September 14th, 2021
With Jane Sagalovich, CFA, a business strategist and scaling mentor who is the founder of Scale Your Genius® where she is on a mission to rid the world of Crappy Online Courses™. Jane has helped hundreds of in-demand professionals create their online courses and programs with clarity, confidence, and ease. After 15 years in strategic roles for Fortune-500 companies that looked great on paper but left her heart wanting more, she left to build a business with a desire to help more people in less time. She now helps in-demand professionals serve as big as they desire and make a lot more money without sacrificing family time or risking burnout.
Join us for this conversation where Jane shares about her background as an immigrant from Ukraine who came to the US at age 10, and the origins of her interest in business. You’ll hear about her transition out of the corporate world and leaving a “dream job” to make a leap into entrepreneurship. She shares about what she learned in attempting to launch and build a business as part of a partnership, and what led to her finally going out on her own.
Jane shares with us how she selected her ideal clients, and how she helps them cross the bridge from traditional business and professional practices to a more creative, profitable level in business. We talk about what challenges are in the way, how uncomfortable it can be to have “beginner’s mind” if you are an established service provider or professional, and the vision to keep in mind that will help you move through the discomfort.
Finally, learn how Jane helps her clients create a course that will change lives, some of the biggest mistakes people make in creating their first online course, and how Jane helps her clients navigate what to include in their course, which involves some of the most important decision making on a course creation journey.
Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:
- There is a bridge to a more creative, profitable business.
- Regarding a partnership: “There was always someone else to blame.”
- Getting clear on who I was not the best fit for was an important part of the process.
- The power of “beginner’s mind.”
- Mapping out what your dream business looks like.
Check out these highlights:
- 5:15 Hear Jane describe coming from a communist regime to America and how it influenced her thoughts on business.
- 14:43 Hear Jane share about what went wrong in Jane’s initial partnership that resulted in not making money or creating clients.
- 27:00 Hear how Jane narrowed down her ideal client niche.
- 48:42 Listen to Jane discuss pricing for her client’s programs, and the correlation between the amount someone invests in a course and their likelihood to complete it.
How to get in touch with Jane:
On social media:
Find out more about Jane and her FREE GIFT: 30K Blueprint Bootcamp, by visiting her website here.
Imperfect Show Notes
We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.
GGGB Intro 00:00
Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™.
Jane Sagalovich 00:05
And every single person’s like, you could do this on your own, like you can and need to do it on your own. You have like you’ve really you actually do have a vision, you just don’t see it. And so step one, I think is to allow, allow the process but also toxic people and see what they see in you that you’re not able to see in yourself. I did not see myself as an entrepreneur at all and it took multiple other people’s telling me that I can be one for that to become even a glimmer of possibility for me.
GGGB Intro 00:40
The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business hand life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.
Heather Pearce Campbell 01:13
Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, helping entrepreneurs throughout the US and around the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™ today. I am so excited to bring you my friend Jane and Jane, how do you say your last name?
Jane Sagalovich 01:37
It is sag-a-lovich. So phonetically, exactly what it looks like but people look at it and get scared.
Heather Pearce Campbell 01:43
I bet they get all kinds of creative with that. So Jane Sagalovich is here and I’m so excited for you to hear from Jane. She’s got an area of expertise and focus that I love that is really important to those of us in the online space. So, Jane, I’m super excited about this conversation.
Jane Sagalovich 02:03
Thank you so much, Heather. I’m really I’m really excited to be here too.
Heather Pearce Campbell 02:06
Yeah, absolutely. So for folks who don’t know Jane, Jane is a business strategist and scaling mentor and is the founder of scale your genius, where she is on a mission to rid the world of crappy online courses. I love that. I think anybody listening can raise their hand the number of times they’ve been through a crappy online course. Jane has helped hundreds of in demand professionals create their online courses and programs with clarity, confidence and ease. After 15 years in strategic roles for Fortune 500 companies that looked great on paper, but left her heart wanting more. She loved to build a business with a desire to help more people in less time, she now helps in demand professionals serve as big as they desire and make a lot more money without sacrificing family time or risk of or risking burnout. Dane is based in Colorado and James, tell me about the CFA after your name is that in the financial space,
Jane Sagalovich 03:09
It is in the financial space. It is the Chartered Financial Analyst designation it is three years of exams from hell, and not something I recommend to people who enjoy a social life. But I did this, it’s been 10 years ago since I did mine. And um, you know, like I, the same way I look at any kind of education or credentialing, it’s all just a little layer that all goes into the big bubble of wisdom we all have. So I never did any work specifically for that profession. That would be investment advisors, fund managers, things like that. But I do find that just having an in depth understanding of financial markets, investment policy and things like that helps me work with business owners just in a in a different way. It’s not something I base them on, but I know enough about to know if they’re not moving in the right direction.
Heather Pearce Campbell 03:59
Right? Well, and the thing I say about an education wherever it is, however it happens, whatever topic because there’s some statistic that shows that like the majority of college graduates never even end up working in the field that they studied, right. And so I think people get really concerned about this, like, Oh, well, I got my education and you know, X, Y or Z and then they don’t end up working in that field. And like you said, I think an education in any of these areas really informs you know, other ways that we can bring support and knowledge and whatever to any of our positions or clients etc. I didn’t know if that had to do with your corporate work.
Jane Sagalovich 04:39
Yeah, and not even directly there either. I know one of the things about me like, I know there’s people who hate tests I’ve always loved test I’ve always been really good at says, oh, you’re a lawyer, so you have to be in the same camp. good at it. And so it was one I’m like, Well, I had a corporate job I I liked at the time, but I was feeling a little bored. And so I’m like, What else can I do? Do with my brain. Totally. It was more of that.
Heather Pearce Campbell 05:02
I love it keeping your, your brain busy, like so. So let’s dig into that brain. Talk to us about I want to know, what your pathway into corporate was what was interesting about that, like how you chose that path at first?
Jane Sagalovich 05:15
Absolutely. So So what I did with my corporate career, so I’m an immigrant from Ukraine, my family moved to the United States when I was 10 years old. So I wasn’t part of the decision making or the logistical nightmare that they had to deal with. But I was, I came here when I was 10, when middle school and coming from a communist regime into America, business, for me is what really differentiated it and what made it such a cool place. It was like all these unlimited opportunities. So in Ukraine, the Soviet Union, there was no private business was just not a thing. Everything was government owned. And so I just I don’t remember the decision point. But at some point, I decided business was going to be it. So my first job in high school was Oppenheimer funds. It’s a mutual funds company that actually just got bought out by another company. So all my friends are working in ice cream shops, and Victoria’s Secret and like clothing stores, and I’m, I’m behind a computer on spreadsheets at 16 years old. So
Heather Pearce Campbell 06:09
Oh, so how did you how did you apply for and like, find that job? How did you know that? That was interesting to you at the time? I
Jane Sagalovich 06:17
don’t remember. I don’t, I’m guessing it was would have been in the newspaper. I mean, this was the late 90, right, mid 90s. Really, so probably looked the newspaper. And I was so I was so excited to make my own money. I started babysitting. As soon as I could. I had applied for some jobs before I turned 16. And I went through the interview process. And then they had to tell me that and then they asked me how old I was. And I told them 15. And they’re like, well, come back next year. So I just really wanted the independence, the income, and you known as refugees, my fate, my family was still in the process of getting their careers on track to a new in a new country in a new economy and a new skill set. And so, you know, there wasn’t necessarily that much disposable money for me to play with. And I wanted all of it. So
Heather Pearce Campbell 07:05
it is interesting, because I do like to hear like, Where did people’s entrepreneurial bugs start? Right? Because I think some people do just really have it naturally in them and others, there’s a story or a turning point or some shifts that happen. So that’s really fun to know about.
Jane Sagalovich 07:21
Yeah, so I’ll maybe I’ll actually shift it. So that was not entrepreneurial. All right. So that was corporate, I wanted big business. One of my dream jobs was working for Ralph Lauren. So I wanted like as American as you can get, basically. And so it’s interesting, you point out the entrepreneurship. So I got my MBA 15 years ago now. But I remember just there was an entrepreneurship track. And I was like, well, who would want to be an entrepreneur? That just sounds so silly, you can have an amazing job with benefits and climb the corporate ladder and have all this procedure. Why would somebody want to be an entrepreneur? So it was definitely something that I didn’t get until I got and then it was a light switch flips. And that was literally overnight, the end of my corporate career. Wow. So that was only eight years ago.
Heather Pearce Campbell 08:10
20 years into my total career? No, that’s amazing. Well, and the part that I was thinking was fairly entrepreneurial was you going out and getting a job, you know, online in the 90s? Right, working for Oppenheimer as a teenager. That downside, the scope, I think of what most teenagers are looking for,
Jane Sagalovich 08:28
yeah. And when you see it that way to kind of looking back at it, I was never in the box. Right is and one of the things that I think makes me a good entrepreneur and made me not as good. Well, I was an amazing corporate employer, as an employee as an employee. But inside I was I wasn’t as happy was that I was. So out of the box. I didn’t want to follow the rules. And so I was able to do it until I couldn’t anymore.
Heather Pearce Campbell 08:48
Yeah. Oh, that theme, I think shows up time and time again, I can relate to that, like, just not being a great. I mean, I believe in certain rules, right? things that keep us safe, and you know, things that help society run more smoothly, all of that, but following a rule just for the sake of following a rule like No, and I think a lot of entrepreneurs are that way. They end up just realizing like, Hmm, I don’t make a very good employee, because I want to do things my own way, or I want to have the control or I you know, whatever. Mm hmm. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about that pathway, that ramp out of it sounds like it was a fairly quick decision out of the corporate world into real entrepreneurship for you.
Jane Sagalovich 09:32
Yeah, absolutely. And so I was it was literally one day woke up and I’m like, why am I doing this? So I was in a corporate job. That is one of those jobs that people really brag about. It was an amazing, very well regarded company, I had a flexible schedule, we had an onsite gem personal trainers and on site cafeteria, and it was but it was still like a small it wasn’t like a Googleplex or anything it was there was just give us about 50 employees on site. So All company, we had private jets on site that we could go, you know, when when there was work travel, we could take those. And it was just one of those things that I think when you think corporate job, it is the pinnacle. And here I was, at least, you know, I don’t want to say for everybody, but for me, and so here I was in this job, and I was still miserable. And so when I was thinking about what’s next, I knew wasn’t gonna be another job. Because there was no, there was really nowhere else I can go. Because the things that made me unhappy were the things of like, I feel like I’m being put in a box, I feel like there are rules that I just can’t play, I can’t be my best self within within those kind of environments. And so it was literally just one day, I was like, I’m done, I can’t be here anymore. I had a conversation with my boss, just you know, and there really wasn’t anything else that kind of made sense. You know, there’s always the conversation of like, Can we do anything here in the company, and they’re, you know, my dissatisfaction wasn’t with my specific role, or with any specific person or anything like that. It really was, I was able to see how structural it was. And so I left, a friend of mine, who was a career consultant was starting another consulting firm at that time, and I’m like, Well, why don’t I just come hang out with like, let me just come through this with you. It wasn’t very formalized. It wasn’t very thought through, I thankfully had a lot of savings. So I really wasn’t worried financially at the time, because I thought that when you start a new business, it’s like maybe a month or two until you start making a lot of money. So that was a silly assumption that, you know, proved out to be very, very false, in hindsight. But the cool thing was, because I was able to do it with somebody who’s done it before, I think it took a lot of my fear out of it. And it gave me some maybe even false sense of security that this is okay, because I’m not sure how much longer would have taken me to say that I can be an entrepreneur on my own.
Heather Pearce Campbell 11:56
Yeah, yeah. Well, you had something else it sounds like to step into, right, which I think can be helpful for a lot of people when they’re making a switch. It’s really hard to cross a bridge when you don’t know what, where the bridge is going. Huh,
Jane Sagalovich 12:09
exactly, exactly. And so with what then got me to today, so we had that business for about four years, that business imploded one day on a personal level. And that was the first time that I was without a bridge. So I was truly the knees the phrase on out on the street, I wasn’t, you know, physically out on the street. But mentally, career wise, that was the first time in my entire career that I just felt completely lost and unsure and had absolutely no idea what to do. I went from corporate to adjust to a partnership to now just like, okay, can’t go back to corporate. I know, it’s safe. But I remember. So I wanted to replace my partner. That was my first thought was like, okay, the partner, you know, it ended for whatever reason, but I enjoyed being part of a partnership, we did a really brilliant work together. I just need a new partner. Yeah. But I have so many. Just the way that partnership ended, I had almost like PTSD around it that, like there was no way I was going to trust another person to be such an important role of my business of my future. And so I had no choice but to start my own business. And so you know, people talk about like, they’ve always known they’re going to be their own boss, they’re gonna be an entrepreneur, like, I just feel like I was kind of shoved into it. And thank God I did, because I, you know, what I’m doing today just feel so so right. But it took so many funky events to get here. And I think the wrote, you know, I would have, I would have not predicted this even six years ago.
Heather Pearce Campbell 13:36
Right? Well, and so often that’s the case, we look backwards, and it’s like, oh, we see what it took to get where we are, but we couldn’t have projected that path. Talk to us. And we don’t have to belabor the point. But I am curious about this business breakup only because it’s a really common thing, right. And I think it’s important to talk about, you know, what we have to learn through scenarios like that, how we might do things differently, you know, and even, like, you say, like, see the benefit? And like, Oh, well, that’s what it took to get me maybe to do my own thing, right? So sometimes, and I tell people this when, when we’re talking about, for example, really difficult client scenarios. Sometimes that is just what it takes for us to learn what our business boundaries are, what our business policies are going to be like new systems that are really going to serve us and our teams and our clients. Right. And sometimes we don’t learn those lessons or create those things without having to go through some of those circumstances.
Jane Sagalovich 14:42
Absolutely. I’ll say I’ll start with the funniest part of our business business journey with my partner and I. So it was a few months into it. And like I mentioned, I thought it was gonna be a month or two to make money and we were not getting clients. So we really thought the other person was doing the sales the entire time. We would meet we would talk about stuff, we took notes, nobody was doing the sales. So you know, this, you know, in service provider world when we are x, you know, I’ve never been in a sales role. I’ve always actually, in my corporate roles, I’ve always been the client. So if there was, would be brokers and bankers and other people where I was the clients, I was always on the other side of this of this exchange value exchange. And so I wasn’t about to do it. And he had sales, he and his prior businesses had other people doing the sales. And so we never had the explicit conversation of who exactly is responsible for what so that’s really point number one is have really, really clear understanding of who is doing what, and what their key responsibilities are. And I think there was a lot of ns, you know, both of us had good reasons to think what we were thought, right. But in practice, it became a business that didn’t work in the beginning. So then then we’d had the conversation, and then we created some rules, but it was never, you know, was it was had, we had that conversation before we started the business. I don’t know if we would have even had it. I’m glad I was in it. I learned so much. But we were not. We had enough overlapping skills. But there was a lot of skills we didn’t, didn’t have an I think because there were two people, there was always somebody else to blame, like in a way that all those skills I had to learn on my own as a solo business owner until I was able to hire people to support me. And so it was obvious when it was just me. But I think when there were two of us, it was easy to say the other person is going to do this, I don’t have to
Heather Pearce Campbell 16:34
well in regardless, like when I think about people, whether they’re in a partnership, whether they’re trying to develop a small team, right? It gets back to this idea of how do you communicate essential information, and create systems for a business that allow it to operate? And yeah, that communication piece can really get people stumped. I do a training on joint venture partnerships and collaboration. And one of the things that I have this, like massive checklist, it’s like six pages long. And I tell people like it doesn’t really matter the kind of partnership you’re going to get into whether it’s a, you know, project based joint venture, or whether it’s a larger joint venture, if you walk through this checklist, you will be doing that communication work in advance of being forced to do it down the road, right, where you’re like, wait, we never talked about this, or, you know, what happens if something really dramatic happens in somebody’s life, you know, that might result in a different outcome of how you exit that partnership than if somebody just gets bored and walks away?
Jane Sagalovich 17:43
Absolutely, yeah. And I think you know, and I’ve always been a big proponent of legal contracts and things like that I’ve come out of my corporate work involved a lot I deal so there were there were lawyers all around and, and I loved what I loved about the contracts is that it forces that conversation. It’s exactly what you say it’s you can’t create a contract, right? Without having the conversation.
Heather Pearce Campbell 18:04
Totally. When when you sit down to put basically clarity down on paper, you you have to have the conversation in order to get clear. And so that’s that’s exactly the role of a good contract is just to solidify what has already been discussed. Moving some people, I mean, just to go sideways, a little bit into the legal world, some people want to use contracts as a substitute for that conversation. Right? Let them lawyers deal with it. Totally. Or, you know, I’m just gonna send you this contract over even though we didn’t really talk about all the stuff that’s in there. Right. So yeah, yeah. So you transitioned out of that scenario into your own work. I’m curious because now you deal I think largely with professionals, right, helping them get innovative, get creative with an online business, create courses, programs, how he talked to me a little bit about that time in, you know, leaving and going on your own to then really defining your niche creating what it is that you’re up to. Now, how long did that take? What did that process look like?
Jane Sagalovich 19:14
It’s still ongoing. Right? Right. It’s, um, yeah, it’s the forever process. So the first so when, when our partnership imploded, it was February, it was February 26. Because you know, those days you never forget. And I had, in March of that year, I happened to have this amazing rich entrepreneur retreat in Palm Springs already on my calendar. And so I kind of just survived until that point, like, I don’t know, saving, like, I’ll be okay financially for a little while, but it was really, you. I said it again, I’m gonna say it again. Cuz it was such a huge point for me. It truly was for the first time in my career, I felt completely, totally lost. Like I really had zero vision for what I wanted to do. And so in our last year of the business I had with my partner, we were creating at a program. So he had with a group consulting model that was kind of his brainchild. And given how many online courses I took as a clients, as you know, for my own development, we were melding our ideas together into a really powerful online program. So I was playing in that online space. But I didn’t think that I could do it, it was still kind of me it was it was like I was part of the idea person, but I was still held in my mind, I was still helping somebody else do it. So I came to this entrepreneur retreat, and I started talking, I was talking to the people and like, here’s what I was doing before. Do you know anybody that would be a really good replacement partner, because I was still in that space. And every single person’s like, you could do this on your own, like you can and need to do it on your own, you have like, you’ve really, you actually do have a vision, you just don’t see it. And so step one, I think is to allow, allow the process, but also to talk to people and see what they see in you that you’re not able to see in yourself. I did not see myself as an entrepreneur at all, and it took multiple other people’s telling me that I can be one for that to become even a glimmer of possibility for me. Hmm,
Heather Pearce Campbell 21:10
well, we’re so you know, just reminds me, there’s a conversation that I had with somebody else on the podcast, and he talked about how we’re basically you know, all we see is the trees, not the forest, we’re too close to our material, our content, our stories, right? Or like, we can’t, we don’t have the perspective that other people have to give us about ourselves, you know, about whether we like talk too much about a single topic, right? All these things that we might be a little bit myopic about,
Jane Sagalovich 21:40
yeah, in the bar to like, right. I’m like, Well, if I’m going to be an entrepreneur, like, I’m not Elan Musk, like Who am I? So then I’m not looking at the reality of what is, you know, what is an entrepreneur? I’m looking at the top entrepreneurs of all time and saying, Well, if I’m not bad, then I can’t be this right?
Heather Pearce Campbell 21:55
Yeah, no, I think that’s a really common common type of thought pattern, right? And that the whole imposter syndrome and how am I to be doing this? And who am I to try to launch this into the world, right? And sometimes, we just have to get over ourselves, but the pathway there might be talking to other people about Exactly, exactly. Okay, let’s take a pause and hear briefly from today’s sponsor. Today’s sponsor is Melanie Benson, the authority amplifier. Melanie is also the host of the amplify your success podcast. She can be found online at Melanie benson.com. Melanie’s superpower is helping entrepreneurs like you identify and activate their own unique positioning to become the highly paid authority that their ideal client knows likes and trusts. After spending 21 years guiding talented entrepreneurs to success and 15 years in fortune 500 companies, Melanie brings a unique integration of proven success, business acumen and soulful intuition to each client. clients who work her amplify roadmap can see a 5x growth within the first 90 days, you can find out about the amplifi roadmap and more at Melanie Benson calm. She has an amazing array of free tools and additional resources that will help you in building and scaling your business quickly creating Magnetic Messaging and attracting exactly the right client. If you visit Melanie Benson calm, you currently get access to 10 revenue rush strategies, where you can discover the 10 fastest ways to quickly increase cash flow and develop a more profitable business. This is a tool that has worked for almost 5000 clients already, again, visit Melanie benson.com. And now back to today’s amazing guest.
Jane Sagalovich 24:03
So then my neck so then I was you know, I was going down the process, who do I want to serve? What is the exact offering. And at the first idea for an ideal client that came to me is like the spiritual entrepreneurs, the people with these beautiful gifts and they’re like energy workers and all these other people. And it sounded so amazing in theory, but here’s where market research comes in. I started talking to them and our reach spoke such different languages that we were just never getting to a point where we understood each other. And I work with creatives. But there’s there’s to me just you know if you look at the Create, I don’t I don’t even know what the right spectrum is. But I’ll call it the creative to analytical to analytical electrum there is a point somewhere I’m pretty on the analytical side. There’s a point somewhere where we’re just we’re not talking to each other. Yeah. And so I was having a lot of conversations where we just were not understanding each other and so I realized that you know, So, what I was thinking there’s like, here’s all these people, these beautiful gifts, but zero business acumen, I can help them because I have all the business acumen, right. And so the thesis wasn’t wrong, I just needed to move up the logical line a little bit to the people that maybe you know, their level of business acumen varies, but there have some degrees, they’ve done kind of some of the critical thinking work, they understand generally, what business is all about where it was just a little bit closer. And then we can get on the same page about what we want the outcome to be, and what the journey to that outcome would look like and take.
Heather Pearce Campbell 25:39
Well, that it’s interesting, because that topic around even having a balanced perspective, what I have found is that people have to know, in order to build any kind of successful business, you have to know what’s missing, you have to know what skills you don’t bring to the table, you have to know what your business requires you, you have to know, you have to be able to look at the bigger picture and say, Oh, I need to fill these other gaps, right. And if people don’t even have that perspective, they don’t know they have a problem. They mean, and even if they are starting to understand like, Oh, I don’t have, you know, structure or support or a sale system or whatever, if if they are not decisive enough, or if you know, there can be some other factors that play into how they approach the world. That’s not a challenging fit.
Jane Sagalovich 26:32
Yeah. And I’ve seen some business coaches out there who do very well working with that specific client avatar, who I just like, and I see what they say, I’m like, Whoa, I would have like, that’s just not the way my brain works. So yeah, I think just being clear on who I’m just not the best fit for was a big important part of that process.
Heather Pearce Campbell 26:51
So you decided, Okay, not that group? How did you then move along to find the professionals?
Jane Sagalovich 26:58
Yeah, then I went to, you know, my thought process was, so I help people create online courses, which basically means I help them have an efficient way of getting their work out there to as many people as possible. So I was thinking, like, who gets their work out to people in an inefficient manner. And so then I just started talking on my network, my first I did a beta group. In my group involved, I think we had a dietician, we had a lot of like, coach, a lot of people in the coaching space, I had one therapist in there, I had a photographer in there. And so just various, really a variety of topics of all kinds of service providers who just want a better way to do their work. And so then I got to really see it, all of those really were a great fit. And I think, you know, they want it to be a beta client, they wanted to work with me, they were interested in the model. And then I really, then I started narrowing it down is like who already has a business that is successful, that they have that they have, you know, proven Penicillium delivery model that is scalable, but they have a proven model, whatever it is, today, they have clients who with testimonials, they have their own reading, and yes,
Heather Pearce Campbell 28:03
they’re already delivering services. Yeah, they’re
Jane Sagalovich 28:06
already delivering services. They’re a business owner, they might have an assistant or a support team, they’re not brand new to all these things. And those are the people that I saw having the most success. So then when COVID happened last year, and I was already working with several therapists, I turned my attention towards the mental health and wellness professionals, because I just thought with everything going on in the world, those people were supporting so many people they needed to be supported to, and they needed a better way to do their work than just, you know, at that point telehealth or one on one work where the profit margins for a therapy practice are horrible compared to what they could do with other models. And so started working with therapists, and then that’s kind of a therapist wellness professionals kind of core but then I love anyone else who’s an amazing service provider. I work with quite a few lawyers, and then fun, random nichido service providers that I never knew existed. Right. And but I get to be exposed to that work.
Heather Pearce Campbell 29:01
Yeah, well, I’m glad to hear because, you know, I think one of the big takeaways from what you just said is that a lot of people have an idea of who they think their niche is going to be. Right? And then they test it, or they go try to take something to market and they realize like, Oh, that’s not it. And I think first of all, being really flexible in that phase of business and figuring out an offering is really key. And then and then just testing it, taking something really, you know, like you did and whether you’re beta testing it whatever else, really just seeing who shows up, who can I get results for and then going from there.
Jane Sagalovich 29:40
Yeah, and I feel like you know, testing can be I think in this space can sometimes be overdone. I think we assume we can get a lot more ads testing than we can I only say it’s not validated until it’s sold everything before that is theory. And for me valid like some of this initial client avatar validation is simply having conversations with these people and it’s pretty Be cleaner, when you start talking to somebody who’s not your person, it takes about 10 minutes to figure that out. And so this doesn’t have to be any kind of mass, recent mass market resources, just have conversations with a few people off that niche. And you’ll know that I got it, you know, I get on the phone with a therapist, and it’s like, instant match made in heaven. You know, we’re just like getting each other, we’re vibing on the same stuff we see. I think all this kind of coming to us like we see the world in a similar way. Right, we see the outcome and the vision, similarly, and the road to get there. We agree on what that could look like.
Heather Pearce Campbell 30:33
Totally. And, I mean, that’s really the key part of many businesses is is connecting with somebody who knows they have a problem. They know there’s a solution, and all they’re looking for is are you my solution? Right? And then it does feel like a match made in heaven if you have those dots for them.
Jane Sagalovich 30:54
Yeah, yeah. So I think it’s like letting letting the kind of the energetics drive you just those conversations.
Heather Pearce Campbell 30:59
I love that. So talk to us about so for the folks that you serve, what typically keeps them out of doing the thing that you help them do, right? Whether it’s innovate their business online, whether it’s expand from, you know, delivering services in a pretty traditional way to then, you know, creating a course or some online way of getting information out there. Talk to us about your experience. And what like, is that harder? Do you think for professionals and certain types of people to cross that bridge than others? And how do you help them do that?
Jane Sagalovich 31:37
Yeah, yeah, I love the question of is it hard or not, it’s, you know, the people that are going to succeed in this have to be okay, with a beginner’s mindset, again, so so people I work with are pretty advanced stages of their career. And depending on their journey in their business, up until that point, many of them may have just kind of been coasting for a while, right, they have the practice of doing well, their marketing is dialed in. It’s inefficient, their profit margin sucks. They’re not making they’re working a ton of hours. And so to pivot in this way, that for some, you know, depending online business, for some people could be a 180. For some people could just be incremental, there’s no you know, depending where they’re starting from, but it takes a decent amount of learning, and trial and error, and practicing and doing things you’re not good at, and messing a whole lot of things up. And that’s a mindset that people need to be okay with, to enter into taking their business to a new for them level, and the service professionals I work with, there’s not professional management teams, they’re going to be the ones driving the bus on this thing. I encourage them to have a support team, I encourage them to have assistance and tech people that you know, can be in the weeds. But they’re the ones who have to do a lot of new to them things. Yeah, that’s one of the things I see being really, really critical. And, you know, I’m gonna say this now, there’s no right or wrong answer to run your business, you can coast for the rest of your career, if that’s your choice, and that is not wrong at all. But for the people who do you want to make that shift? It’s being able to be that newbie, again, I think it’s so critical.
Heather Pearce Campbell 33:06
Well, it’s such a great point, that part about having a beginner’s mind, and also how uncomfortable that can be for somebody who’s really, really far down the path, right for most of us. And so, in addition to the beginner’s mind, you know, this idea that like things might just feel awkward or hard for a while. And even the online marketing space is very different than what a lot of these traditional service providers are used to talk to us about your experience in, actually, you know, getting them to show up online and kind of get over that hump, because I imagine that along with that beginner’s mind comes a fear of putting themselves out there in a new way.
Jane Sagalovich 33:50
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I see. You know, I see two very distinct group of people, I see the ones who, who I feel like it’s been bottled up. And as soon as they have something they can talk about so passionately about, like their newer course, or program, like they’re out there love gates, open, they had just enough direction from me to point to, like, help them package all of that in a way that resumes on social media or email, or whatever their choice of platform is, and they’re just going for it. Then there’s the ones who aren’t as comfortable, who have the imposter syndrome who have a lot of stuff to overcome. And, you know, I, it’s a process, right, no one’s gonna if that’s the mindset you have going to bed at night, there’s nothing I could see or do that’s going to shift that overnight. So it really is having a really clear vision of your clients on the other side of working with you. So what is that outcome for them after your program or one on one work or whatever it is, and just really keeping like allowing that to drive the discomfort like it’s okay to be uncomfortable. It’s okay to post something online and be like, Oh my god, was that the dumbest? Like is everyone gonna make fun of me now? Just to bring that along with the process, there’s mindset work that goes in it. But I think it all, it all comes down to, you’re doing this, you’re being uncomfortable so that these people, these hundreds of 1000s, or 1000s of people can now get the results you envision for them that they otherwise cans. And that has to drive you.
Heather Pearce Campbell 35:22
Yeah, well, it’s interesting, because the way that you describe that, right, and even the two camps of people, it’s a little bit like, and I think this is always true, there’s a tension between what we want, and the discomfort that it takes to get there, right. And so that tension has to be greater than the discomfort so that you’re moved into action and doing that. And for some people that’s built up for so long, it’s like they’ve already got some momentum, or some willingness to have momentum where others have to kind of build that as they go or, you know, trial and error it or whatever, and build some more of that confidence. It’s just, it’s so fun. I get so excited when I think about people getting information that they know is going to change the lives of their clients out to the world in a better, more efficient way. Mm hmm. What, talk to us about some of the results, like some of the you know, people have already walked down the path, what transformations Have you seen in their businesses, their services, their personal lives and their freedom? Talk to us a little bit about what it looks like looking backwards?
Jane Sagalovich 36:36
Yeah, yeah, one of the pieces of feedback, I guess, honestly, was not expecting thing, your program changed my life. multiple people have said that verbatim. And, you know, we create something that like, Yes, we have these big visions. But when people actually say that, it’s like, wait, what me is it is um, and so what I love eating the freedom, they explain it and freedom so so they take their inefficient business and they can still everyone I’ve worked with, loves their inefficient business enough to not want to get rid of it. Like there’s something you know, it’s their babies, the thing they’ve, you know, they’ve grown over years and decades. But it allows them to not look at that as the only way they serve and make money. So they have this business, that’s maybe 30% profit margin, which was just a different discussion, which is low, very low profit margin, and they are only you know, seeing one person at a time, but they love the work they’re doing, they’re, now they have the thing that makes money a lot more efficiently. Never effortless, never passive income, those things don’t exist almost ever. So I never, I never see this promise, but it’s much more efficient, they can work with a lot more people, their systems, like everything’s kind of dialed in for them a really good program, the creator just shows up for the coaching calls. And so they’re able to make the impact and money here. And so they really get to play as much or as little in their old business. And then it’s so then that becomes more fun to now instead of their old business having to be the thing that’s going to provide them the income and the satisfaction. Now they get to reframe that business into something that brings them joy in a different way. And then really manage what what the percentage of each they want to do.
Heather Pearce Campbell 38:21
Yeah, well, and even getting back to the analogy of the bridge, I think, for people that are, you know, are accustomed to a traditional practice of some kind, it’s really hard to cross a bridge to the other side, where you have to say goodbye, like 100%, close the door, goodbye on this whole thing. And you help them build the bridge, like oh, you can still kind of, you know, play over here. And you can come over here and do this other thing. And then you have all this space between these options to decide how you’re going to allocate your time or focus on your clients or or best balance your life.
Jane Sagalovich 38:59
Right, exactly, exactly. And then it’s the practical stuff, right? It’s like now we can pay for vacations with a family now I’m home with my kids now I’m not you know, I’m not just working 10 hour days all you know, seven days a week. Yeah, so it’s a very, very practical more money last time more, you know, more clients
Heather Pearce Campbell 39:16
totally well and and that’s the thing that’s so interesting, even about professionals really in any career industry, I think people often and I will say wrongly assume Oh, they got that degree or they achieved this level it like they’ve got it made right like that. They’ve just got it made and it’s it’s so interesting how you know running a professional practice of any kind can still be a real challenge for folks to meet their income needs to you know, pay for especially if they are self employed, right to put money away like to do all the things because you’re not only having to be an expert in your field, you’re also have To run a business and nobody teaches you that part.
Jane Sagalovich 40:03
Yeah, and a lot of the professional services model is to bring on associate. So now, you know, you know, you’re no longer doing the thing you got into the business for and now you’re also like this weird operations manager and you’re doing paperwork, and you’re doing all this stuff that has nothing to do with your happy place. Right?
Heather Pearce Campbell 40:19
I connected with a good friend the other day, and I just pinged him like, how are you doing? And he’s a chiropractor. And like, the number of times where he said he has said like, hiring is always the challenge, you know, hiring and because like you say, you can’t build those practices very well without just having a hiring plan.
Jane Sagalovich 40:38
Yeah, yeah. And people, you hire somebody, it’s not their practice. They don’t have that. They don’t care about it like you do. And then yeah, and they’re never an HR issues. It’s just there’s a lot. There’s a lot. Yes.
Heather Pearce Campbell 40:49
So give us some examples of the types of things you walk your clients through and helping them figure out like building an online course. Right? What does that look like?
Jane Sagalovich 41:00
Yeah, so I cover all stages of build, plan, plan for create, sell and deliver of their online course. And we start with the planning part, because I think everyone listening, if you think of the word online course, or online program, I’m guessing it’s going to mean something different to every single person listening, because it’s such a wide breadth is like, what does that even mean? And so, a lot of people just kind of see their competitors or other people doing the course. And they’re like, well, I’m going to create an online course. So at least they take a step back. Forget about courses for a minute, like, what is your dream practice actually look like? Like, forget the constraints? Forget what you think, is there as possible? What do you actually want to do? Like, how many hours do you want to work? Where do you want to work from? How many clients do you want to have? Like, what does that landscape look like for you. And so start with that in mind, because that will enable you then then to pick a course model. And there’s lots of different ways to do this, that will fit what your needs are. The second thing to get super clear on is what are those outcomes you want for your clients? Who do you want to help? And what do you want their life business, whatever it is to look like on the other side of working with you. So that’s the foundational step that I think a lot of people miss, and just start creating something that just ends up in being not saleable, or just really doesn’t get results. So we start with that foundation. And then I walk them down the process, we do marketing, and course creation at the same time. I always say if you launch a course, and no one knows you’re about to launch it, you’re gonna get zero clients, because no one knows to buy it. So marketing starts really just as early as course creation does. We take that parallel path I walk, so I have a course that walks them down that process step by step, and then that is supplemented by one on one support from me. And that’s on those calls between the two of us is where we can really brainstorm and customize and make sure that every whatever they’re creating is the perfect fit for them. And so they’re creating the course they’re marketing it, and then you know, we ready to launch and I support my clients until they get their first two paying clients. So we partner until we see results until we know the thing they treated works. It’s you know, there’s never any guarantees in the business world. But this model is the surest way I’ve seen people get two results. And the result being an online course it’s making a lot of money. Yeah, that’s amazing.
Heather Pearce Campbell 43:19
Well, even in the foundational piece of that, I would imagine somebody doing this without support. And not just somebody, lots and lots of people that attempt this without support, first of all, are doing things totally out of order. But second of all, are getting stuck around the mechanics of how you create something online,
Jane Sagalovich 43:41
right? Yeah, there’s so many sticking points a lot. Any there’s like hundreds of points along the way anyone can spin you out of out of process.
Heather Pearce Campbell 43:50
Well, in technology, you just look at like technology options, and what it actually takes to essentially build the logistics of an online business that does what you want it to do. You know, I think a lot of people need help with those components. And I can imagine that one of the other mistakes, especially from the types of folks that you serve, right professionals, people who are quite established is that they want to put everything into the course that’s it. Yeah. Yeah. So
Jane Sagalovich 44:20
it’s like a relationship therapist will want to do a relationship course. It’s like, what does that What does that even mean? are like, lawyers seem like there’s a lot I work with several divorce lawyers, and they’re like, well, divorce, that’s such a giant topic that covers so many different use cases and scenarios and types of people that it’s like, you gotta you gotta really, really, really narrow in
Heather Pearce Campbell 44:42
Yes, and like, I love your focus on defining the outcome. What is the transformation or the outcome for the client? Because when you take you know, the brain of a professional or somebody who’s quite a ways down, you know, I mean established in their career narrowing down is probably not going to be a real forte like they know the tools that they need when they need them. But when you’re talking about looking at a blank slate, putting information down, that’s going to help people, I bet they want to just throw the whole book at it.
Jane Sagalovich 45:14
And that exactly. And so that brings up the second point that even if their topic is narrow, that’s exactly they want to do. They want to like, oh, here’s my lat, you know, before I’m gonna let you do this legal thing, here’s my law degree in a course.
Heather Pearce Campbell 45:27
And that nothing, actually I mean, it’s, it’s both funny, because we know that that’s not the way to do it. But it’s also really endearing because my experience with folks in this space, and I think you and I serve a lot of the same people, their hearts are huge, they are in their profession to really, really serve and so overwhelming people with information, you know, in a first online course could be, you know, really stemmed from this beautiful place of wanting to serve and like, here’s all the information that will help you and how do you help them actually do the narrowing? How do you help them figure out what, what stays and what goes?
Jane Sagalovich 46:07
Yeah, part of the process we walk through is defining the clients beginning their destination, and then create a very specific step by step process. And each step has a specific outcome. So then the instruction is how little Can you give them for them to be able to achieve this outcome? We say lead with action. So every step you really you don’t want to just teach them stuff. Yeah, you want to have them do something. And so when you think of that thing you want them to do, what is the amount of information they need to have to be able to do that thing. And that’s it, I allow them using this in quotes for people listening, I allow people to have a toolbox in their course where they can brain dump all the stuff that they really, really, really want to put in the course, but doesn’t belong there. It just kind of makes them feel a little better. that there might be people who want to dive deeper, and it allows them it kind of gives everybody that peace of mind. Yes, it’s
Heather Pearce Campbell 47:04
like a library of additional resources. Clay, like brilliant, the course super, super targeted. So really, what you’re saying is you essentially help them reverse engineer the content based on the bare minimum that it takes to get a certain outcome or transformation.
Jane Sagalovich 47:22
Exactly. Yeah. How do you create content for that? How do you pick you know, this may be in your library of content that exists, this may be something you’re going to record new, people love to start with their library of content and saying, this is going to be my course, I encourage them to forget about the library of content as much as humanly possible while they create that journey, and then see what fits Where?
Heather Pearce Campbell 47:46
Oh, I mean, it sounds like you’ve first of all worked quite a few people through this process, like instructional design is challenging, I think for most of us, right? If we don’t have a lot of experience in actually creating content. That’s consumable. That’s easy. I mean, what are the statistics on how many people actually get to the end of an online course? It’s really bad, right? Yeah,
Jane Sagalovich 48:10
the statistics are horrible. And I’m guessing that they’re also not well, I love statistics. So anytime somebody, you know, anytime there’s a statistic in the coaching space, I’m like, No, there’s no way there’s data that backs this up.
Heather Pearce Campbell 48:22
Anecdotally, right, well, my guess is that it came from one of the cores platform provider. Yeah, right, that could actually track outcomes. I’m guessing that’s where it originated, although I have no idea which one provided that statistic
Jane Sagalovich 48:36
that you also have to say. So if I’m going to buy a course, for $17, the chances of me opening it and doing it are kind of zero if I buy a program, so my clients create programs for 2500. And up if I’m buying a program for 2500. And up, I’m probably going to finish it or at least at least do my best. And hope there’s not a you know, there’s not some friction in there that doesn’t allow me to so that’s a big part of it too, not to say, definitely not saying we should charge more so that people do it, right. There is a very strong correlation between how much somebody invests and the amount of energy and time and commitment they’re going to put into it.
Heather Pearce Campbell 49:12
Oh, certainly. And I think it also has to has to do with knowing who your people are, right? Because some I mean, and I’m sure you know, many people in the online space, who are like, Oh, you know, my sales are $3 million a year or whatever. But they don’t tell you they’ve got a 50% refund rate or what have you know, because they’re pricing as kind of a bottom feeder, get pricing for people that are going to rely on refunds in order to even purchase the course that’s a different level of client than what you’re talking about here.
Jane Sagalovich 49:44
Absolutely. And that’s when you know, we look at those statistics that’s that that those are probably the numbers that they’re looking at is like because that’s the mass data they would have is these these these much less expensive courses that have an enticing sales page and then not much behind them. Yeah,
Heather Pearce Campbell 50:01
yeah. So your philosophy is build something really well priced appropriately so that people are also getting the benefit of the transformation. And I love that you because I think a lot of people get this piece wrong. They spend so much time building it before they ever focus on the marketing. Mm hmm.
Jane Sagalovich 50:21
Yeah. Or before they start talking to the people. So if I created my whole course for you know, the energy create the energy healers, I would have, I would have to start a new course.
Heather Pearce Campbell 50:32
That’s right. Yeah. It’s the whole you know, marketing as you build or even before you build to see is this marketable? Yeah. Oh, my gosh, this is so fun. And I can tell already how much your clients benefit from your experience and walking them through this process. For folks that are listening, where do you like for people to check you out online?
Jane Sagalovich 50:52
Yeah, so I’m on all social media platforms, I love to make it convenient for whatever wherever people are. I’m on LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and I’m fairly kind of mostly consistent across all of them. This is not a social media strategy, anyone just that I just post the same stuff to all of themselves. I wish we could find out, you can find me where I’m at wherever my website is scaled, genius, calm. And there you can find my blogs, video recordings, information on how to work with me. And then for the listeners specifically, as I’m sitting you’ll just put the link in the show notes. They are really, really awesome. Boot Camp is a three day self paced boot camp that allows you to create the entire blueprint for your online course or program. It is self paced, it’s three days, 30 minute videos each day with the worksheets, and then you also have the option of a free call with me to review that blueprint at the end of the three days. So amazing. If like, this is something you’re thinking about doing creating a course or program, that blueprint will take you far. It’ll give you a really good foundation.
Heather Pearce Campbell 51:57
Yeah, so that sounds like a fabulous free gift. So if you are listening, and you are interested in creating an online course or checking out what would it look like to do that to help supplement your, your business and the work you’re already doing? Be sure to visit the show notes page at legal website warrior.com forward slash podcast. Jane, it’s been so fun to connect with you again. Ellie’s is always is and you’ve got a fun trip coming up and you know, hopefully Fingers crossed the rest of the summer. What a wild time. What final words do you have for our listeners, either like takeaways or action steps.
Jane Sagalovich 52:39
I think this I would love for everyone who’s not 100% happy with their business just to take a few minutes. And like forget everything you know about what’s possible or not possible and just like what is your dream business look like? And just give yourself a few minutes to just dream and get into that energy of like, actually, anything is possible for you. And you can create it all in. So what does that look like for you? It may not be courses or programs at all doesn’t matter. It’s just and then what is one step you can take in that direction? Because I see so many. I mean, I think we we start businesses with this vision of this is going to be so amazing. And the freedom and the impact and the money. And the reality is often so different. So if you’re one of the people for whom reality is different, like, what do you what do you want to do instead?
Heather Pearce Campbell 53:22
Yeah, I love that it inserts an element of fun back into something that maybe has stopped feeling fun for certain people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When we’re in it, it’s hard to see the time we Yeah, we can get a little myopic, like we’ve already talked about, Jane. Well, thank you so many gems in today’s conversation. I’m so glad you were able to join me. Thank you so much for having me on. You’re welcome. We’ll talk to you soon.
GGGB Intro 53:52
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.