With Amber Hawley, a licensed therapist, multiple biz owner and former tech industry drop out who works with high-achieving, easily distracted entrepreneurs with mindset & strategies to stop suffering for success. As host of the Easily Distracted Entrepreneur podcast, she supports ADHD {and ADHD-ish} business owners who live in Distraction City to overcome shiny object syndrome.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • Having a hard time focusing, getting things done is a symptom of “modern entrepreneurship” according to Amber.
  • “I dropped the ball, now how do I figure it out and move forward?”

Check out these highlights:

  • 4:33 “modern entrepreneurship keeps us constantly distracted.”
  • 17:28 Amber’s journey with ADHD
  • 24:37 Why Amber says it’s all about “understanding how your brain works and then adjusting how you approach things.”
  • 28:11 What does ADHD and ADHDish look like for business owners?
  • 31:08 Why you NEED support systems in your business.
  • 44:40 Why Amber says “you are never going to prioritize those things in your business that are challenging to you”- because we make them much bigger than they are.
  • 55:38 The process of recognizing burnout.

How to get in touch with Amber:

On social media:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mybizbestie

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/itsamberhawley/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq6RYdSVtbEOpzomog4OUCg?view_as=subscriber

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amberhawley/

Learn more about Amber here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro 0:00
Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™…

Amber Hawley 0:02
Money is an emotional issue. Like it’s not usually the numbers you can add, you can subtract, but there’s a lot, like you said, of emotional content that gets triggered in like wrapped up in money and how we approach it and all of that. And so it’s really, really hard. And then if you add in any, any ability of, or any part of impulsiveness, or, you know, like you said, I just like, I just need this off my plate because I can’t stand it anymore. And you hire somebody without following through, you know, managing them, you know, any of that stuff, and then it just ends up, you know, kind of screwing you and putting you in a worse position.

GGGB Intro 0:41
The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:13
Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington and serving entrepreneurs throughout the US and around the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™ I am so excited for our guests today. This is a topic that is first of all near and dear to my heart but I think a lot closer to all of us than it was before the pen. You’ll understand why when I introduce you number here in just a second. But Amber was introduced to me through my friend Julie who helps place people on podcasts and I just I’m a fan of Julie so anybody that Julie sends me when she tells me they’re going to be a fit I’m like yes, but Amber I love. I loved reading about Amber’s work and getting to know her through her online presence. If you don’t know Amber Amber Hawley is a licensed therapist, multiple business owner and former tech industry dropout, who works with high achieving easily distracted entrepreneurs with mindset and strategies to stop suffering for success. as host of The easily distracted entrepreneur podcast. She supports ADHD and ADHD ish business owners who live in distraction city to overcome shiny object syndrome. Oh my gosh, and Amber’s on the east coast. So she’s with us in her evening hours. I’m like, nearing the end of my day. But, Amber, thank you for joining me. So good to have you.

Amber Hawley 2:46
Thank you for having me. I feel like the way you read that I was like, I sound impressive. Like I need you to read that for me more often. I think.

Heather Pearce Campbell 2:58
I love it. I could I could turn on my Canadian accent for you.

Amber Hawley 3:01
I know. I understand why people say that to you now.

Heather Pearce Campbell 3:08
No, but on the topic of ADHD, right, this is I mean, and we were chatting actually right before we went live, I’ve got a son with ADHD, I, you know, have other people in my life with ADHD. I feel like I have ADHD. Now whether I do or not. It’s the struggle for me of COVID is like so many parents of little people trying to work essentially a full time job and parent to children full time and be their teacher and do all the other things that you know, keep a household and a life going. And there were so like, what did what did they call it the the context switching, there was so much context switching throughout, you know, the last 18 months, 20 months, whatever, 189 months, it’s been so many months, that I would literally get to the end of my days feeling like my brain was scrambled eggs. And I’ve said this more than once on the podcast like it caused so much dysfunction for me inter internally and energetically. So it’s a really important topic. I think a lot of people, you know, whether they are impacted directly whether they know somebody with ADHD, but for sure entrepreneurs that are in the boat of dealing with ADHD or feeling like they have ADHD because of the nature of entrepreneurship, right. There’s like layers on layers on layers. So, so welcome. We’re here for it. All.

Amber Hawley 4:33
Right. I know, you know, the thing is, you know, I say like, I help people, you know, as being a therapist, as well. It’s like, I help with the emotional side of business. And here’s the thing. Modern entrepreneurship, I think already leads us towards a place of constantly being distracted. You know, there’s so much being thrown at us and Having to keep our attention and take care of all the things you know. But like you said, having the pandemic happen and, and all of our normal norms went out the window. Most people are feeling that whether or not they’re actually ADHD. And that’s why I say ADHD ish, because in my experience, a lot of people who actually have ADHD don’t know it, or they’re in that place where they’re like, I just feel so scattered. I feel like it’s so hard to focus, I feel it’s just hard to get the things done that are important to me. And which I think is, again, a symptom of modern entrepreneurship. So, I mean, I’m working with people where I’ve even had people come into my membership, that’s, you know, for ADHD ish people. And they say, I 100% do not have ADHD, but I need some accountability and support because I am going crazy, right? Well, it’s, you’re not alone.

Heather Pearce Campbell 5:53
Totally. And you know, even one of the things that I speak on because I’m I live on the legal side of the equation, right, and I’m an attorney, I help people with the legal side of their business. But I’m, I’m here for all of the parts of the entrepreneurship journey. And I just am enamored generally with entrepreneurs with what it takes to build a thriving business with what it takes to create a successful business and a successful life. And just really love supporting people with mindset, with endurance with, you know, bringing fabulous guests on like yourself that can speak to specific strategies. But one of the things I teach is that like legal, you know, when somebody signs up to start a business or launch something on their own, they’re not necessarily thinking of the fact that they have to learn ABC XYZ, right. They’re, they’re a technician, they want to do a very specific thing in the world, they just want to serve people, usually, they just want to serve the heck out of people. And instead, what they end up having to do is learn marketing and sales and information technology and business systems and, and legal, like all this stuff that applies to their particular business. And that’s what I’m talking about where you layer on. And, you know, like you were mentioning, whether you’re ADHD or not, that path of entrepreneurship can bring so much with it, that you end up feeling that way, because it’s so many balls in the air, so many things to juggle, right categories, as well as functions just the day to day tasks of, of what it takes to really build even a small business and do that. Well.

Amber Hawley 7:29
Exactly. And I think, you know, like you’re saying, those are really specified skill sets, like when you think about legal or finance, or marketing, or sales, or social media, I mean, you know, anything, we’re out, we can outsource or hire people to do, of course, but it’s all of those pieces. And we expect ourselves to be able to catch everything and do it well. And we’re supposed to bootstrap it and, you know, like, be on top of everything. And it’s just not realistic. And, you know, it’s especially hard. I think, in the beginning, sometimes it’s okay, because you might not even know what you don’t know, like, you might not even realize, Oh, I’m supposed to take care of that or do this thing, or, you know, you find out about it later. But then you get to that point where as you’re growing your business, I think that’s when you’re like, Okay, now I need to actually start outsourcing and investing in other people, because it’s not realistic. You know, if you think about that classic book E Myth revisited, where he talks about, you know, where, you know, he talks about technicians, because he said that

Heather Pearce Campbell 8:30
totally, totally Michael Gerber speak, right?

Amber Hawley 8:33
I know. Exactly, which I love. And, and it’s such a great book, because it really talks about that core struggle of, you know, working on your business versus in your business. And so you eventually have to kind of be in that outside place where you’re working on it instead of in it as the technician. But then even then people think, well, now I’m not being the technician, but somehow I must, you know, be a lawyer and a CPA, and, you know, all the things right? And it’s like, no, it’s it’s, it’s impossible,

Heather Pearce Campbell 9:05
Yeah, it’s impossible. You have to know enough to be able to at least, you know, within a reasonable range, assess your needs, so that your strategic and what you’re hiring for, because I think the other mistake that people make is just wanting to offload portions of their business that they really need to lead. Like you have to lead your business and you have to lead different segments and portions of your business and you can’t do that without information without knowledge without understanding it well enough to lead it even if you’re not doing it yourself. Right. So for example, good point, you know, like Internet Information Technology, right tech, how many people just would rather not deal with tech at all, but I’ve had the horrendous of experience of hiring it out. And you know, paying somebody quite a bit of money only to have that totally go sideways or wrong or not be the thing at all that they thought it was going to be. So it’s you know, and I think there’s lots of examples of that across, you know, multiple areas of business. But it’s the thing about you have to know enough to know how to hire for and lead that section of your business, even if you’re not doing it yourself.

Amber Hawley 10:16
Yeah. And I think you know, that that’s the part that makes it manageable. I agree you, in order to vet people properly, you really do need some insight or some basic understanding, understanding, because yeah, I’ve seen that where people just get raked over the coals and like completely overcharged for something. And like you said, it might not even been the right best thing for them, or it didn’t. They didn’t do what, what they were supposed to. And so that’s the hard piece. And then that feeling about overwhelm of, well, I’ve got to know more and finding that boundary of where’s the line of educating myself enough, but then not having to feel like I have to be so immersed in it to make decisions. I think that’s the hard balance to you know, the that line to walk,

Heather Pearce Campbell 11:00
Yeah, well, it’s an in this space. And you can talk to us a little bit. I’m curious, you know, specifically, what kinds of entrepreneurs you serve. I imagine our worlds overlap quite a bit. I mostly the folks that listen to this podcast are probably going to be in what I call the information entrepreneur, space coaches, consultants, online educators, speakers, authors, you know, they’re, they’re primarily building service based businesses around bodies of information and bodies of work that they’ve created. Right?

Amber Hawley 11:30
Yeah. And I would say, that’s a majority of my clients as well, like, I do have some people that are that have done like products, some product stuff, or like bones or something like that. But yeah, for the most part, it’s in that service industry. And yeah, so working with those with those people, I work with both men and women, but But uh, you know, I think speaking to a lot of women, especially as a mom, and somebody who has multiple businesses, I think there’s a lot of, like, understanding and yeah, working with that.

Heather Pearce Campbell 12:02
Yeah, well, and it’s, it’s an, you know, for the, for anybody that is in the small business category, and especially information entrepreneurs, if they’re starting off as solos may, you know, they might build up to small teams, most of the folks that I support are building what I call lifestyle businesses, they’re not trying to create the next Google, you know, they’re not going to create even a startup where they’re going to spin it off and try to make 50 or 100 million dollars in five years or whatever, right? That those tends not to be the folks that I’m talking to. And it’s and the challenge of being a small entrepreneur, or being a solo and trying to build a small business that affords you an avenue to essentially fulfill your mission and your purpose in the world through your work, right. Because a lot of people that I serve I categorize as very mission driven, conscientious entrepreneurs, is that you have to keep learning like you don’t have, you don’t have an in house team to handle all of this for you. And so from a business leadership perspective, you do have an uphill battle, and that you have to learn what you need really quickly in order to grow and scale at a pace that makes your business sustainable. And that’s where the danger of like offloading are, like offloading our decision making on to, you know, quote, unquote, an expert, or guru or somebody else who’s like, Oh, here’s how you should do it. I’m always really clear with my clients, even when they go to hire other professional services, like you are the one that needs to decide very clearly where this fits for you. Like, you cannot expect other people to make that decision for your business, you can get guidance on it, but you ultimately have to be responsible for that decision. So anyways, back to the point and why you are here to talk to us today. The struggle is real, this challenge of having to do so much as entrepreneurs, you know, in our work, and particularly those that do have ADHD. I’m really curious about your roots. Obviously, you’re a therapist. So talk to me about how you got started in the therapy world. What drew you in that direction?

Amber Hawley 14:17
Yeah, I think, you know, it’s funny growing up, I remember, I remember like thinking I either want to be a lawyer or a psychologist, and it was these two things because there’s part of me that, you know, I loved learning and I love like figuring out how people work and, you know, going through that process, so I was kind of in those two places. And then you know, like many people it was like, and then I started doing other things. I actually ended up moving to California from Minnesota when I was 21. And then I started working in marketing so I had done previously like different things, you know, retail and nannying and all that kind of stuff but I went into marketing, and did really well there and kind of grew and kept, you know, kept getting promotions or different things. And so then I was in I did like marketing operations, internet operations and marketing. And I just like naturally technology came to me. So you know, it just did really well. But I remember and I jokingly say, I had my existential crisis, you know, like most 26 year olds do. Where I was like, What is the point of my work? And, you know, this was after, it was kind of the heyday of the.com. But we’d already gone through one little, like, tiny crash. And so, you know, I was just like, if at the end of the day, like, if the world ended, you know, what is the meaning of my work? And so I just was in this place. So then I started, you know, I went to therapy myself, and started going through that process and realize, like, Yeah, this is what it is, cuz I felt, I felt like I was like, I hate people. I can’t stand them. They make me crazy. And it was like, No, I don’t actually hate people. I hated working in corporate, when all of this like all these directors, it felt like there were 100 million directors. And just feeling like I had these people who didn’t know what they were doing, telling me what to do. And I couldn’t handle that. I’m a little bit of a Virgo type A. So I was like, This is crap. And I realized I liked connecting with people one on one, it wasn’t I don’t hate people, I do love people. But I just wanted to connect with people one on one. And frankly, everyone is always told me their life story, I can be at a gas pump. And people tell me that. So it’s like, Well, Don, I should go into business. Or I mean, I should make this my life’s work and connect with people. And then the funny thing is, after I became a therapist and started my private practice, and then and then started it as a group practice, so I hired other therapists to work for me and running all of that. It was like, I went back to my roots in a way. So it was like this full circle of Dan, I started loving, like talking about marketing and business and growth and technology. And so it’s like, I got to marry both of the world. So that’s when I started, you know, my online business, and the podcast. And I was like, Oh, I get to do the thing that I love and connect with people and support people, and talk about business and marketing. Like, what’s better than that?

Heather Pearce Campbell 17:20
I love Where does your love of business and marketing come from? Um,

Amber Hawley 17:28
I think I love I think a little bit. I did love that when I started in the.com world, because I love learning new technology. I loved learning things. I wouldn’t say like I love being on the cutting edge because sometimes I can be a little curmudgeon II but but you know, I’m like, let’s kick it old. Like who it doesn’t need to be. I’m not all about the new, new new, but I think it was just that idea of these are opportunities for us to connect to people and to grow our businesses and have this lifestyle that you want, like you said, the lifestyle entrepreneurship thing. And, and do it, you know, talking about something that I have a passion about? I don’t know is it I just found because my my group practice is in Silicon Valley. So I was seeing a lot of like professionals like, you know, cc C suite execs, lawyers, doctors, but also a lot of entrepreneurs and like C CEO, startup people, as in my therapy practice, and I we I only worked with individual adults and couples that was my specialty. And that’s where I started like seeing a lot of ADHD. And then I didn’t get diagnosed until I was 41 with ADHD, I didn’t realize that was what was going on. Like, this happens to a lot of people, especially women, because like the the way our ADHD shows up, it doesn’t interfere or disrupt school. Yeah, we tend not to get noticed until later. And especially if you’re someone like me, like my type of ADHD is considered over focused. So I had great coping mechanisms to make sure that I minimally dropped balls. I mean, I still did it. Don’t get me wrong. But and then eventually, though, as your bandwidth shrinks, like those coping mechanisms just don’t work anymore, right? For somebody with ADHD and now we have two ADHD kids, I my third, I just don’t know yet. So I have three kids, but I like the two for sure.

Heather Pearce Campbell 19:28
Oh my gosh, well, when you start looking, I feel like it’s everywhere. I you know, my husband is definitely in the ADHD camp. My son has ADHD now I’m wondering about myself, you sit over focus, and I’m like ding ding, ding. I can really like, like last part of you know, COVID and 18 months that I talked about being so miserable, this forced context switching just like oh my gosh, it you know, I have no words and the words that I do have for it are really bad words, but the The struggle for me is I can focus really intensely to the point where my husband’s like, we’re talking to you. And you don’t even know we’re here, or you’re responding and you don’t even know you’re responding. And I’m like, oh, yeah, that sounds bad. And I apparently have done that quite quite a few times to my family and kids. And it’s like a joke. So I’ve wondered, and I think partly being in a household with other ADHD like with a son, and like, there’s part of me that’s like, oh, my gosh, whether I want to or not, I’m now ADHD. For adults that are like moi aren’t like, like, what, tell us a little bit if you’re willing to share, like about your own journey figuring out at age 41? Because I think there’s quite a few people in that camp. I mean, I yeah, I’m in my mid 40s. I think a lot of kids went undiagnosed with things that they know a lot more about these days. And, you know, and there’s a lot more support in place for certain things for children these days, it’s still not always easy to get it and find it, but it is there. And, but I think a lot of folks are in the camp of finding out only in their, you know, 30s or 40s, or adult life about certain things.

Amber Hawley 21:13
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I will say what we see in like, the therapy world is, you know, maybe a parent brings in their kid to therapy, because they’ve been identified by the school, right? And, and then their kid gets diagnosed, and then they start going, huh, like, I do that, too. Like, there’s these common behaviors that you start to see, right? Um, so there’s that and that that does happen, or in like, in my case, I was going through a terrible about a burnout. I had just my son had a terrible accident, he is fine. But he had a terrible, terrible drowning accident. And after that, like, my bandwidth was just so like, low and I couldn’t I, I just felt like I wasn’t functioning, you know, it was becoming so stressful because I couldn’t function at the same level, like, the things I used to be able to do and rally for. I just couldn’t do it. And I let you know, huge things drop, and I’m the primary breadwinner. So like, I needed to make, you know, and living in California, like financially, there was a lot of stress and expectation there. So it was really hard. But I do want to caveat to say, sometimes, though, like, again, if, when our kids were, you know, home, actually, like trying to school from home, everyone feels ADHD, because there’s that is not the optimum way for us to function as human beings. So it may not be an ADHD thing, it might just be that you were living in chaos, and you know, all of this stuff like, and it’s so hard because if you’re trying to focus and you’re constantly being interrupted, it’s going to look like you can’t get anything done, right. Like that’s just part of it. But to going back to kind of like my story. So it was really funny, because I had started seeing my therapist again, because after my son’s accident, and I remember, like, I was talking to her, and actually, it was my girlfriend, too. So my girlfriend that I had met, she started going to couples therapy and found out that she had ADHD, and then told me so then I mentioned it to my therapist who’s like, I actually think you might have it. So then I go to my friends at a networking because it was all therapist, right? And we’re, we knew each other really well. We met every month for lunch, and we knew each other really well. And I mentioned it and they all go da and I’m like, Oh my God, oh me. I know, I was like, all these years, I thought, I kept seeing all these things. And I thought they were like negative personality traits, like I saw the very negative way. And it was like causing all of this pain and disruption in my life. And I say that like understanding, I was also very successful. So it’s like, I’m very type A I’m gogogo Gen Xers so you know that whole like, you die thing, and, like make your life miserable. But it was so I have all that going. But then I would do these things where I’d be like, What is wrong with me and I made it so painful. And I just couldn’t figure out like, Why can’t and this is something I hear a lot of people say a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of people I’ve worked with where they’re like, if I just did it better, they may say different words, but if I just did it better than I wouldn’t let this ball drop or I, I would have been able to catch this or I wouldn’t have made that mistake. And it’s like, know, when you understand your brain works differently. So it’s not about doing it better. It’s about understanding how your brain works and then adjusting how you approach things. You know, your expectations, all of that. And you know, it is estimated that 40% of entrepreneurs likely have ADHD and for the prize to me like it’s no surprise one there’s a lot of traits there’s a lot of positives to having ADHD, right? We can be risk takers. We’re very creative. We think outside the box, like and like you said, the hyper focusing hyper focus is like through the

Heather Pearce Campbell 25:05
roof. If he’s interested in something, he can triple down, he will be more focused than anybody else. And he will learn it faster than anybody else and tell he’s got it mastered.

Amber Hawley 25:16
Right, exactly. And I get that, like going back to, you know, when you asked about my story, being in the marketing world, I think I remember interviewing for this position, and I and I lied. I said, I could do something that I’d never done. But by the time I had to do it, I knew it. And I did it. Right. And that thing where you can learn so fast, it’s just very, so there are there are positives right now. Oh my god, the hyper focusing that is my saving grace, though. Like there are times where I can get so much done in that period of time, because I’m so focused, and it makes up for those times when I’m like, Ah, I can’t focus and I don’t want to work. But, but now I’ve done the ADHD classic thing where I just forgot what I was. That’s okay.

Heather Pearce Campbell 26:03
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Amber Hawley 28:11
No, that’s a great question. And yeah, so sometimes, and I just have to say this, because I’ve had so many clients say this, if you’re diagnosed as a kid, you still have it. You don’t outgrow ADHD. So I’m just gonna put that out there for anybody who’s questioning it.

Heather Pearce Campbell 28:26
I’m gonna make I’m gonna make my husband listen to this episode. I know. Everybody knows my husband. Yeah, I’m laughing because he’ll act like, oh, no, no, that’s not a problem for me now. And I’m like,

Amber Hawley 28:39
No, no, no, it is it is. And you know, and it does tend it. There is a hereditary component. So you do tend to see it in families like you, you know, after getting diagnosed, I looked at like, stuff my mom did. I was like, Oh, yes, totally. Now I see. And right. But going back to, yeah, the only thing we tend to grow out of, by the way, is the hyperactivity. Although when you need and I swear, you know, you see that more in men, but I’m combined type. So I have both, but I when you meet somebody who’s like 40, and they are like running like they have a motor on them. You’re like, oh, yeah, like, you must have been crazy as a child like on fire. You know,

Heather Pearce Campbell 29:21
This is gonna be my son.

Amber Hawley 29:25
Yes, I know. You know, bless them, though. They’re so awesome. So yeah, going back to that. Things that I kind of hear like, common things I hear is like, and things that I’ve been guilty of saying. So is like, Oh, it was doing so good. And then all of a sudden, like I it’s like they hit a wall or something happened. There was some little bit of pushback on something. And then they completely dropped the ball and forget, like, forget about it. Or they just feel like oh, I meant to do that and I didn’t and then it has this like trickle down crap. Be effect, right like, of things that went wrong because they weren’t on top of something right? So yeah, dropping balls or feeling like it’s, it’s like you’re it’s like this sprint, and then you hit a wall and sprint and hit a wall and that kind of dynamic or even this concept of burnout. Yeah, yes, exactly. And you’re going to see, especially when somebody has ADHD, and it’s impacting them, you also will see a lot of anxiety. Now, it could just be anxiety, anxiety causes a lot of havoc, just like burnout causes a lot of havoc in people’s lives. But it’s you will see people like having anxiety because they’re overly stressed about something where I see people like to get really perfectionistic because they’ve either been so criticized in the past for mistakes, or they get so worried that if I do this, I will drop the ball. So there are I have, I do have clients who are ADHD, who, I wouldn’t consider them ball droppers, but they’re more like they’re so anxious and stressed and perfectionistic about making sure they don’t that it’s really impacting their quality of life.

Heather Pearce Campbell 31:04
So those type A those type A behaviors, right? Yeah, hey, and most

Amber Hawley 31:08
Of the people I work with are very, like type a go getter, goal oriented, again, very creative. But, you know, we all need support, we all need that help. And, you know, we’re supposed to have these support systems. And that was, you know, when I first started doing the podcast, it actually was called my biz bestie. And then I rebranded. But it was about I wanted to help entrepreneurs create those those like business support systems, because as a therapist, like, we need that we can’t just think it all has to rely on us. But it is really hard, because there’s a lot of shame involved. Or and you know, and I would have it from people, either people I hired or friends, where I would say, you know, I’m pretty, I’m kind of an open book, maybe too much. And they would, I would say, Oh, I did this, and like, oh, my gosh, you can’t do that. And I’m like, really? I can’t like, I get that, you know, especially when it was something legal or something where I messed up, or, or can I just tell you how many people I had somebody share in the group, they were like a new member. And they said, they were really shameful about not having done their taxes yet. And I was like, Girl, the extension deadline has not hit. And then we went around, and how many people in that group, just in that small group were like, I’m still doing mine this week as well, right? Like I So there’s those things where we feel so much shame about them. And it’s, and again, like, I used to feel so bad about it and get really defensive. And now it’s almost like me, it is what it is like that. I did that I dropped the ball now, how do I figure it out and move forward? Like how do I, you know, what’s the next step? Because those things happen? You know?

Heather Pearce Campbell 32:47
Well, and, you know, I think there are gonna be plenty of people listening, that don’t have ADHD that are still gonna relate to those experiences of dropping the ball. Like it’s a it’s a human experience. And that’s not to, not to, you know, undervalue the impact that it has for folks that do have ADHD or are struggling with feeling that way. My question is, how did ADHD become the focus for you, in your own work in your own right, because it sounds like what happened? I mean, at least from what I what I gathered before, that you ended up having a lot of people in your therapy practice that, you know, you recognized as having ADHD, and now you’ve created this whole, essentially, business and support system for folks that are entrepreneurs that have ADHD or ADHD, ADHD ish. How did you choose how like how, at what point did you recognize making the decision like, oh, yeah, this is it. This is right, right. This is who I’m here to help? And who I’m going to build resources for? Where was that point?

Amber Hawley 33:52
Yeah, I would say it wasn’t. It was almost kind of recent ish. So in seeing couples, and after getting diagnosed, and really delving into how, like adult ADHD looks different, and learning so much about that, you know, as a couples counselor like, and again, the average couple, when one or more of the people in the couple have ADHD, they will go on average to six therapists before it’s recognized that the person has ADHD. And this causes a lot of problems. Because there are times when, like, if you follow like a traditional way of like, oh, you need to do this and that you can be asking someone to commit to and do something that they are just not capable in that way. Right? And it looks like to the partner like, Oh, you just don’t care about me. I’m not a priority. And so all of this stuff comes up and it creates all this conflict. So I think like delving really deep into it was really trying to help the couples that I serve, because I see the pain like the shame and the pain of it, and how much like at the heart of it, you know, not everybody belongs together, right? But I really try, like when you especially If you have kids, or if you have this great relationship, but this thing keeps getting in the way, like, I want people to succeed, I want them to have healthier relationships. And so understanding he was really important. And when I would do like, you know, business like coaching consulting, I, I had a lot of resistance to the word coach, but part of me is like, get out of your own way, and just like, make peace with it, because it’s like, we know what that means, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell 35:24
You’re not alone. I like that word is I,

Amber Hawley 35:28
Gosh, I fought it for so long. So I kept saying lifestyle strategist. And I was like, sometimes you just get so obtuse, like people are like, What the hell is that? I don’t even know. But so then I started doing that. And even then, like, people would say, oh, you should, this should be your focus. I’m like, No, I love working with all kinds of business owners. And the problem is, like I was said earlier, most people don’t recognize that that’s what they’re dealing with. And there is a lot of like, with ADHD, the other kind of telltale signs there. As human beings, we have, like optimism bias that can impact our ability to get things done. Like we’re overly optimistic about what we can accomplish in a certain period of time. But that’s me 100%. Yeah, that’s all humans, that is a brain bias that we audit. Right? And but you add in that, and then this like, time blindness, where all of a sudden, like time slips away from you. Or in, there’s the executive functioning part of ADHD, where it’s hard to plan. Like, it doesn’t mean you can’t be a good planner, like I’m super type, a planter list person have all the spreadsheets, but at the same time, there also can be this logistical part that can kind of like short circuit. So there’s, there’s all of this stuff that can get in the way. So I was like, they don’t recognize that that’s the issue. But then I kept like, hearing people, like have experiences with other coaches, or like, somebody was like a productivity expert. And they’re saying, like, this is what you should do. And, and, and then they’re like, well, if once it’s painful enough, you’ll make a change. And I was like, that’s not how it works. Because it is really painful. Like, the mistakes I make are super painful. But I my brain works different. So I can’t, I can’t just say I have to fit this, you know, square peg in this round hole. I’ve got to figure out how to make, you know, a different sized hole. Like I need to figure out a different strategy for it. And so I think it more and more. And then I realized like, well, first of all, I love my people, we’re very creative. We’re usually usually fun loving and talkative and, and just such cool people. And so I like I just really love supporting them. So it was I had a lot of resistance, though not because I don’t love working with that segment. But feeling like they might not even see that that’s the issue, right. But more and more like that was where I had I had created this membership five years ago, like because I got something in my brain. And actually was six years ago now. And I got this thing in my brain. And of course, I hyperfocused and in a whole afternoon, plan everything out every detail that I put it on a shelf. I didn’t do it until last year. Finally, during the pandemic, I think I was like enough is enough, right? So I think it was it was one of those journeys where there was like pushback and like questioning, and yet I’m like, I know, this is my thing. I just love like you like your son, when you’re interested in something. It’s just so easy. And I talk about it all day. And I don’t know, it’s just something I’m into. So, but but I love I love supporting people and understanding and kind of working through the shame because there is a lot there’s a lot of shame. There’s a lot of heartache that comes, you know, with the negative sides.

Heather Pearce Campbell 38:43
Yeah. Well, and I think there’s a lot of shame on I mean, there’s lots of shame to go around. Let’s just be clear that we live in a culture that shame. There’s a lot of shame to go around for us all whether it’s body image, whether it’s you know, the good enough kind of shame because I think so many people and especially the path to entrepreneurship on its own, even without layering on ADHD, there’s there’s so much shame, right of like, can I build the thing that I want to build? Am I smart enough? Why’d why can that person do it? And I’m not doing it right, the conversations that that that are happening inside of people that don’t see the light of day? I think there’s a lot of that and, and then you look at the way that money plays into our business conversations or conversations around self worth. Right. And just the way that money is discussed and dealt with generally in our society. I think there’s a lot of shame around that conversation. Because there’s a lot of identity tied up in money and conversations around money that doesn’t belong there. Right. So there’s, there’s so much of this and then you layer on ADHD on top of I mean, I just can’t even imagine the amount of shame flowing, right? Yes, it’s surreal,

Amber Hawley 40:02
And for me, I’ve told people, I think I’ve made every single money mistake out there that you could possibly make. I tend to be, you know, this is the impulsive part, like, on one hand, I take risks, and I invest in myself. On the other hand, I can be super impulsive. And just like, I’ve signed up for, like, $2,000 programs, because I wanted to see the freebie behind the scenes thing. And I bet you there are times like, where I never even watched that damn thing after I bought it, you know, like, shit like that really come on, or, or I failed to pay my taxes in time and had to pay, like a fee, you know, a penalty, a penalty. You know, just like things like that. Where? Yeah, I mean, I’ve I’ve literally made every single mistake. So yeah, money mindset is something I’m always talking about and thinking about and always working on, because I still have that, you know, we think it’s like, you know, what do they say, new level old devil, like you start, you start working through things and you grow your business, but then old stuff can kind of pop back up that old narratives pop back up. But it is hard. And money is another one where, again, inherently we’re supposed to, you know, be so savvy around money to be a good entrepreneur, quote, unquote, you know, I’m doing it on video, right? Air quotes share. But at the same time, it’s like, money is an emotional issue. Like, it’s not usually the numbers, you can add, you can subtract, but there’s a lot, like you said, of emotional content that gets triggered and like wrapped up in money and how we approach it and all of that. And so it’s really, really hard. And then if you add in any, any ability of, or any part of impulsiveness, or, you know, like you said, I just like, I just need this off my plate, because I can’t stand it anymore. And you hire somebody without following through, you know, managing them, you know, any of that stuff. And then it just ends up, you know, kind of screwing you and putting you in a worse position. So, there’s yeah, there’s just some, there’s so many ways that it can impact like you said, in addition to the challenges that I think are already there,

Heather Pearce Campbell 42:12
And one of the ironies, especially about the money conversation, is that it’s like, the one thing that is not taught anywhere in our entire educational experience, right, like, nobody, literally nobody graduates to adulthood, truly understanding money, unless they had some young experience with having to manage their own or, you know, like real life experience, it’s a challenging thing to get in most parents aren’t are not doing an adequate job educating their, their little people financially, or about, like, the real, like, the real world of money. And it, you know, like this struggle perpetuates. Right, so anyways, we could go like a mile deep into,

Amber Hawley 42:56
No, I know, I feel the same way. I have a little soapbox about that, too. So yeah, that I agree, though, like, that’s the thing. And yet we’re supposed to just know these things, right? Or, Oh, if you read this book, like, You should then be the expert. It’s like, no, that’s not how it works.

Heather Pearce Campbell 43:11
So with with the kind of, you know, with the clients and the folks that you’re supporting, is it about distractibility? Is it about the fact that it’s just more challenging to prioritize? Like, how do you define, you know, kind of the struggle because I think all of us know what distraction feels like, especially, you know, pandemic life? Is it that that’s a bigger struggle, is it that just the, the challenge that everybody has of prioritizing certain things in their business just becomes way harder?

Amber Hawley 43:45
Yeah, um, I would say, like, obviously, there are individual nuances, but I will definitely prioritizing is one of those very tough things. And that goes back to that executive functioning. Yeah. And so some of it is not having a plan not being not even being able to focus long enough to make a plan. And then just feeling like then we just do what we feel like doing. So I always say like, you know, when you menu plan for the week, you know, Cheetos, yeah. I was, like, you know, when I menu planned, it was like, I’m like her, I don’t really want that. But that was what Thursday night was. So I cook it and it’s done or you know, whatever. But if I don’t, I’m gonna probably and I did do this during pandemic, like eat pizza and burgers, like every freaking night. So you know, like, if we don’t menu plan, we’re gonna go on our whims and you are never going to prioritize those things in your business that are challenging for you, or trigger you or are like, Oh my god, I have to do this. Like we make them so much bigger than they are. So I do think that is a big piece of it, that prioritization. I have like a framework that I work from, it’s a DD so it’s like assess, discern and then develop the plan like so it’s, but there’s but then There’s these things where, like, people will say, I know this is just the one thing I need to do. And there’s this emotional resistance to it. And they feel the shame and they feel so bad. And I was like, I get it like I have, I’ve been there. These people have been there, you know, that are in the membership, or, you know, if it happens to be one of those calls, but like, I understand, like, it should be simple. Like, I always say, one of my places is getting to the post office. I love buying presents for people. I can get it to a place where I will buy it months in advance, inevitably, everything is sent late, not because I don’t have it or didn’t think of them. But there’s some kind of weird, like, I don’t know, vortex between me and the post office and getting things out. Right. And so it’s like understanding those things, because other people will be like, Oh my god, ama just go to the post office like go right now. Like, oh, okay, have you said that to me? And I had free space, I will just go to the post office right then. It’s sometimes it is that is just like, moving away all the clutter and saying, okay, yes, I’m doing this right now. So I do think at the core, a lot of it is prioritization, but also like overwhelming ourselves, like overwhelming our schedules. And that’s something I talk about a lot is we overcommit and especially as I think women and mothers like the overcommitting to everybody, we’re overscheduled, we’re overloaded. And then we think, Oh, I should be able to discern the perfect priority every single day. And it’s like, no, that’s not how it works.

Heather Pearce Campbell 46:32
Good day. So

Amber Hawley 46:32
A random Good day, like I chose the right thing.

Heather Pearce Campbell 46:37
Like the lottery wheel, I know. So how do people how do people declutter that, especially if they have a hard time with prioritization?

Amber Hawley 46:47
I like to start, so I’m kind of one of those people like I like to start big picture and then kind of narrow down. So the things that I like, when I work when I start with people are usually around their schedule and their commitments, right? So I start with that. But then I also talk about, like, then it’s the daily to dues or like, I say, like, what’s on your plate as far as, like, what are your like, knowing exactly what you need to do each day. And I, I resisted this for years. But I’m a avid believer in your one thing, like the one thing and I teach like, quarterly goal planning workshops, kind of from that premise of, it’s really important. So if you have 10 things on your to do list, and then you get three done, you feel crappy, because you didn’t get done what you felt you quote, unquote, needed to get done. But if you put the three top, I usually say one top priority, but you can have three at the most of like two other things, that would be great. If you could, and you put those on your list, you’re very realistic about what you expect yourself to get done in that day, when you achieve those, you feel fantastic. And that creates a behavioral momentum. That actually means the next day, you’re more likely to get those things done again. And it comes back to, I think, when you break it down really small. I always like to know, like, write that list the day before, because again, the same thing, you’ll waste hours in the morning trying to rewrite that list. And whenever I’ve written that list in the morning, it ends up being super long. And I’m like, I know better. You know, but when you’re in that space, you’re almost like stress, like writing or something. So during the big brain dump, yeah, exactly. Yeah, the brain dump. So it’s like getting clarity. And so schedule, then like what you expect. So managing your expectations on in a day. Because when you do that, and when I find people do that, and I also am a huge fan of like, time blocking, and like so you’re not task switching, right, or context switching. And so you’re staying in that one zone, because that’s capitalizing on the hyperfocus thing that we can do as ADHD, like, let’s stay in the zone. Because if I’m asking you to do something in a different zone, it’s going to it just kind of disrupts everything. So I think those are kind of like my top strategies. But yeah, I always kind of go big picture narrow, narrow, but if you’re inherently if you are over committed and overwhelmed, it is almost impossible to make those prioritizations. Right.

Heather Pearce Campbell 49:10
Yeah. Oh, and I feel it. I mean, like you say, especially wearing multiple roles, Mom role. You know, pandemic role is still a little weird, even with kids right now back in school, because it’s like my schedule still is. I have late drop off for both kids. They start later than most other schools and then and then I’m also picking them up for lunch still, because I don’t want them unmasking around other kids or too little to be vaccinated. Right. And so it’s like my schedule is still super wonky, where there is still more context switching than I would like and lots of running around and all of this stuff, but it’s like I’m at least getting a couple hours back at a time where I feel like I can get like one or two things done but that what you’re talking about like going you know starting wide and then going narrow, narrow, narrow. You’re absolutely right that you have to be that focused in order to get something done. Because if you have all these things on your plate, I mean, and I’m the queen of like super long lists of like, here’s the 89 things I need to finish this week.

Amber Hawley 50:14
Exactly. And then like, break that out through the week. That’s the thing. This is my this is kind of my other soapbox where I’m like, our bandwidth is not the same still, right? And so when you’re in so this is where like I say, we always have to take into consideration what’s going on our life. Some people are dealing with losses or divorces, or illnesses or whatever. So there’s, that’s in addition to this limited bandwidth. So expect less of yourself, and it actually creates more productivity, ironically, right? But we are still in COVID. And this is where I see this year, especially last year, people gave each other a lot of grace and consideration. And they gave themselves that this year. It’s like, no, no, no, what’s wrong with me? And like back in COVID, I was like, back in COVID. I like we’re still in COVID friends. But we all of a sudden, we think, Oh, I should have I had a friend who say that she has ADHD. And she’s like, well, people have, they should have figured it out by now. And I was like, no, like, we’re still dealing with this. And Case in point I just, I shared with you, I just got over COVID I’m vaccinated, everything. And I got COVID. And then my oldest got it for sure. And so my kids had been home all week, which has been insane, and like really hard. And so it’s like, we can’t stop thinking that somehow you’re back to quote unquote, normal because that’s not true. But like you said, when you now it’s not even back to the old normal. You have, but you have a little time. So you feel this pressure. But then you have to get even more like, I can do one thing today, if I only do one thing, what will it be? And then you feel good about that. And then you can have those things that are like gravy, you know, Cherry on Top things. But don’t, don’t pretend like I’ve seen I’ve done that too. Like, oh, no, I’ll be fine with just this one thing, but really, in my mind, but I’m like, but you need to do all five, like do those five things. And it’s like no, no pretending for reals expected at one thing. And then you feel so much more relaxed, and it gives you more energy and the stress takes up a lot of energy. So for me, it’s about energy management.

Heather Pearce Campbell 52:19
No, I Well, and you bring some important context back into this about, first of all COVID Not being over. And the fact that for so many people that I know, 2021 has actually been harder on them than 2020. And I think it is a lot of actually what you just spoke about that we have this expectation that like, we should have figured it out. And I think many of us, myself included, rounded the corner into 2021 thinking like, Okay, we’re going to reach some like, you know, semblance of normal, not pre COVID normal, I’m clear that we don’t need to go back to that place. Right. But, but thinking like, okay, you know, that’s fine, we’re gonna get there, and then still having 2021 be really hard for other reasons, right? And so many that we still can’t control. But yes, it’s, I think, you know, we need to continue to have grace and be gentle with ourselves and with others. And that, to me, is also still a silver lining that has come from COVID. Is that like, whether you wanted it or not? It’s hard to like you, you I think in so many ways, we all have been forced to insert an element of humanity back into our, our understanding and our bigger picture concept of what other people might be going through, because so many people are going through a lot.

Amber Hawley 53:38
Yes. And and I like you said, I’m seeing the impact of those that chronic stress or the Crohn’s are being forced to deal with things in this overwhelming situation. And now it’s bubbling up in 2021, more like I’m the I see it in my business. I’ve seen it, you know, in so many of the people I’m working with, and that’s the thing, it’s taking a toll and it’s we’re not, you know, we’re not in a normal place. And where else do you say I have to go pick up my kid because I’m afraid they’re going to get it. They could potentially get this disease and die, you know, so I got to pick them up. So they don’t eat without a mask. I mean, that’s a frickin stressor. That’s huge, right? And, you know, if it was something else, where it’d be like, Oh, it’d be nice to do this or pick up my kids or do that, that you can say, oh, you know, I’m prioritizing. I’ll let that go. But when the motivation for that is what you’re talking about, you’re not going to make an exception there, right? So you feel like you have to do that. And that’s fine. But you can’t expect yourself to be running at 100% and still manage everything. So

Heather Pearce Campbell 54:45
that’s right. Yeah, no, it’s so true. So I want to ask you a little bit in first of all, I want to acknowledge the fact that you said you know, you personally kind of hit a wall in a phase of burnout and involved in accident involving your son. I’m so sorry to hear that. That As a parent just like makes, you know, just makes my whole body just like shrink up. How? How do you cope? Because I think there are still a lot of people that are reaching burnout or have reached it multiple times throughout this this period of COVID. And trying to you know, and for folks that have had to like establish whole new businesses or whole new directions that they’re pursuing. And there’s plenty of those folks. How how do you walk people through this process of recognizing burnout? of dealing with it the right way? Is there a way to get through that better than others?

Amber Hawley 55:38
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it’s a process like you didn’t get to burnout overnight, and it does take time. So it’s definitely a process. And yet, sometimes people don’t even recognize that that’s what’s going on. Or they’re so in survival mode, that they’ll tell, they’ll tell you like the 15 things that are stressing them out on their plate, and they’re like, but I just have to do it. Like, there’s no other option, you know, and right now, because of COVID. There’s also like less access to childcare, or that you feel comfortable with, there’s also like that, like, if you have family members that need to be taken care of, or you know, had extra support, there’s that worry about them or needing, needing to help people who didn’t normally need help prior, but now they’re needing extra support. And, you know, and then the isolation, there’s just so much that leads to that. So sometimes it’s even understanding and I know the first time the firt my first bout of burnout that I would say, when I finally realized it, I it took me a while because you always hear like compassion fatigue, or like you start to resent your clients or doing the work. And I kept going, like, I love working with my clients. And I this was back when I was just doing therapy clients. And I, I was like, I just love working with them. And I that’s the one time I really show up and shine like I never miss an appointment like, probably way too much. Like, there were times I probably should have canceled. But, you know, like, because my back was out or something. I always show up and I thought, Oh, well, I’m still enjoying that work. So I must not be burnt out and then not realizing, look, I basically let like the administrative side, like run to crap until I hired the right people, right? Or I started feeling tons of resentment in my personal life like feeling like insanely irate with my husband over things, or feeling like, which some of it was deserved, I will say, but I’ve just yet. But 24 years together some of it. Or like I started actually feeling even resentful towards employees like, can’t you just like why are you Why just play? Yeah. And I bind shows up much more in the employee thing, which I’ve had a lot of awareness of why that comes out. But And that’s I think that the second biggest struggle I hear from entrepreneurs is about hiring and like that whole process, that struggle of finding the right people, but it’s like, I felt like, oh, what’s wrong with you? Why did you do that, and they kept making mistakes, which is human, but my compassion for that was very low, like my tolerance. I mean, I would show up and do the right thing that you’re supposed to say, but internally, I would feel rageful like, I was like, Oh, my God, you’re such a drain, you know, like, I would feel that. And so yeah, I think it can show up in different ways. And, you know, I know we’re about out of time, but I was like, there, there is a definitely a process to go through and like overcoming burnout. And sometimes it is making hard choices and saying like, I’ve either got to figure out a different way to address this thing that needs to be taken care of, or I’ve got to temporarily, like let it go. Like, my favorite thing to say is like, let’s put a pin in it. So because if I tell you, you can’t do something, which you know, I don’t tell people what to do, but you can’t do something, or if I tell you need to let that go, you’re gonna want to hold on to it. Most likely, most adults don’t like to be told that. Right? But if I say let’s just put a pin in it for six months, and then revisit it, most of those pins you don’t revisit and you actually let it go. But you felt this obligation or, you know, you felt like oh, I don’t I’m not sure if I want to let it go. You know you there was some resistance to it. So that’s actually one of my favorite strategies. But I think it’s I think Simplify, simplify. Simplify.

Heather Pearce Campbell 59:23
Yeah. Well, it’s, you know, I feel like I mean, I think I personally hit two major phases of burnout, you know, different points since COVID. Started and the first time it was kind of like, okay, is this burnout, you know, and the second time it was like, Is this burnout or like major depression, you know, it was really a lot heavier than the first burnout. I think they were both burnout related and other compounding factors, but it’s, you know, it’s an especially if you’re a person that is generally optimistic. Generally, like you’ve gone along, just kind of plugging through pushing through, and you haven’t really had too many experiences like that before, it can be a hard thing I think to recognize. And so I just, you know, I think it’s really important to talk about and, you know, appreciate the fact that, you know, you shared about reaching burnout yourself. And I think the more that we talked about it, the more people are willing to look at what they’re going through a little bit more objectively, and ask more questions around it and not just put on this masking language of like, well, you know, like, the example you gave, well, I’ve got these, all of this, these things to do, and this is how I feel about it. But I just have to keep going, I just have to push through and it’s like, no, I think that

Amber Hawley 1:00:41
And a certain point, your body won’t let you right, like things are gonna happen, like, illnesses, man, you know, you can, like illnesses start showing up. I don’t wanna say manifest like, you cause them but you know, like, things start to show up and exhausted, like extreme exhaustion, and depression, like chronic burnout, of course, you’re going to feel depressed, like you don’t feel like you can do what you used to you feel you can feel like a failure. And yeah, it’s hard. And even, you know, I’m, this is I had training in this, I help people with this as a therapist, but even me, like I like I said, I didn’t recognize it. And then I tried to buy my way out of burnout, which only exacerbated it. Like, it didn’t actually solve the problem. So I just continued to try things that didn’t. I, you know, because at the time again, I wasn’t willing, like, I was like, No, I need to have this fun thing. You know, this was the end, this was the membership, which I love. But yeah, after my son’s accident, I was like, I need something where I get to connect with people and have, it’s fun. And we can talk about serious things, but where it’s not just trauma, trauma, trauma, and I can have fun and talk business and like have it be a very different experience. But yeah, you know, how you approach that is a big, big part of it.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:01:58
Right? Right. Well, it’s, I mean, I think it’s so cool that you’ve created a space where people can talk openly about this kind of stuff, being part of the path of entrepreneurship, and also specifically, you know, deal with or just, you know, discuss and learn about ADHD and its impact or ADHD ish type of symptoms or behaviors or whatever. Because I think that, you know, we’ve all been distractible at times, we’ve all been challenged when it comes to prioritize prioritizing things properly. Right, all of that. So what in then kind of the new area of work with this online membership, right, and taking a portion of your business online? What’s your favorite thing about that?

Amber Hawley 1:02:45
Oh, I have a lot of things. I guess what’s coming up for me, because there really are quite a few. I think what I noticed and that this summer, one of the best things is the flexibility because like I said, as a therapist, like I meet with people every week, at the same time, every week, and I see people long term, like, you know, some people come in and out. But I’ve had clients that I’ve had on and off for, like 10 years. So like, there, I make a commitment, right. But with that, it can be really hard to take vacations and have time off. So there’s all this flexibility and and now like now that I do it remotely, which before it was all in person, right? Right now that I do it remotely like I can travel and do things and still do my work and like focus that or because of you know how I’m working with people, there’s just more flexibility. And I think I think having that allows me because I’m not great at balance. I’m a very all or nothing person who is working towards a middle ground. But my natural rhythm is all or nothing. Like literally, there is no in between. But some things I’m getting there. And I think that this that that flexibility of being online lends to getting to that middle ground more.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:04:01
Yeah, one of the silver linings, right. Yeah, I think a lot of people are reevaluating how they can show up and do their work in new ways. And maybe even my husband who’s not an entrepreneur, but like the way they do meetings has totally changed and it’s like, I would be so shocked to see any even company go back quote unquote, to pre pandemic, you know, normal type of scheduling. Like why would you do that? Yeah, that we have this new level of flexibility and it’s like, you know, even for people that maybe at one point had to travel or do other things for work commitments, and now they are able to achieve much more balance in the way that they schedule their days that you know, it’s anyways, I think there are some silver linings and hopefully we can hang on to those. I know and I want to be respectful of time as well. It’s I feel like this topic My goodness, we could We could just keep going on it.

Amber Hawley 1:05:02
You know, we might need to do a part two. So

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:05:03
We were totally we can totally do it. Part two,

Amber Hawley 1:05:06
Hashtag burnout will be burnout.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:05:09
Oh my gosh, I know well, and you know, here’s the thing is burnout is still gonna happen. Even post pandemic, whenever we’re through, right the heat of whatever is continuing and whatever is going to come to an end, there’s there’s still going to be burnout, there’s still going to be things that cause us to hit walls and face challenges and you know, things that we need to recognize around that. I love you’ve got a gift and it’s called self care for when life is a shit show. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? So?

Amber Hawley 1:05:39
Yes, um, that is very much my, my humor and my style very direct. I say I’m the queen of care for patients. So the queen of what care for patients or for hearing confrontations? Like, let’s get real, let’s like But, but they know it’s coming from such a not judgmental space. Right? Um, yeah. So this is something that I’ve used with, like clients throughout the years in therapy even. And it’s kind of like, creating that list of coping strategies or things that, that help you either distress or bring you joy. But think in sometimes you need that list, like visible because when you’re in it, you can’t always think of it unless somebody says to you, hey, why don’t you, you know, go to XYZ or go go outside for a walk, or, you know, take a hike, or whatever, whatever the thing is, I was like a guy, like, Lady Oh, like. Um, and so I, you know, created this thing, where it’s like, here’s some strategies that take, you know, like, one minute, five minutes, here’s things that you need, like 30 minutes to do or an hour or, like, so it’s about having like, figuring out, okay, I have a few minutes, or I have 30 minutes. And what can I do to like, make myself feel better to be to reduce my stress, because stress, we’re just filled with stress in our modern life. And so it’s about incrementally like bringing it down below the threshold where it feels manageable, right. And so those small things, and you know, some of it might be that bubble bath, or whatever, you know, whatever that thing is, but it doesn’t all have to be like that. Like it’s customized. So I give some suggestions, but I allow you the space to kind of write your own list. So you have that. So when life is a shit show, you can take a look and say, Okay, is there something on here that I can do? Will it change the reality of the shitty thing happening? No, but it’ll cope a little right

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:07:39
Or help you get through it totally. Well, it’s funny, and I’ve said this before, but like essential oils, like if you’re talking about like, one minute self care, right, there’s an essential oil called motivate by doTERRA that I think is like orange and maybe I don’t know, a little vanilla. It’s citrusy. But it is like, it’s a little bit like drinking a cup of coffee for me. I can be like, Oh, okay, okay, I have to push through another, you know, half hour an hour like I can do this and it’s like layering enough of those in I feel like it like they make a difference.

Amber Hawley 1:08:14
They do make a difference. Yeah. And that’s Yeah, cuz sometimes you need to rest sometimes you need to rally. So what do you do?

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:08:20
Yeah, no, it’s so true. So for folks that are listening, you can check out her self care gift. I love that it’s relevant for all of us. Check, hop over to the show notes page at Legal website warrior.com forward slash podcast. Amber, where do you show up online I’m gonna share your other links. So run us through where you show up online and where you’d like for people to connect with you.

Amber Hawley 1:08:43
I see and this is one of those things like during this pandemic I was like I got to put some pins and stuff so I’ve been narrowing and being realistic about where I spend time because because I can go down like a tick tock spiral like anybody else. I would say on Instagram I’m it’s Amber Holly on Instagram. So I’m definitely there on LinkedIn as well. I’m trying to be more consistent there because that is you know, I see the value in it. So I am there

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:09:16
I can hear you talking yourself into it.

Amber Hawley 1:09:19
I really am I really I guess this is this is gonna make me that 40 something year old woman where I really am on Facebook a lot because that’s already where all my people are. You I know everyone’s like so over Facebook. I’m like I’m on Facebook a lot because that’s how I connect with my family because no one lives near us. And so and all my friends and all the groups I’m in so I do I do love Facebook. I’m always reluctant to share it because I know so many fields.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:09:49
Right? It’s the disclaimer right? on Facebook. However, I do not support the puppy. No, I’m kidding. Yeah,

Amber Hawley 1:09:55
Exactly. Exactly. But yeah, you can always you know, hit me up there. And, you know, or message me in Instagram or Facebook, you know, if you want if you have questions or want to connect, but I would say the podcast is probably the

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:10:11
Other place. Awesome. And is that just on your website? Amberhawley.com

Amber Hawley 1:10:16
Yes, Amberhawley.com. But it’s on any podcast player like all the podcasts,

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:10:20
They could go find it. Yeah, I’m just thinking if somebody wanted to catch your home base and get access to more information about you there. Amber, so great to connect with you today, I really enjoy getting to know you better, and hearing about how you support entrepreneurs and folks in the space that I serve, especially with challenges around you know, ADHD, prioritizing burnout, etc. It’s really, really important topic. What final takeaway or piece of advice you want to leave people with today?

Amber Hawley 1:10:58
I think, you know, hopefully hearing this, whether I would say one, whether or not you because I have people ask us like, I think I have ADHD, like should I go get an evaluation, like that kind of thing. I always say, I mean, it can be helpful sometimes for me, it was very helpful to have the diagnosis, because then I understood, like, where these behaviors were coming from, and it allowed me to like, again, stop thinking I was just my shitty personality parts. But figuring out like different strategies like giving, so I was able to have a lot more compassion for myself. And I say, you know, if, if the diagnosis will help you in that way, or if you’re considering medication, not everybody does medication, it’s really, you know, depends on the situation, then I think it can be valuable. But if you’re like, I’m on the fence, and I don’t really know, there are some, you know, free online quizzes that you can take. I like Dr. Ayman, he has seven different types that he talks about, you can always do that to find out for yourself. But I’d say at the very least, like understanding the different strategies, because even if you’re like, so if you have neurodiversity, like if you’re not, you know, neurotypical, in your if you have sorry, if you are neurotypical, and then you like, look at these strategies that help people that have ADHD, they’re gonna help you. I think the inverse is not always true as the problem is, like, the inverse, the normal, quote, unquote, ways of doing things don’t always work for anybody who has any type of neurodiversity, whether that’s ADHD, or autism, or any other kinds of things that kind of are Uncategorized, where your brain works a little different. But I would say, even if, you know, like, look at those strategies and see if they help you. And, you know, regardless, you might not care, you might not even be like, Yeah, you know, I’m 47. I don’t really care. It’s not impacting me. Maybe I could learn a few things. But I would say that’s maybe my biggest takeaway. That’s a common question I get.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:13:00
No, I love it. It’s, well, it’s super important. And people being able to make a meaningful choice. I mean, I just spoke with somebody in one of my entrepreneur, masterminds actually, a couple of weeks ago, we connected for the first time, it took us like six months. And he had recently learned as an adult that he was ADHD. And it was only because his wife figured out she was ADHD. Exactly, I opened up this whole cover, and I asked him, I said, you know, was it helpful for you to like to sort that out? And he was, like, so helpful. And I said, you know, what ways did it help? And he’s like, it just, you know, put things into a context that helped me understand why certain things were really hard, like, felt harder for me than just other people, you know, and, and so, you know, if it if it helps people, I agree, I think it’s, it’s worth it. And there are enough resources now, I mean, as a parent of a neurodiverse child, right? I mean, obviously, with children nowadays, it’s like, you know, I want to do anything I can to help my kiddo, get the support, because he has actually both an autism and an H ADHD diagnosis, you know, get the early support that might help him have a stronger foundation in school or learning or whatever it is that he wants to do, but you know, it can’t hurt you to have the education and additional resources and then as an adult, obviously you get to test out are they do they feel supportive? Do they feel like they work for you, right? Is it a strategy that you can adapt and use? Amber’s so great to connect with you, I so appreciate your time today. I do hope that we get to part two, and I hope that it’s sooner than later and I hope that we also get to say that it’s post pandemic.

Amber Hawley 1:14:48
I look forward to that as well.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:14:52
Thank you.

GGGB Outro 1:14:56
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.