course it’s a great place to get started. And so there’s a link where you can sign up for that. I’m also on Instagram, and I have a podcast, the CourseCreatorsHQ podcast, which I love doing. I love audio. So it has a lot of information, I keep them really short. So every week, you get a little short introduction to some concept, some idea around course creation and marketing. So those are the three big ones.
Heather Pearce Campbell 48:14
Awesome. I love that. Well, I will definitely share your link, folks, if you are actually linked. If you’re listening pop over check out Julie’s website, for sure. I love the idea of is my course any good or not. If you’re in the position of wanting to create a course or you are creating one, go get access to that resource. And then yes, I will put a plug for your podcast as well, because I just spent some time with you there. And so I think probably I’m on one of the recent episodes, but we’ll include a link over to the course creators headquarter podcast as well. Anything else, Julie that you would like to leave our listeners with today?
Julie Hood 48:52
So two things. The first one is I’ve got a challenge coming up on May the 23rd. It’s the topic and title challenge. And people get to spend a lot of time with me during these five days. There’s video training, and then I do zoom calls every day. So we can really figure out what their topic and their title should be. So we’d love to have everybody joined. If you’re interested at all, it’s one of my favorite weeks of the year. And then the second thing I want to say is just thank you to all the experts who are willing to jump into the deep into the pool and improve the world like we need you the world desperately needs what you know to make businesses better to make families better to make our lives and our communities better. So you know it is a commitment and I so appreciate the people who are willing to do it and and jump in and go swimming.
Heather Pearce Campbell 49:45
Right. You are our people and we love you. I love that Julie and I can’t emphasize enough the importance of getting the topic and title right and you know, yes, right. You’ve helped so many people through this process. You have something that’s a mismatch on title and it can just wreck your whole marketing.
Julie Hood 50:05
Right. We want to get the right people coming to you from the title and figuring figuring that out. And it’s so fun because you can get some real time feedback from the group and get people. So we have a really good time that in May so it’s…
Heather Pearce Campbell 50:22
Right. No, that sounds super fun. So if there are any links to share on that we will include them. Thank you so much, Julie. It’s been a pleasure to have you here.
Julie Hood 50:31
Thank you for having me. So good to chat with you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Heather.
Heather Pearce Campbell 50:36
We’ll talk soon bye bye.
GGGB Outro 52:46
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.