With Gert Mellak, an SEO expert, the founder, and CEO of – an International SEO agency with over 20 years of SEO experience. They help companies from all over the world to have more leads and sales with their SEO Services.

Gert is also the author of “The ERICA Framework,” a book that explains his successful SEO framework that has helped numerous clients achieve remarkable results. With the growing use of AI tools like Chat GPT, Gert is well-known for his expertise in SEO and AI. He has been interviewed on several podcasts and YouTube shows to discuss how businesses can make the most of SEO for conversion-driven strategies.

Originally from Austria, Gert moved to Madrid, Spain, ten years ago to raise a family and establish his digital marketing agency. With over two decades of experience in SEO, Gert has been applying and learning all the ins and outs of how search works to leverage opportunities for his clients’ websites. Through his expertise and dedication, Gert has helped his clients generate millions of visitors, thousands of leads, and millions of dollars in sales, all organically through the power of SEO.

Join us in this captivating podcast as Gert shares his expert insights on how to maximize the effectiveness of your SEO efforts without breaking your bank. With a wealth of knowledge on the crucial role that SEO plays in website development, Gert reveals the key factors that determine search engine rankings and how to create compelling content that engages your audience and drives traffic to your site. You will also learn in this episode how to convert that traffic into valuable leads and customers by implementing smart strategies that get results. With Gert’s in-depth knowledge and practical tips, you’ll gain a competitive edge in the digital landscape and take your website to the next level. 

Don’t miss out on this invaluable resource for leveraging your SEO!

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • Where SEO comes into website build out.
  • The two things nobody talks about when it comes to writing.
  • Why is the content creation process important?
  • Focus on conversions over traffic.
  • “Content from back then needs to be refreshed, recycled, optimized, presented in a different way. What was working eight years ago has no relevance for today”

“Traffic doesn’t even matter so much. It’s about having those people that really want to come to us and take action… if we don’t get those people in the first place, the messaging is not going to matter at all.”

-Gert Mellak

Check out these highlights:

  • 03:21 Gert shares his journey starting from the technical field to entrepreneurship.
  • 10:44 Where do clients usually get wrong when it comes to driving traffic to their website?
  • 14:19 How to effectively choose the primary focus of your content.
  • 25:35 Gert’s high level tips on how to structure the text.
  • 38:29 Where does he start with his SEO support?

How to get in touch with Gert:

On social media:





Learn more about Gert, by visiting his website here.

Special gift for listeners: Get 10% off and a personal onboarding call with Gert to help you develop a custom action plan by emailing him at or click here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below:

Gert Mellak  00:00

I’ve been doing SEO for 20 years. I don’t know how I particular that you should be presented and Google is going to tell me. So if I want to rank for SEO agency in Spain, the best thing I can do is type this into Korea, and see what comes up. Because what comes up is what Google thinks that users want to see.

GGGB Intro  00:18

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  00:48

Alrighty, folks, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I am super excited for this conversation today. We are way overdue for this conversation. And for those of you that have this on your list for this year, you are in for a treat. My guest today is Gert Mellak. And Gert, I should have asked you, how do you pronounce your last name?

Gert Mellak  01:20

My last is perfect. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:22

Well, okay, good. I’m so glad I didn’t flub that. For those of you that don’t know, Gert is the founder and CEO of – an SEO platform that helps course creators, coaches and e-commerce sites grow their SEO in a conversion-focused way.  Gert is also the author of the book “The ERICA Framework” where he describes his way of approaching SEO a bit differently than a usual agency would do. Implementing this methodology, together with the SEOLeverage platform, has led to clients sticking to this program for years, while consistently improving their results. Gert, welcome.

Gert Mellak  02:04

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:06

Yeah, I so appreciate you. I know you’ve had to give me a little flexibility because we have this scheduled I think last year and then had to bump it probably if I were to guess because feels like all of the final quarter of last year I spent either sick or my kids being sick. I felt like I was back in newborn baby days. No, like no sleep up all through the night. Anyways, it was a wild ride. It never stopped. I know. Well, I’m hoping it does. Like my daughter is five now. So I’m hoping that we’re on the bubble of her turning into a better sleeper. Anyway, I’m super excited to kick off, we’re recording this right. You know, shortly after the new year, this is actually my first podcast recording for the new year. So it’s a super important topic and one that I personally look forward to learning more about as well through this conversation. For folks that don’t know you share, I know you and I were introduced through James Schramko. Right, who his episode will be coming out here in the next little bit. But for folks that don’t know your background, kind of your path into entrepreneurship, will you share a little bit about yourself?

Gert Mellak  03:20

Absolutely. So I’m originally from Austria and Europe, landed in in Spain based on for my wife have been living here and working here for quite a few years already. And I come from a technical background. So I did study my IT programming skills, assembled computers, these kinds of stuff, I got into Web Design, got into designing websites and finding out nobody came to visit them. And then just started looking into ways how I could actually drive traffic to the website. Initially, it was just traffic wherever it came from. But we very quickly figured out that it’s really about relevant traffic, people who actually need this right now or want to find out something and get exposed to your brand. So very quickly I think came into segmenting the traffic and really looking for those visitors that actually can drive the business forward. So I did everything in digital marketing, anything you can imagine from from social ads, to Facebook, to Instagram, to YouTube, whatever you want to name. Ultimately, we landed in search marketing in general, we still do some Google ads. But first and foremost, we specialized in SEO and search engine optimization, where it’s really about making sure that Google understands that your website in a certain context is one of the best choices on the net.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:40

Hmm, how so first of all, a couple things that I love about your journey. One is that you started building websites. I mean, I don’t love this part for you, but then realizing like, oh, nobody’s coming like you don’t build a website and people just automatically show up. Right and I think that people sometimes you know, what should we call them false aspirations around how that’s gonna go when they complete a new website build out?

Gert Mellak  05:08

Absolutely. I have a funny story here after the client once came in and said, Yeah, we already have a website as well. We’re talking 15 years ago. So this was in Spain, this was quite a thing. So they said, yeah, had a website and it was asking him this, does it work for you? And he just opened up his browser and opened up his website and said, yeah, look is working. But I was like, Yeah, does it work for you? Right, I can see it working. And this would be the basis like the car brings you from dot A to dot B. But is it working for you? And hell? Yeah. How do you mean this right? So when we got into conversions, do people actually do what you expect them to do the recall you based on what they see today, inquire more information to the download something etc. And it’s just for many companies, still today opens a completely new world where it’s okay, they still have this mindset, especially if they’re like 50-60, maybe business owners have had their fair share of experience, but not necessarily digitally, they still have this mindset of exposure equals more sales. Just today, we are exposed to 1000s and 1000s of ads every day, where it really doesn’t doesn’t matter so much unless it is really catching our attention at the right moment. That’s right. This is where SEO really comes in.

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:23

Well, and I imagine the SEO, because you think about the steps in that process, right? And I love your focus on conversion, like is it actually working? So I think lots of people can set up and run ads and do that kind of stuff. But if they are not helping you figure out that whole conversion equation, you can waste so much money doing that. And I know plenty of people who have who have thrown a lot of money at that problem, right? So when you talk about SEO conversion, like, that’s a big, that’s still there’s a lot that happens within that, right? You do all of it? Do you focus on a piece of it, like where my mind is going is like, do you have the right message to begin with? Are you using the right messaging and language to speak to your people in the right way? Right? What parts of that equation do you look at? Do you support your clients? 

Gert Mellak  07:21

This is definitely one part. So if a conversion actually just means, do they do what I want them to do, right? So very often people have in conversion to have in mind, do they fill in the contact form? To download something and give me the email address? Do they buy something in an ecommerce store? This would be what very often called Hard conversions. Right? But they’re also soft conversions. Are people actually clicking on the contact page? Do they want to know where you are located to they click on your results page or testimonials? Right? How engaged is this traffic? So what we do very often is that we define both hard conversions, but also soft conversions to figure out what is happening on the site. What does the traffic do we send traffic to the site, we send visitors your way. But we want to know where do they come in when they react the best? On the flip side, those users that actually do what we want them to do, where do they come to the website? Many people expect everybody started the homepage, that’s not the case. Many people come somewhere to one of your blog posts to one of your articles, to your about page, etc. And might then inquire more on your website browse around and see is this they do the so called sniff test does this smell like? Like it’s for me right where the messaging comes in. But then for the conversions, it’s also the other equation, it needs to be the right kind of person coming in. Because otherwise, the messaging doesn’t matter. Right? If you’re selling cars, and there’s somebody coming in for who wants to buy a motorbike, the sniff test isn’t going to work. So the first thing we usually establishes that we try to understand who actually comes to this website. And this is one of the main issues, clients come to us with that they see we get traffic, we get 50, 500, 5,000 people coming to our website every day. But hardly anybody converts, hardly anybody reaches out, hardly anybody does something. And then when we analyze the traffic very often, probably 60-70% of the time, we find that the people that come to your site are not relevant for what you’re selling. So people tend to really make a little bit of a fuzzy image around what they do. So they go really broad with a blog, for example, people have learned that Google seems to be ranking blog posts, and that’s fair enough. But they then talk convert their site actually in an online magazine, talking about everything around their industry. And forget a little bit what they actually wanted when they built a website in the first place, which was selling an attorney for example, a consultancy program or someone else a course or a coding program or whatever it is or the products on an E-commerce site. So it’s one thing that very often ego-driven, we want to have like upward trending statistics and tons of traffic and the need to have twice the traffic this year than I had last year. Traffic actually doesn’t even matter so much. It’s really about having those people that really want to come to us and close to ready to maybe take action, or at least the next step is okay, I like this brand, not ready to buy it, but I want to get some more information from them. If we don’t get those people in the first place, the messaging is not going to matter at all.

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:29

Yeah, yeah, it’s so true. And I think a lot of people have experienced this pain point that you’re talking about. How do people get this wrong? What are walk us through some of the biggest glaring errors that you see people making out there?

Gert Mellak  10:42

Absolutely. One of the main things, I have learned to embrace our SOPs in my business, right, so standard operating procedures, we have a team of 30 people right now in the agency, we could not do without defining certain processes. How do we analyze a website? How do we optimize for SEO? How do we create a piece of content etc, we’re going to talk about this maybe later a little bit more. Those SOPs are great. The problem with a team and especially when it’s a remote team, is that they’re going to blindly follow the SOPs. And they’re going to have a variable part that’s not defined, but then follow the SOPs. And if the processes are the assignment was to create two blog posts per week, they’re going to do this. Right? What’s the problem? You might start out your website with 50 pages about your… Imagine you’re an attorney. For immigration, you have 50 articles about immigration, legal situation laws, forms replications, whatever it is, right? But then you have a team maintaining your blog, or you bring an external company in that’s supposed to maintain your blog, they’re going to start taking steps away from your core business, because they’re not industry experts. Okay, I’m not a lawyer, I’m not an attorney. But I can talk to immigration, Why won’t people from Italy go to the United States and live there? Right? Why is New York the best place to live for immigrants, right? What are the famous most famous sights in New York, so they start taking steps back from this, because it’s easier, it’s natural, everybody tries to get the way they were they can work most efficiently without too much research, etc. This is what just usually happens. This at scale means that after two years, you might suddenly have 200, blog posts that have pretty much nothing to do with your core business. So what Google tries to do, is to connect the dots, so my children are 10, and eight, right now, they play this game will connect dot number one to dot number two. Now number three needs a kit. And I hate it. I’ve drawn a kit, right? Perfect. Google tries to do the same thing. So your website, you start out your website gives them certain dots. And they can roughly say this is pretty much looks like it could be a kit, right? But then you follow an SOP for two years, putting 500 other dots on a map that have no connection with this first cat shape whatsoever. And Cooley has a really hard time understanding what your website is about. So long story short, one of the main errors we see is that people go too far away from their core business model when they create content, which creates a very fuzzy image, and is going to make sure that you end up not even ranking well for your core business pages. But you’re going to be happy, traffic is going up you see, the more we post on the blog, the more traffic comes in trust that 98% of the traffic is completely irrelevant is going to leave is not going to give Google positive signals. So even your core pages would have given positive signals are going to rank worse.

Heather Pearce Campbell  13:49

So it sounds like and I would imagine that even let’s pretend that there are multiple topics that somebody is an expert on that it actually serves their business better to go really deep into a single focus topic to rank for that than it does to it sounds like spread yourself too thin across a range of things. Talk to us about folks that are like well, how do I choose the primary focus?

Gert Mellak  14:19

It’s definitely strategies right. One strategy some people go after is is just creating different websites. If I’m an attorney, but I’m also a woodworker, and I want to sell my woodworking review or plans or whatever. There’s so so unrelated, I would really suggest making two different websites. If I’m an attorney, breaking in privacy laws and and divorce. Maybe two different sections on our website are enough. But then they want to have for each of these sections, enough content to really back it up but content, not in general, like divorce statistics or something like in very general topics, but really talking to the problems, pain points, people are coming to me with.

Heather Pearce Campbell  15:09

If you choose a topic I’m hearing you say go deep into that topic.

Gert Mellak  15:14

Exactly, if you have two topics go deep into two topics correct. And the reason is really, because Google connects the dots not only on one architecture, but across the website. So we need to make sure that similar pieces related pieces of content linked to each other link is like this connection is connecting the dots for Google is made with the link the internet is based on links. So this is how Google establishes that these are the key. Article A is related to Article B. Right? So suddenly, Article A comes up for some B terms. And Article B comes up for some aAterms on Google, because they just establish the context. And this is how Google learns, they try to understand what’s happening. And Google tries to make us believe they’re so smart, they can just figure everything out. They can’t. Yeah, right. They just want us to pay for advertising right away, and not even tried with SEO is in their best interest. They really are the acting in their interest. They definitely have a strong interest in making people believe ads and spending money on ads is the only way.

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:20

Yeah, so I’m hearing you point out a couple things that that folks can do differently when it comes to creating content. Is there anything else on that list about you know, when you sit down to either choose a topic or create content, how you should be doing it differently, either than the marketplace, or than the way that you’ve been doing it? If that hasn’t been working?

Gert Mellak  16:43

It’s definitely the content creation process, per se. So how you come up with the topics. And it should not be an external agency necessarily can suggest topics, but it should be you because you know your business best. As a business owner, you should be making the selection. And you also want to make sure that you focus on user experience on those articles on content design. So these are two topics, nobody talks things about when it comes to writing. So one is user experience. It’s really about about this moment where you come in and say, Okay, I have a first impression of this site. And I want to make sure and know, I give them an impression that I can actually answer what people come for. Right? Sometimes this requires a redesign, because people might not transmit this serious image or trustworthy image with the design. Here’s where custom design very often comes in. Right? And people form this image within my milliseconds, right? This is not even before they read that messaging. And this is really interesting to say, it was hard for me to learn, I come from taking your background, I like this effect. And these are words and these are on the page. There’s a lot of emotion in there, right. And I might swipe back even before I read the headline, just because I don’t like the site, my brain just suggests this is not the side I was looking for. So this user experience really starts there. But it also starts is present where we’re seeing how do people go through the text, nobody reads from top to bottom anymore. But what we mostly see is the headline, maybe a video and the long wall of text. Right? Whereas we have for our clients a specific structure developed or we see what are the key takeaways put in a table of contents. Wikipedia knew this 20 years ago that the Table of Contents was a good idea. Everybody loves being able to jump to a section they are interested in. But nobody does it on their website, right. And we all know that on a mobile phone, it’s really not fun to scroll through a wall of text is much better with if it’s visual, if there are images if there are less tables bold headline highlighting, that you can do to just make this a user friendly piece. And what we need to understand about SEO is that Google, the only thing that Google really wants is to make the search user happy when they come to your website, they want them to have a good experience. And if you don’t do your part, in order to improve this experience as much as possible, they’re going to swipe back and click on a different result. And Google understands exactly the wrong signal. So we want to make sure that we really, as much as possible, embody the search user that comes to the page and take what’s probably going on in their head when they click when they have typed in the search clicked on my surgery. So what’s going on in their head? What do they want next? Sometimes this is adding more value. Can I add like a video version of this can add an infographic and add a PDF checklist. Anything that brings more value to them whether it’s okay, this is really what I was looking for, is going to add to this. And then this would really be all about user experience. And then content design for me is really how to structure the text, right? For me, every single line on an article should kind of compel the reader to read the next one. Because if I’m too boring at the beginning, or I don’t suggest what this is going to be about. People are just going to tamper with Again, they’re not going to give me a chance.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:03

Well, it’s, you know, it’s so true. I mean, even your point around right, even before you’ve read something, or even consumed the content, your brain might suggest that this was not the site you were looking for. It is so fascinating that we are making those decisions within seconds. I remember just the other day speaking to my sister, and I was talking to her about a concept that I thought would really be relevant for her. And I sent her to a website, right? I know, the owner of the website, they’re a friend of mine, right? And she showed up to the website. And she was like, I don’t like this website, right, within seconds of clicking on it. I know, she hadn’t read anything. She was like, I don’t like this website. This doesn’t work for me. You know, and I had to kind of talk to her like, oh, yeah, I see that I know. But the content is good. Like, I’ll tell you specifically what I’m directing you to and, and when you think about that, like, it’s absolutely not the experience you want people to have when they hit your website.

Gert Mellak  21:01

Yeah, a friend of mine isn’t, is an architect. And he told me a concept years ago, where he says, When you enter a room, you’re going to know within milliseconds if you’re if you’re if you like to roam, if you’re comfortable or not. And it’s like the sum of of hundreds or even 1000s of details you’re perceiving. Yeah, it might be the temperature might be the decoration might be if it’s if it’s tidy, or all things, the lighting, the design, etc. So you perceive all those things. And on the website, the exact same thing happens. So you obviously can’t design the ideal website for everybody. But there are a lot of usability things we can do in order to make sure that the vast majority of people are going to find their way around and finding information easily is one of the main key points Google wants you to focus on. They want to make sure that Google users coming to your website, find what they’re looking for easily.

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:55

Well, and I like your points above about even things that people might not think about now, but seem kind of obvious when you think, first of all, from the standpoint of pretty much everybody that accesses digital devices these days, how much we are just on information overload, right? And this point of being able to make that journey easier, faster, you know, happier, all of those things matters so much and being able to get people to stick. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:31

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Heather Pearce Campbell  24:21

So Table of Contents I heard you say you know up above adding more value with videos infographics, PDF checklist, really considering the content design, how you’re structuring the text. We talk a little bit more about that text piece right and particularly, I think of the folks that I serve their experts right there coaches consultants online educators they pretty much all live in the Expert Space professionals that come over you know from their, their “traditional profession” and branch out into the online space to create more content, educate more people serve in a bigger way. They have a lot to say, they have a lot that they’re experts on, right? What are kind of your high level tips for thinking about structuring text? You know, and I love this idea about like, think of every single line, you know, the job of that line is to compel somebody to read the next line, right? Is there are there other things that we should be thinking about visually about, you know, 200 words is too few 1400 words is too many, you know, what are the guidelines?

Gert Mellak  25:34

Well, I like to do is, I like to suggest people to use Google a little bit more. So we use Google, just to research but we don’t use it to prepare our content pieces, because we already know everything about the subject matter. But we don’t know how it should be presented. So I can have been doing SEO for 20 years, I don’t know how a particular article should be presented, and Google is going to tell me, so if I want to rank for SEO agency in Spain, the best thing I can do is type this into Korea, and see what comes up because what comes up is what Google thinks their users want to see. So I can then really go through the top 10, top 20, at least the top five, right? Go through them, read them, make some notes, if you want and say look, it seems like everything, every thing ranking on the top has a video. This is a hint.  Seems like everybody has like a list of the top three things. If I don’t have a list, there is a clear gap between what Google wants and what I have on the page. So if I’m really, really strong authority in this space and recognized authority on the internet, it might still fit in. But usually we really try to fit in with the way we present it. We shouldn’t copy from others. But we should fit in the way Google apparently suggests that this should be done there are search queries that are always going to be triggering listicles, top 10, top five, best five, first five, etc. If I write an an essay about this of 2000 words is not fitting in. At the same time, sometimes we try to answer something very complex. In a huge article, I see people trying to get in with 5000 words, they’re really proud to hit the write up blog for two weeks to put this piece of content together just to make it rank. And it might have worked a few years ago, but today, Google wants to meet what they call the search intent. So this is the reason why somebody typed in a search. So once we meet the search intent, a user is going to be happy. And if I type in the height of the Eiffel Tower, a 5000 word piece about the Eiffel Towers, history and materials used and whatnot, is not going to make me happy, right? An unformatted table showing me the height is going to do it. So we really need to adjust specifically to the length, but also the content design to what apparently it is that Google is looking for. And this is what shifts. And this is where we very often with the ongoing consulting programs, then come in and say, Look, we noticed six months ago, this was working what you have on your side. Now we see a shift in trends. And this 5000-word piece was working really well two years ago. But now it’s 1000 or 1500 words, pieces with an infographic that seemed to be the thing. So maybe let’s go back to this other tree and break it up, summarize it in a shorter version illustrated better. And then we have something that can compete. But this really requires that you have someone watching out for your competitive landscape on Google. Because ultimately, it’s your potential clients that are going to come in and they’re not going to come in like on social media, when they’re not necessarily ready. They’re going to come in when they have set aside a few minutes of time, go to Google and type something in and want to actually find someone like you. And this just has so much potential that it’s really important to dedicate some consistent time to this.

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:58

Well, it’s so important. I love your point around like the rules have changed. Because I should say I love your point, because it’s an important one. I don’t love it, because I think so many people want to set it and forget it, right? They want to like do something one time or choose a strategy and stick with it. And I know not very long ago, the least what I was hearing around creating content that ranked on Google is I can’t remember the term like creating silos, right? Really deep and tall and wide into a topic right so that you could rank but what I’m hearing you say is that’s not necessarily it now, right? 

Gert Mellak  29:38

Those silos still work. So silo is essentially just a list of very closely related articles. So if I want to rank for for the term email marketing, I would have an article about subject lines, I would have probably 10 articles about subject lines from different angles. I will talk about the copy I would have articles on copywriting on email systems. I will just really shed a light on the Is topic from all kinds of angles related articles in a strategic way, this is still a good idea. Because just because I have one piece of content around something doesn’t really translate to go with what’s called topical authority. Whereas just known for this topic, I have so much stuff about this topic on my site that have a certain relevance. So there’s a call repellent, really addressing this specifically that go, we really give some value to this. So this still works. So that but it’s definitely a moving target. So how you present content and what is valuable content that Google actually wants to rank differs all the time. And then there is another piece that’s about link building. So Google likes to rank pieces of content that others have endorsed. So imagine you have a really good checklist about how to prepare for a podcast, for example. And then you have this checklist. Everybody likes this checklist, people link to it, Google is going to feel that the internet essentially is backing you up. Like if you go to a town and you ask for the best plumber, and all everybody’s sitting in a bar gives you the same name. It’s more trustworthy, right? Then if you just pick one from the, from the stickers on, on the way, right? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:13

Oh, it’s so true. Like one day, not too long ago, I went to Facebook. And you know, I don’t have a massive number of friends. But I asked a single question around, who do you recommend as a chiropractor in Seattle, right? And I got all these names, but I got three hits three people all said the same name, right? What do you think I did?

Gert Mellak  31:34

This has value in that guy, especially. But what’s really important here is the relevance. So if those are people that you know, have been using this person before, or have been working with them before or, or know about their industry, and they back them up, it has more value and an Internet, the same thing happens. So if the local pharmacy, a local drugstore sends a link to Seo, it’s not going to have value, because it’s not relevant to go, he doesn’t trust any relevant vote, so to speak. But if those are marketing companies, or podcasters, or online marketers, coaches, ecommerce sites, this is closely related to what we do. So it’s going to have more value. So we want links from other websites into our site into our content. But do we want them with the relevant background?

Heather Pearce Campbell  32:20

Awesome. Yeah, that’s a super important tip. Okay, so you’ve already given us I mean, a list really, of some great things that we can do to be more thoughtful in the way that we choose and create our content and our topics. You know, how we create the things that that Google actually wants to rank and wants to use? Right? And I think that’s super important. Is there anything else that you feel like people regularly missed the boat on or should be thinking about?

Gert Mellak  32:59

There’s definitely around the conversion, a strong focus on conversions. And this is just really tough when you have a lot of things going on, to really focus, it goes so deep. So you might have an overall idea how many people come to your website, you might even know how many come from a social background on social media, for example, social media platforms. But you really want to make sure that you know, what kind of traffic actually is so relevant, that they would really be great to talk to him. So this is where you really want to get some help, in most cases, to set this up correctly to actually catch the data and not lose it. We have people coming to us that might be already at a seven figure stage. But they still haven’t figured out how to measure traffic properly. So one of the first things we do with them is that we just set this up correctly, it’s okay, let’s find out how many of the 100 people coming to your website actually take you out a little bit more, or download something or getting in contact with you or take out your about page but get a feeling for it because most sites get irrelevant traffic, tons of it. Right. So once you have set this up, we have internally developed for our clients platform. So they can log in, and we just fetch from all the things Google Analytics gives you, which is the standard tool to analyze websites here. From all those details, which are a little bit overwhelming. We kept like for Yeah, but we present them in a way we can see okay, over month after month, what’s in red, what’s in green, what’s going up what’s going down. And we really try to focus on the things that matter because there are probably 200 things you could be doing for SEO, everything would be good for SEO, your assistant is going to confirm this is good for SEO. So let’s do this. But there might only be for that matter in the next two or four weeks. So what we do is every couple of weeks we line those four up and say look, this is the situation this is what your competitors are doing? This is what we feel has the highest impact in the next two weeks, three, four tasks, and then do the same thing again, because we see people telling me Yeah, the website is optimized. And they they were just filling in some some form fields on a plugin in WordPress. And I think this is the optimization that’s necessary. And then they they asked me why they’re not getting results. So SEO is much more this has, it was much easier in the past, this is another thing. So people might have had really good success just by blogging about whatever they wanted eight years ago, 10 years ago, because there was no competition back then, whatever you had was slightly related to what you had on your website gave you tons of traffic, and it was actually so much traffic, that a small fraction that was relevant, gave you possibly a seven figure business, right? So we have today, people coming to us and say, Look, I was number one, I was the first person blogging about this, I was number one in this niche, I made millions here eight years ago. And now nobody even gives me a call. And the reason is because all this content from back then needs to be refreshed, recycle optimized, presented in a different way. So what was working eight years ago has no relevance for today, we can’t go back and say let’s, I want this situation again, because the entire world has changed multiple times in the meantime. So we have a lot of people who want to go back. And we need to really educate them and say, Look, today is a different situation, let’s audit what we still can use and leverage from everything that’s in there. And there’s a lot of work in there. And we literally had someone trashed 800 different blog posts written over nine years, because they had no relevance anymore. And it’s really hard a hard pill to swallow a tough pill to swallow, really, because it’s just so much work going into this. But if it’s not relevant, you can’t expect the results anymore. And Google doesn’t care that you were one of the first one eight years ago, they care about the user experience of a search user today wants to find out the height of the Eiffel Tower.

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:58

Yeah, absolutely. We gotta kill those sacred cows, right? People think, Oh, I put all this work into whatever was real. And you make a couple of important points there one about, I think the state of overwhelm that a lot of particularly small businesses, consultancies, you know, small groups of professionals or whatever, feel around, what do we measure? How do we look at the right things? How do we interpret Google Analytics or any other analytics program that isn’t filtered through something that simplifies it and summarizes it for us, right. And then this concept around content needs to be refreshed, recycled and updated, we cannot rely on content that we built years ago, we just can’t for the folks that think, you know, because I think a lot of people are in a position, particularly in the small business world where they think like, Okay, do I only invest in this kind of support? If I’m also running ads and driving traffic beyond basic Google searches, right? Like, at what level? And I have no idea, you know, what the investment is like to work with somebody like yourself, but where do people start? If you’re, if you’re talking to somebody that’s like, you know, they need help, you know, that probably a little bit of SEO support would help them go a long way. Where do you start with them?

Gert Mellak  38:29

There are different levels is an excellent question are different levels. So very often, we start people off with what we call a quick call, it definitely has something by the way, I would really love to give away to your listeners. And it’s $100 product on our website, people usually buy this, but I’m happy to give this away because it just helps people so much. It’s the first assessment we do on the website. I get personally on a call with everybody. And we take out their website on a screen share and say, Look, this is the situation. This is how I think people are going to behave on this website, when they come from search. This is what you rank for. etc. So this gives people a really, really good idea about where to start. And from there, we have different people at different levels. We work with small curry, repair shops, and we work with eight figure international corporations, because their strategies overall are the same. Just break them down and really try to get a good understanding about the individual business and their needs. And then adapt our toolkit and our team to what a procedure particular business needs. And some businesses, for example, come to us and say, let’s set me up for success because I want to get into this SEO game. I want to make sure that we start leveraging this. I can’t be committing resources on an ongoing basis but set me up for success and we might be doing a three four month workshop. Make sure they their team, understand how this works. We get the site fixed, do the most next most important things help them define a content creation process and that topic selection process that makes sense. And maybe they check in with us a few months later and say, Can you do another assessment, let’s see where we are, etc. And then we have people where we work with their teams actually. And they might have a couple of bas or train them on a zoom call. So they know how this works. And we just on a regular basis, we have our platform connected on a regular basis, we give them like leading tasks, I would say, right, where we say, Look, if you have free capacity to work on other things, but we want you to do these three, four things in the next couple of weeks. And two weeks later, we lined the next things up, like similar to personal trainer, the gym that says you do these reps and don’t eat chocolate, we do the similar thing and do your your your bike riding etc, that’s fine. But I want you to lift X amount of weight and do so many reps, just to make sure that because I know that this is going to help you move forward. SEO is a long game, this is not an instant result, it’s a long game, we need to definitely invest consistently in so it’s not something you can just get to the set, get set up for success here in a month or two. And then forget about it. If you commit to SEO, we can definitely already do something with small businesses are in a one time fashion and like a one time project. Ideally, you have someone either in your team or an external agency you really trust not easy to find an external agency you really trust to look after you a little bit. Because we just have the tools we pay 1000s of dollars in tools and analysis broken, and trainings and courses, etc. To stay up to date in this fast moving industry. And it’s not easy to keep up with it. Right. So once you are at a position where because Okay, part of the marketing budget, we can dedicate to SEO to just maintain an organic pillar without paying for every click and being at the mercy of Facebook’s ad costs in the last quarter of the year. And things like those, it’s always a fun time for people invest in ads, it’s definitely worth it isn’t going to get the best results. So even if you still continue to run as most of our clients eventually add ads to their channels, many startups with SEO, but eventually I think it’s a good idea to be present in multiple platforms and also leverage ads where it makes sense. But you ultimately get a lower cost per acquisition or cost per lead. Because you just average it out with a paid channels and essentially free organic channel and get a lower cost per acquisition for a new client, which ultimately helps to scale with a lower budget.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:34

Well, and you’ve done the foundational work, if you’re working with somebody like yourself or company, you know, like yours, to make sure that the content is right that you you know, you have something that will convert or do its job. Whereas I think a lot of people can waste money throwing, throwing money at ad spend, and not having fixed the underlying problem to begin with. 

Gert Mellak  42:59

Absolutely. And you can also waste money with SEO right if you work on the wrong things that have zero impact. I had a client today literally telling me they went through 200 images and updated their text, etc. Which is not a fun task to do. It’s a frustrating task for an assistant to work on probably cost a few $100 to get this done. In their particular situation in their particular industry, this was the worst use of their time. On a different website, different industry, this would have been something I would have suggested. But it’s really hard. If this is not your industry, you are making a lot of decisions that are going to have have an a negative impact you don’t, you’re never going to know, you’re never going to have the tools to measure. If this was a good idea, you’re never going to know, if there was something you’re missing the really the opportunity costs because in this time this person could have optimized for articles that could have driven more conversions to your site. So all these things, you really don’t know them, right. So you make them some decisions because of some article you have read, which seems to be a good idea. But everything is like standard operating procedure across all the industries. And this is never a good idea to follow.

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:10

Now in your point about the opportunity cost and basically the blind leading the blind right around like go do this strategy. You know, it’s just so important that if we are committing to learning, SEO, improving our SEO that we get the laser focus and advice of somebody who knows what they’re doing so that when we are putting effort into that area, we’re doing it in the right way, you know, in the right order. And yeah, it just I think that the importance of that just can’t be overstated. Stop wasting time. Get the right support for a complex area so that you know you’re doing a strategy that’s ultimately going to result in some wins long term.

Gert Mellak  44:58

Exactly. And also even pick finger paddles? Well as sometimes we get people who want who are selling iPhone cases they want to rank whenever somebody types in iPhone, right? It’s not going to happen anywhere near right. But they keep adding money to throwing money at it keep investing and it’s not happening. They get frustrated after two years. They say, look, SEO doesn’t work. It does work, you’re just picking the wrong battle. I’m not going to run a marathon tomorrow, without preparation. Right? So if I start I’m going to get frustrated after a few kilometres probably. Right. So I need to prepare for things and see what is the right thing to do at the stage I’m at. So I’m not asking for too much. And you can get a very long way with the right strategies, even at the very initial stage, just being consistently working on the right things.

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:48

Yeah, I love that. Sounds like you’ve got experience working across industries, right, with a variety of sizes of business, you said that you’ve got products and supports that will help a really small business, right, that has a limited budget versus those who are more established, they’ve got a bigger marketing budget. They know SEO is important, and they can prioritize it. Exactly. Yeah. Well, folks, you’ve heard it here. If you’re not already running to do Gert’s quick audit, you’re crazy. I can’t believe he’s offering a one on one service for free. I’m gonna sign myself up for that I have more to learn in this area. And it’s, it’s one of those things that for many of us, we don’t need 2000 new clients, right, like, we might just need a couple dozen in a year. And so, you know, I think that a bit of a small bit of effort probably goes a long way in this regard, and particularly when we’re doing the right strategies. Gert, where do you like to send people? Where do you like to connect online?

Gert Mellak  46:51

Awesome. So the ideal and daily people just head over to There’s a quick audit button, we’re going to make sure that you on your website have a coupon code people can use to get this for free. And another option is just sending me an email, Drop me a line, tell me you come from this podcast. And I’m going to make sure you get the coupon code. And then just getting an assessment and get a first idea, right, I was at the gym the other day got us an assessment from a personal trainer. And I said, Look, this is good. This is bad, more bad than good. So I need to do something about it. But at least you know where you are. Right? And you know, what is it actually that separates you from being able to compete with some people that come up on Google all the time. And the second, this is the roadmap this can be faster or take a little bit longer. But at least you know, this is the roadmap and are going to be certain things you can do today. And there are going to be certain things that are going to take a few months of consistent effort from an agency from yourself from both in combination, but at least you know you’re heading in the right direction.

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:57

I love that. Well, I’m so grateful that such a generous offer huge thank you to you for being here today sharing all of your expertise and and then making a generous offer like that. So folks, if you’re listening, hop over to, we are going to share all of Gert’s contact information, the coupon code to be able to get that free $100 assessment. Just go get it done. It’s a new year, you need to layer on some new strategies in your business. It’s time. Gert, what final takeaway or advice would you like to leave our listeners with today?

Gert Mellak  48:35

Focus on conversions, not traffic. Make sure you have the data to make this decision.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:40

Huge. Yeah, don’t waste your time. Gert, thank you. I really appreciate you. I really look forward to being in touch.

Gert Mellak  48:47

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to talk.

GGGB Outro  48:50

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.