With Lisa Manyon, the Business Marketing Architect and President of Write On Creative. She pioneered the simple 3-step “Challenge. Solution. Invitation.™” framework to create marketing messages with integrity by focusing on PASSION points instead of pain points. Lisa’s strategies help you reverse engineers your most powerful solutions into profitable revenue streams (known to produce million-dollar results). Her philosophies are featured in Inc. Magazine and multiple #1 Bestselling books including Wonder Women: How Western Women Will Save the World. Lisa received of the People’s Choice Award at the California Women’s Conference and offers free business-building resources on her award-winning blog.

Join us for this conversation to hear more on Lisa’s framework: Challenge, Solution, Invitation, to rethink and improve your marketing message.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

• “There are two jobs when you own your own business- making your magic and marketing your magic.”
• “Two things will never go out of style- your message and your strategy.”
• “When you own it and you’re really coming from that place of true values and service, the sky is the limit.”

Check out these highlights:

• 6:20 Switching from corporate to her own small business.
• 12:53 Using a challenge, solution and invitation formula instead of the traditional pain point marketing formula.
• 21:10 On using the jargon and language that fits with your brand.  
• 30:20 Strategy and your message are the most important tools for effective marketing.
• 36:56 How attention to her philosophies on marketing started gaining.

How to get in touch with Lisa:

On social media:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WriteOnCreative

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisamanyon/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisamanyon/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/WriteOnCreative

Learn more about Lisa, by visiting her website here: www.writeoncreative.com

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Coming up today on Guts, Grit & Great Business. 

Lisa Manyon  00:04

People often don’t realize that, you know, they want to start their business because they’ve got a certain magic that they want to get out into the world. And I’m all for that. I’m like, yes, let’s make your magic. But there’s always two jobs. When you own a business, it’s making your magic and it’s marketing your magic and the marketing piece takes a lot of time to build up and to get in place as well. And what happens is then people get so overwhelmed with the marketing that they’re not even focusing on their magic and then wondering why they started in the first place.

GGGB Intro  00:32

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:04

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™. Today I am super excited to welcome my friend Lisa Manyon. Lisa is just south of me in Oregon. We’re practically neighbors, I joke but she’s actually in Ashland, Oregon. And we connected a few months ago now – it was, I think pre holidays. And I just thought Lisa would be such a fabulous guest. She has got an area of expertise that everybody who I serve needs. It’s about messaging. It’s about copywriting, how we use language to show up in our business and really express ourselves and connect with our ideal people. And Lisa’s got a unique take on that. So you’re gonna love to connect with Lisa today. For those of you that don’t know her, Lisa is the business marketing architect and president of Write on Creative. She pioneered the simple three step challenge solution invitation framework to create marketing messages with integrity by focusing on passion points instead of pain points. I know that when I heard that it felt like a breath of fresh air. Lisa’s strategies help you reverse engineer your most powerful solutions into profitable revenue streams known to produce million dollar results. Her philosophies are featured in Inc. Magazine and multiple number one best-selling books including Wonder Women, How Western Women Will Save the World. Lisa received the People’s Choice Award at the California Women’s Conference and offers free business building resources on her award winning blog at writeoncreative.com. Lisa, I’m so excited, especially as a fellow Pacific Northwesterner. We’re scheduled to get snow tomorrow. I know you’re getting snow right now. I feel like we’re so connected.

Lisa Manyon  02:59

I know I love it. And it’s so fun to be able to, you know, be in our nice cozy offices. It’s snowing outside, and we can connect virtually and do business anywhere in the world. Right. That’s one of the things that I’m so excited about is I purposely set my business up so that I can work and play anywhere. Yeah, I love that parody recently.

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:19

Oh my goodness, yes. You’re not kidding. It’s been amazing. And it’s funny because even though last year wore me out for some obvious reasons, I’m a, you know, full time parent, I’ve got two young kiddos and trying to work on top of that, during COVID has definitely brought some intensity. But when everybody else by the end of the year was all zoomed out based on you know, connecting too much. I was I was not like the connection and the being able to, you know, essentially escape my home, escape my life for a few minutes and connect with other people. Like it didn’t get old to me, and it still doesn’t. So I’m super excited to have you here. And I’m really excited about our conversation because I know you’ve got a really unique perspective on what you do and how you teach people in the world of you know, entrepreneurship and business building and you bring your unique approach to that. So for folks that don’t know you share with us a little bit about your background, because I know you I think you started in corporate right before

Lisa Manyon  04:23

I did. Yeah, so I have multiple decades of experience in marketing, advertising, copywriting and publicity. And so I’ve worked for ad agencies and actually nonprofit organizations as well. And I’m a certified radio marketing master. So I’ve kind of played in all mediums and I decided in 2003 to do things on my own terms. I resigned from a premier advertising agency and started my own business because I really wanted to, again, do things on my own terms, but I also had a vision to be able to work and play anywhere and I wanted. I wanted to do that on my own terms. So that That’s kind of how it started. But kind of a fun backstory is I’ve always been drawn to the written word and to marketing and advertising. And even when I was a small child growing up in very rural northern California, when we only had two television stations and a little black and white TV, I would watch Captain Kangaroo and cartoons and I critique commercials. In between the same thing. Oh my gosh, they’re so listen to, you know, people. Right? Yes. And then I started writing really bad poetry when I was a kid too, as soon as I could start writing, and that’s kind of how it segwayed through the years, I mean, even in grade school on a mimeograph machine was one of my little gal pals, we created a the first ever school newspaper, and we even had an advice column in it. So it’s kind of fun. And then I continued to just grow and learn in in the marketing and the writing arenas. In high school, I was the ads manager for our school paper, the pepper box. And I was also one of the lead reporters. So I’ve always played and you know, with words, and with marketing and advertising in some way, and then running my business out for gosh, over 17 years, which is seems really wild to me today.

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:12

Oh, I love that. Was it hard to make the leap? Was it hard to leave corporate and go out into your own into your own business?

Lisa Manyon  06:19

It was hard, because I really, I really did love the work that I was doing. But it was so fast paced, and it was just not an environment I wanted to be in anymore, right. It was really taking a toll on me and working lots of hours and basically lining someone else’s pockets. Right. My, the clients that I worked with, were fantastic. And I was really strategic about taking the leap. I didn’t just, you know, quit the day job and miraculously start a business, which is kind of a myth that people tell you you can do you have a lot of setup that needs to happen. So I actually took a job in a completely unrelated field part time while I built everything out for the new brand. And then I was ready to let that go and step into it. So that’s kind of what I would recommend for most people unless you have a lot of financing, which at the time I didn’t I bootstrapped everything.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:09

So Right. And most people do and I think you’re right, it’s it’s such a powerful point. And it’s a little bit the Gary Vaynerchuk advice of like, keep your day job, use it to finance what you’re building, right? Because I think people do get sucked into the idea like, oh, you can just take this leap. And yes, maybe depending on your network, the resources, like how much foundation you already have built. But if you don’t, you probably better build that bridge before you leap.

Lisa Manyon  07:36

Yeah, I always say it’s about having a really, really solid foundation. And when you’re starting out, there’s so many things that you need to have, I mean, you need to have your branding and image dialed and you need to have your plan and strategy dialed in, you need to have your messaging and copy dialed in. And then you need to be able to get some publicity and PR. So those are kind of the four cornerstones that I always tell people, if you’ve got those dialed in, you’re good. But if you’re only focusing on one of them, you’re not going to have that solid foundation to move forward. And of course, there’s a ton of different nuances in each of those areas, too. So it’s really not for the faint of heart. I’m not trying to discourage anyone, I’m just saying, Have a plan and work it don’t just don’t just, you know, kamikaze out there and say, Hey, I’m gonna

Heather Pearce Campbell  08:19

Right. No, I love that. Because other otherwise the alternative is that some people if they’ve got a false impression of what it takes, I think they can be hit pretty hard in the face with reality of having to build that stuff on the fly. And if you don’t have the time to do it thoughtfully, it can, it can be a big disservice. Right? 

Lisa Manyon  08:37

So, totally. And what people often don’t realize is, you know, they want to start their business because they’ve got a certain magic that they want to get out into the world. And I’m all for that. I’m like, yes, let’s make your magic. But there’s always two jobs. When you own a business, it’s making your magic and it’s marketing your magic. And the marketing piece takes a lot of time to build up and to get in place as well. And what happens is, then people get so overwhelmed with the marketing that they’re not even focusing on their magic, and they’re wondering why they started in the first place. So factor in like, are you good at that? Can you do it? Luckily, I came from that background. So I could easily navigate that. However, not everyone else has that knowledge and skill set. So I highly recommend planning that and looking and saying, Oh, maybe I need to hire someone to do that for me. Because otherwise you could be in person serious. Trial and error.

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:26

Yeah, well, and it’s such a great I mean, you saying there’s two things you need to do in your business. It’s, it’s a great reminder. And I’ve said this before, I’ve shared this little story before but there was a business conference, I went to really early on in the in the early phases of building my second business, I remember somebody from stage saying, you know, asking an audience of several 100 people, what business are you in, right? And of course, they got 100 different answers. And they were like, No, you are all in the marketing business. Right? And you just happen to be doing that in your unique niche and it’s so True. And I think we often get it backwards, right? And you’re right that if we don’t know, marketing, we don’t like, it ends up being kind of a painful journey for some people to figure that out.

Lisa Manyon  10:12

When people don’t understand, you know, I recently had a colleague say to me, Hey, I’ve got this great book, but actually multiple books that they’re not selling. And I said, one great, are you asking people to buy it? Well, I just published it, aren’t people going to buy? Like, no? Well, how often? I am like always. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:30

What? I build the thing and it doesn’t sell itself? I know.

Lisa Manyon  10:34

Yeah, but really, there’s a lot of confusion around that and how everything like every revenue stream that you have often needs its own plan and strategy. Because sometimes, there’s specific offerings that you have that are that are built for well established people who already have a team in place and can execute things. And if you were to market to someone just starting out that same service, it wouldn’t be of service to them. So you’ve got to be really careful about your messaging and your strategy and all of that fun stuff.

Heather Pearce Campbell  11:05

Absolutely. Well, and I know, even for people that do know, marketing, like you’ve got a unique take on what doesn’t work in traditional copywriting and marketing, right? Do you want to share with us why you think that some of the traditional formulas don’t work? Sure. Well,

Lisa Manyon  11:23

everything that was taught when I was first starting out was all very painpoints oriented. So when I, when I resigned from the ad agencies started my own business, I actually had a non compete as well, which is kind of a legal thing. So in my local area, I couldn’t make my magic. So I thought, well, let’s just go global. So I started studying with some of the top copywriters, and marketers out there because I wanted to expand my my toolkit I’d been doing, you know, Madison Avenue style, advertising, through an advertising agency. And so I wanted to look into direct response and all that jazz. And while everyone was teaching this pain point marketing using the problem agitate state and solve approach. And I will say that it can work. However, what happens when you poke at those pain points that kind of manipulates the sale, it’s it feels icky. And I always say if something doesn’t feel right, it’s probably not right. The other thing that I found is, that approach perpetuates buyer’s remorse, and escalates return rates and chargebacks, which is not a fun place to be. It also doesn’t necessarily support long term business sustainability. So I made some very subtle shifts in that. And instead of focusing on the pain points, and drawing people into the despair, and really agitating their angst, I focus on the passion points and painting a picture of where they want to be and how their life can be once they experience my products or services or the products and services of my clients, right? So I use the challenge solution and invitation framework where yes, we need to know the problem. But we don’t have to poke at pain points, we can meet people with empathy and understanding, and then roll into our solution, which is whatever our magic might be. And within the solution, you also want to illustrate your value proposition. And you can do that with case studies and testimonials and fun things like that, statistics, stories, anecdotes, whatever that might be. So you’re positioning yourself within your solution to be the natural choice. And by the time you get to the invitation, which is really just what it is. Often people call it a call to action. Hey, would you like to take the next step? And it makes it really seamless you can do with grace and ease. And the beauty of it is people think that marketing and sales are these difficult, strange things. It’s interesting the relationship that people have with them. They’re both all about building relationships. And this value based challenge solution invitation framework does just that. It’s meeting people where they are, again, the empathy and understanding is big. Owning your magic, being able to back it up, though, you know, it’s not like, hey, look, I’m magical. How can you? What kind of results have you given you know, what can what can you really do for me? And then, excellent, you know, illustrate that and then, hey, would you like to take the next step is just that simple. And it cracks me up? Because I think, why didn’t someone else, you know, say this before I said it, you know, and for a long time, I didn’t even step out and say it because I thought who am I? To question what everyone else is doing? Especially you know, at that time, I was starting out from like the big gurus cuz I would get on the block.

Heather Pearce Campbell  14:33

Yeah, well, it’s interesting, you say that, that piece about pain, because even when I was learning business, I remember, you know, and I can’t remember who I was learning from at the time, but I remember them saying, you’re either selling an aspirin or vitamin, right? And aspirin is gonna sell 80% of the time and the vitamin is going to sell 20% of the time and I thought, Oh, interesting. So you really do like in my head. I was thinking like, Okay, well, this is just how it works. You have to have a conversation about the pain and sell them in aspirin.

Lisa Manyon  15:03

It’s so interesting that you say that because when I first started talking about this, I posted about it on one of my social channels and a gentleman chimed in. And he was just not excited about me talking about passion points. And he’s just like going off about how I’m just kind of spouting BS and all this stuff, and that 80% of the population will move away from pain, whereas 20% will move on like, Hey, cool, I want the 20% that are tapped in and that are ready to really look at the possibilities and the passion points and do business with integrity. So bring it we’ve got a very large population 20% of that is more than enough for me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  15:38

I love I love that perspective, because one of my questions was going to be, what do you say to the people that are really firm believers, and that you have to really talk about people’s pain, because this ratio, you know, of people doing what they can to avoid pain or get out of pain? Like I wonder if it’s just part of kind of human nature, how people are wired, well,

Lisa Manyon  16:00

partially human nature and partially brainwashing, because basically, and then no, that sounds kind of harsh. But that’s basically

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:06

what it is right? Playing on those fear triggers.

Lisa Manyon  16:09

And it’s all that we’ve been taught. Even the people who are teaching pain points don’t even often realize what they’re doing. And in conversations, oh, well, what are your ideal clients pain points. So what I have to say about all of that is that it’s just not necessary, it can work. And those people who are, who don’t buy into what I’m saying, that’s cool, because it’s my truth, and they don’t have to, and I have a, I have a very different stance on overcoming objections, I think you should never overcome an objection. I think if people are not absolutely aligned with you, they shouldn’t be doing business with you. And if you have to convince them to do business with you, I don’t think any good can come of that relationship, quite frankly, for long term business sustainability. And that’s what I’m always focused on. So when people come to me and say, Well, how can I overcome these objections? And it’s usually time money, different things like that. It’s like, Look, if you have to convince someone to spend the money with you, they’re not ready to spend the money with you. And some people will say, and I’ve had coaches say this to me, well, but it might be the nudge that they need to take the lead that they need to move forward. And if it that’s great. If you want to do that you can but I’ve seen too much harm come from that kind of pressure tactic. Right. And yeah, definitely

Heather Pearce Campbell  17:18

ready. Well, I think you’re right, I think there’s a way that some people do it with very high pressure. But there are ways to, to meet somebody because I think it’s a natural part of human nature to have an objection, right, we start to step outside of our comfort zone. And then we’re like, oh, wait, you know, that, that? I think it’s an automatic trigger kick kicks in. Because I think for a lot of people, when they start to expand, it’s a natural reaction to retract again, like, oh, maybe this won’t really work for me, you know. But I think if you do it thoughtfully, where you build the information into the conversation you’re already having in a way that proactively gives them the information that they need. And it’s not done in a high pressure way, I think you can help people naturally move past their own internal blocks, but not I really hate the fake the fake pressure and the fake sales tactics where, you know, it’s like false scarcity or things like this, that really get people into fear motivated mode,

Lisa Manyon  18:16

right, and what you just said about, you know, just educating them, and then they’re ready to go, you’ve already addressed it, that’s exactly what we do in the solution piece of everything. Because when you share, you know, results and say somebody invested in you, and they’ve made, you know, twice the investment just from one small suggestion, then that that is you’re not even actually coming up against the money objection, but you’re eliminating it by sharing that it’s totally possible to make your money back by applying the techniques that are being taught or whatever it might be. So you can totally do that in a really natural way. And it doesn’t have to be. It doesn’t have to be off putting, and I think that’s where many business owners get stuck. They they’re stuck around marketing, they’re stuck around sales. And it’s just as simple as building relationships, owning your magic, sharing how it makes a difference and really connecting with people.

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:07

Yeah, well, I think there’s there’s so much there that we could unpack I was having another conversation with a friend recently, especially about what and I think it’s probably really easy for somebody like you to spot this when when people are following formulas like things are very formulaic like presentations from stage webinar formulas, you know, and you can see it totally different content, totally different person delivering and they’re following the exact same formula to get people moved from, you know, A to B to C

Lisa Manyon  19:39

feels robotic, many times, right. And that’s why I say I don’t do formulas or paint by numbers or cookie cutter things. You know, what I love about the value space challenge solution invitation framework is a framework. It’s completely customizable for your business because you’ve got to infuse your own energy into it right and if you’re following someone else’s script It can work again, I’m not saying it can’t work. And however I think the people that you really want to connect with want to connect with the real you and the truth that’s coming from your heart and soul and the heart and soul of your business.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:12

I love that. Yes. And I agree that that type of connection and while it may take a little more time, like I’ve seen people who do that well do what you’re talking about, where it’s not a high pressure sales tactic tactic, they’re really focused on helping somebody make the right decision for them or their business, right. And they care more about that, that it’s the right decision, then it’s the decision to say yes to their particular offer. And you spot the difference when you see somebody really putting forward their ideas and their solutions into the marketplace from that point of integrity and commitment to the journey of the person or the client versus just trying to get you know, 80% of the room to say Yes,

Lisa Manyon  20:55

exactly.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:57

So in addition to you know, because it because it sounds like your formula is unique, I really love the idea of the invitation. I think that like it just feels so much better. Right? Talk to us a little bit about that piece, like the imitation piece.

Lisa Manyon  21:12

Yeah, you know, well, so many people in in marketing, especially direct sales are very hard sell, and even call to action. It’s a standard term, and it works. But the invitation is just so much friendlier, because there’s also no risk with an invitation, right? And this is what I always tell people who are afraid to ask, you’re no better off or no worse off. If someone says no, if you don’t ask, you’re going to stay stuck. But being able to invite is so crucial, crucial. And when again, when you’ve already laid that foundation by sharing, you know, acknowledging a challenge with empathy and understanding and then sharing how you can help and then just say, Would you like to play? It can be that simple. It doesn’t have to be by now or if you don’t make a decision in the next 60 seconds. I can never talk to you about this again, kind of thing. Right? Which feels so gross. It does

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:04

feel gross. Yeah. And even the word invitation if it feels easier, it feels like I anticipated that it would feel like something that somebody who’s not real comfortable with sales or traditional marketing or any of that, that they could ease themselves into the place of being like, oh, yeah, an invitation actually feels nice to give. And the Recipient feels nice to receive compared to what a lot of people get in the marketplace.

Lisa Manyon  22:30

It’s so true. And just the energy of words, which I love getting into. I mean, we could probably talk about that for hours. But the energy of an invitation is beautiful like that. Whereas the knowing you have to make an app or make a sale or include a call to action, then the fear comes up and many people are like, Oh my gosh, but I can’t sell or I can’t do that. Well, you don’t really have to do any of that. You just have to be you. Stand behind your brand. Be really confident what you have to offer, showcase your results, and extend that friendly invitation and will make it so much easier, I promise.

Heather Pearce Campbell  23:04

Okay, let’s take a pause and hear briefly from today’s sponsor. Today’s sponsor is Melanie Benson, the Authority Amplifier. Melanie is also the host of the Amplify Your Success Podcast. She can be found online at melaniebenson.com. Melanie’s superpower is helping entrepreneurs like you identify and activate their own unique positioning to become the highly paid authority that their ideal client knows likes and trust. After spending 21 years guiding talented entrepreneurs to success and 15 years in Fortune 500 companies, Melanie brings a unique integration of proven success, business acumen and soulful intuition to each client. Clients who work her AMPLIFY roadmap can see a 5x growth within the first 90 days. You can find out about the AMPLIFY roadmap and more at Melanie benson.com. She has an amazing array of free tools and additional resources that will help you in building and scaling your business quickly creating Magnetic Messaging and attracting exactly the right client. If you visit Melanie benson.com, you currently get access to 10 revenue rush strategies, where you can discover the 10 fastest ways to quickly increase cash flow and develop a more profitable business. This is a tool that has worked for almost 5000 clients already. Again, visit Melanie benson.com. And now back to today’s amazing guest well and the thing that I love even about that word invitation and the thought like the way that you just expressed that and the thought thoughtfulness that goes into being careful with are words like I have a friend who, in the JV space, he teaches people how to create successful joint ventures, right. And he’s very different compared to other people in the space that teach you this stuff. But he says, like, I don’t let people do a JV pitch, and I teach them. That’s not what they’re here to do when we teach people how to participate in the process the right way. It’s an invitation. And it’s an invitation that also says all go first, like he, he sets it up beautifully. But there’s a lot of thought even in the words that he uses and the way that he teaches people in his community to use certain words and totally stay away from others. And so I love that even you know, and especially in the copywriting and marketing world, we have to be very, very intentional with our words,

Lisa Manyon  25:45

We do because really, our words are honor. And so think about that, you know, when people started before I even named my my framework, which is another story in and of itself. I was just doing it intuitively. And people were coming to me and they were saying, Lisa, I don’t understand I’ve hired this big copywriter, or the sales coach or whatever, and got all the pain points mapped out, nobody’s buying, and I take a look at it with them. And I say, okay, cool. So what, what formula are you using here? And of course, it was problem agitate and solve and like, Well, how do you feel about these pain points when you read them, and they would stop and realize, oh, my gosh, this isn’t even in alignment with my values, I’m doing something that would completely turn me off. So no wonder my ideal clients are turned off. And this isn’t actually working. So just some small shifts could make really big impact. But that’s when I knew I was really on to something because I had hundreds of hundreds of people coming my way and saying, Can you help us do whatever this is that you’re doing? And so funny, because at that point, I hadn’t even named it yet. And once I named it, and people could wrap their minds around the framework, they’re like, oh, that’s what you’re doing brilliant that we could do that. Right.

Heather Pearce Campbell  26:48

It’s so helpful. Well, and I think it’s such a powerful reminder, regardless of the industry that we are in each of us are in to really pay careful attention to industry lingo, industry speak like an example comes to mind, I used to be a photographer, and it bothered me to no end that photographers would call, like a portrait session, a shoot, like, Oh, I’ve got a shoot scheduled for whatever and use that language their clients like, it just felt. So like, really, you have a shoot, like versus, you know, a portrait creation session, or whatever else you wanted to call it. And I just remember, like, thinking we have to be so careful industry to industry, what we adopt as our own if it really doesn’t fit for us, or doesn’t serve our business, or really mesh well with our clients. And so being very cognizant of that, I think is super important.

Lisa Manyon  27:42

It’s so true. It’s funny, because I was working with a client that was launching new things, but they always wanted to say in their content, we’re launching this. So people don’t care. They just want to know what it’s gonna do for you. They don’t care that it’s a big launch. So big launch is this internal thing that we’re all doing and dealing with. But you know, the person reading the content does not care, they want to know what’s in it for them, how it’s going to help them to stop that like, announcing our big watch. Who cares? What’s it going to do for me? So that was one of my pet peeves that’s like don’t use that language. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:14

No, it’s so true. That’s a great example. Like you have to remember who you’re talking with. And while it might be appropriate to say, launch with your JV partner, right, really is irrelevant to the end consumer.

Lisa Manyon  28:26

Exactly. And I think we get so close to our own businesses and our own industry jargon, that it’s easy to, you know, share things and not even think about it. And that’s happened even with the pain point stuff. You know, I hear people who are who are very conscious in theory, and they’re just without a second thought, because it’s kind of become second nature. They’ll just say, Well, what’s your client’s pain point? And they just use it in a conversation like it’s, you know, something that should be in an everyday conversation, which, of course, I don’t think it should be. And so it drives me insane when I when I watch people doing that, because they don’t even realize that they’ve been so conditioned to think that that’s the only way to do things. And when people have made the shift from the pain points to the passion points. It’s amazing the difference in how they naturally attract and draw through their messenger.

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:16

Yeah, no, I love that. Well, and I would imagine that for somebody that is connecting with a message about a passion point, where you can be versus where you are, that those people are going to be more inherently motivated to actually continue with the support or the service or actually have it do some good in their life versus just temporarily wanting to get away from pain.

Lisa Manyon  29:39

Exactly. Yeah, that’s why I always go back to long term sustainability. It’s completely possible. Yeah, and I’m still rolling after 17 years forth. I evolved and we all do, but that’s great. Everyone has the opportunity to to try this and see how it works.

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:55

Mm hmm. I love that well, and I know we’ve spent a lot of time around, copy and language I, you know, in addition to copy, which is on a lot of people’s mind, I mean, we’re in the midst of COVID. We’re all online, we’re developing websites or new landing pages, you know, to mean, there’s a lot that’s happening involving copy. What else though do people need to have in place to market effectively?

Lisa Manyon  30:19

The strategy hands down, I always say two things will never go out of style, your message and your strategy. And you can pivot in any climate in any, any arena, when you’re very clear on both of those things, right. And your strategy may change. And and I’m really always very clear, and your messaging may evolve, as well, typically does as we grow and evolve as people and our clients grow and evolve. But when you’re really clear and solid in what you’re sharing, and you’ve got that strategy in place, you’re unstoppable. The key is to put that plan in place, and to work it and to test and measure and monitor and make sure that it’s working for you as well, that so many people forget that part. You know, they just see, oh, my gosh, I need to put a website up, for example. And they do that. But then they’re surprised that they’re not getting traffic. Well, okay, how are you going to drive traffic? are you blogging to do to get organic reach? Or are you doing Pay Per Click ads are what are you doing to get people there? So people miss that. I’m still amazed at how many people miss especially even just going back to websites, again, you’ve got an overall site strategy and an individual page strategy. And so many people miss the invitation on each of those individual pages. And you go there, and you’re reading about all these wonderful things, and there’s no invitation, it’s like, great, they’re just gonna disappear and go back into the abyss. So there’s, there’s really, I can’t stress enough how important having a really clear plan and strategy in places.

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:45

Now it sounds like for literally every piece of what you’re building, knowing where it fits, knowing what is happening, what the next step is for your website visitor or your client. What gets in the way of people being able to create successful strategies, is it just so overwhelming that they don’t start? Are they getting the wrong advice? Like what do you see when it comes to people really being thoughtful about their websites and the flow and the strategy that should support all of that?

Lisa Manyon  32:15

All of the above, but especially overwhelmed? Yeah, I think I think people get so single focus. I mean, I know when people come by way for help with their websites from scratch, which is always a good thing. Unfortunately, a lot of people come my way after they’ve worked with others. And they’re like, Look, don’t worry, I do it. And I’m like, okay, we can do that, too. But they’re just overwhelmed. Because first of all, you’ve got to choose your web designer, are you going to do specialty coding? Do you need a coder? Do you know how to do it yourself? Are you gonna hire that out? Who’s gonna write your copy? You know, what do you want to cover? Well,

Heather Pearce Campbell  32:48

Just hearing this is overwhelming, right? 

Lisa Manyon  32:50

What are you doing e commerce? Are you? Are you not gonna do e commerce? What you know, like, is it gonna be a landing page? Is it gonna be a full site? Like, there’s so many pieces. So right there, no wonder people get overwhelmed, which is why I just like to step step them through it and walk them through it and have a whole process for that, too. But, you know, with everything, and you touched on this, we have to have a plan and strategy for everything for not over our not only our entire business brand, but our individual products and services.

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:16

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I could also see where, you know, especially with an online strategy to connect all the dots, people are thinking like, Okay, I have to have somebody help me write my copy, that’s probably different than who’s building out the site. You know, it’s like being a project manager right on a project.

Lisa Manyon  33:37

It really is. Yeah. And some people, you know, I use the example of, you know, the websites up and nobody’s coming to it, because you’re not driving traffic. But the same thing happens when people build courses and do different things like that. They’re like, Okay, I built this great course, now, I’m going to make a ton of sales, not unless you create the joint venture partnerships, yes. Or, you know, have built your platform and already have a community of people often people will call that your email list. I like to call it a community because people are not numbers. They’re actually people. And so, yeah, there, there’s just a lot of different layers. And I don’t want that to detour anyone, you know, like, definitely do it. But give it some serious thought and consideration and make sure you have that plan in place and make sure that you’re making the right choices, too. I mean, I think that’s something that we would both agree on. Do your due diligence. Yes, look at testimonials on the website, but see if you can talk to a couple of those clients, you know, but don’t just take everything at face value. I’ve done that before and lost lots of money because I was like, Oh, this sounds great. This person looks like they’ve got great testimonials. They can help me with this thing. And 1000s of dollars later, they couldn’t actually help me with that thing. So

Heather Pearce Campbell  34:42

Good point. Really, your due diligence before you hire? Yeah, because it’s expensive. I mean, having a website redesign or working with somebody like at your level of copywriting and marketing to the folks who have already built out some stuff online right. So the portion of our audience who Are you know, they’ve been in business long enough? They know what they’re doing they, but they’re hearing you now and going, oh my gosh, I haven’t approached each of my pages with this level of thoughtfulness. What do you say to those folks? Like, where did they start and reevaluating what they already have, you know, trying to figure out either how to improve it, how to revamp it? Yeah.

Lisa Manyon  35:20

Well, I mean, of course, they can always work with me. However, they could also just take a look at okay, what’s my overall site strategy? Visit each of your pages? What is the strategy for each page? Like, for example, the about pages where I see missing opportunities the most?

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:34

So it’s one of the most visited pages, right?

Lisa Manyon  35:37

Well, it is. And so without an invitation on it, you’re losing people left and right. So think about what you really want people to do when they visit your about page, do you want them to book you for a speaking engagement, then make sure there’s a form or your number or something, ask them to do that, because they’re not just going to read how wonderful you are, and think, Oh, I think this person needs to be on my stage, or my show, or my podcast, or whatever it might be. Or you might want them to book a specific session with you ask for that as well. And people, people are reluctant to do that. I think it’s still because of that fear around sales and the app, but it’s just an invitation. And if we don’t invite them, they’re never gonna take that action. So I wouldn’t say never, but it’s gonna take them a lot longer. So just ask invite.

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:22

I love that that’s such a gem. I mean, we don’t get anywhere without asking. And I agree. Like, we have to remember that we literally have to make it so simple for people to follow the breadcrumbs. Otherwise, there’s so much that gets in the way. I mean, you know, you lose their attention for a second, or they hop over to one of your other pages, like, making it so simple for them to take that next step, I think is really critical. Yeah. So I know that your approach and your philosophies when it comes to copywriting and marketing have gotten quite a bit of attention. Talk to us about how that got started?

Lisa Manyon  36:59

Well, this is this is a fun story, because I remember I was saying that I hadn’t named it for a very long time. And I was featured on the cover of Aspire magazine many years ago. And so the editors publisher said, Well, Lisa, I also need you to write something about your, you know, your philosophy on what you’re doing. And I was like, okay, you know, because I’ve just been doing it intuitively. But that’s what I named it, I was like, Oh, it really is the challenge solution invitation framework. It’s just what I have been doing all off. But I have to tell you the importance of naming it and claiming it is incredible, because then people were able to grasp that and understand, okay, that’s what she’s doing. So it really took on a life of its own once it was named, because then I was featured in Ink Magazine, and multiple number one best selling books. I haven’t completed mine yet, but that’s in the works. And people just reached out to me and said, gosh, we love what you’re doing. Can we feature you in our books, I’m like, sure, because they’re all number one bestsellers. And that just gives me additional exposure. So you know, being the marketer I am, of course, I jumped on those opportunities. So my point with all of this is not to really talk too much about, you know, my accolades and all that, but, but more to say, when you name it and claim it, it really does make a difference. And you can be working your magic for a very long time. But when you put in an type of framework that people can fully understand, you’re going to get a lot more traction.

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:22

Oh, that I mean, that is, I think, a huge takeaway from this whole conversation. If other people don’t do anything else. I think understanding the importance of what you’ve just said cannot be underrated, because you’re right. It’s the difference between somebody like continuing to do great work with their clients, but starting to get attention for it having people actually have that brand recognition. And you know, the the ability to point an arrow at a system or something that has a label, or has a name is so much easier once you’ve created that.

Lisa Manyon  38:57

It totally is I mean, it’s how I got on the stage at the California women’s conference by winning the people’s choice award, you know, it was in engaging people with the philosophies on the website, and I got more engagement than anyone else. And then they invited me to speak about it. So it’s like, that’s so fantastic. It really, it just shows you how when you own it, and you’re really coming from that place of true values and service that the sky really is the limit, but have your plan and strategy in place. And be very clear on your message. But again, your message will evolve. So if people are listening, and they haven’t quite named what they’re doing, if they’ve got a process or whatever that is, it’ll happen. But just know that keep in mind that it will catapult things more quickly once you do that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  39:43

Totally, totally. Well. And I remember doing that to a piece. I do a lot of upfront education, right. My goal is and I tell people to break the black box legal model so that entrepreneurs can begin to understand the legal framework that they’re operating. Eating in and make a decision about their legal needs from a place of empowerment, not from a place of fear, not from a place of being pushed into it, because their business coach is telling them something, or they heard through the grapevine that they need to be doing x instead of y. And if they have the whole map, then they can see where they’re at on that map and go, Oh, here’s why it makes sense for me to do this step next, right? I finally put a label to that framework, I put things in buckets, I really categorize them. And I remember doing that presentation at a friend’s event, which was a very high level mastermind. And, you know, he’s come back to me numerous times. And been, like, will you present that system, that framework again, like this group of people need it, and but it was so much more memorable when I put it in a container? 

Lisa Manyon  40:46

It really is. It’s, it’s mind blowing, honestly. And it simply does take on a life of its own. It’s wild. And so from there, you know, I continue to be invited on podcasts like this one, and I’m delighted to be here. And it’s because two things will never go out of style, your message and your strategy. So you know, dial that in and keep at it, and anyone can achieve success. I totally believe that.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:10

I love that. Well, and so Lisa, for folks that are listening, where do you like to connect? If somebody wants to find you online? Check out your work, look at more of your tips. I mean, you’re obviously a wealth of knowledge in this area, where would you like to direct people to,

Lisa Manyon  41:25

I would love for them to go to my website, which is writeoncreative.com as if you’re writing w-r-i-t-e writeoncreative.com. And there’s all kinds of information out there free resources on my blog, I still offer my copywriting action plan to help people apply the challenge solution invitation framework, plus, learn seven pro tips to improve their content, which is really helpful. I’ve been told I should be selling it but I’m giving it away. As long as you trust me with your email address, and I promise you, I will only send you relevant tips and resources. And then also when people join the right on Create creative community, which is what happens when you trust me with your email address. You can schedule a 15 minutes complimentary get connected, call with me to see if to see if we are a good fit if there’s something I can help you with. And of course, you get the copywriting action plan. And there’s a section on my blog called The ask Lisa section. So if you just have a quick question, submit it and often I’ll turn that into a blog post because everyone’s questions. The answers help everyone Yeah, so I’d love that. That’s really fun. That’s a great way to engage.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:31

Oh, wow. So many great resources. So if you’re still listening, be sure to visit Lisa you can find this link and others to connect with her on social media at the show notes page, which is www.legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Lisa, it’s been such a joy to have you here. Before we go, one last question. What either action steps or takeaways do you want our listeners to have today?

Lisa Manyon  42:56

I think just the best advice is to be true to you. If something doesn’t feel right, it’s probably not right. It’s totally okay to you know, question everything, break the trance, challenge the status quo and engage critical thinking and do things on your own terms.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:14

That is Yeah, mic drop, folks. You heard it here. I love that. If it does not fit, it doesn’t fit and pay attention to those signals. And I love that you are here in the marketplace, helping people really connect with their authentic mission and voice and do things in a way that really feels in alignment with their values. So important.

Lisa Manyon  43:35

It really is thank you for having me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:37

Oh, it’s been great to have you Lisa. Take good care. Again, thank you for joining us  today and I hope to connect again very soon.

GGGB Outro  43:48

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you’re doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.