With Jay Rooke, a business and personal development coach based in Sonoma, California. He’s an idea guy. He’s crazy creative, woo-woo and spiritual, but grounded in practical solutions. Think East Coast pragmatic meets West Coast progressive.

Jay’s “why” is that he always wanted to follow his passion to be an entrepreneur, so a decade ago he opened a restaurant, which quickly turned into an “involuntary non-profit” and he lost everything. While the experience nearly killed him, it inspired his evolution to serve first-time entrepreneurs by helping them launch their businesses without losing their savings and sanity. Jay is the host of Know Pain, Know Gain—Entrepreneurship Made Real, a podcast and nationally syndicated radio show.

His clients are often “spiritually curious” business owners pursuing their entrepreneurial journeys in search of personal fulfillment. They retain Jay to help them HARMONIZE their business growth, personal development and spiritual evolution.

Join us for this fun and insightful conversation on what it takes to embrace modern methods in business and let go of “traditional” tools that have been taught for years and are keeping entrepreneurs stuck, in order to follow your true north. We talk about the importance of integrating all parts of yourself in your business and staying on your path, despite road blocks and other people’s opinions, the journey of parenting, and self-compassion.

Jay shares numerous insights on pursuing his own true north, how he supports his clients who are navigating similar paths and moving away from convention in pursuit of following their own juicy inspiration.

>> Subscribe to Guts, Grit & Great Business on Apple Podcasts

Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • Listen to Jay share about his “perpetual search for resonance” which caused him to leave the corporate world.
  • On parenting: “There’s no ‘there’ there.” Jay: I wish we did a better job of teaching that.
  • When we are too hard on ourselves, we rob ourselves of extra energy and brainpower.

Check out these highlights:

  • 14:11 Listen to Jay talk about following magnetic attraction to something: “I really like the version of me I saw in my minds eye when I was pursuing those things.”
  • 19:08 Jay, on grit. “I think we’ll see more and more of this as covid plays out – this element of not quitting on yourself until you get there.”
  • 28:23 On parenting, and the efforts to “do your absolute best” vs accepting imperfection, acting from love, and looking at the positives.
  • 31:40 What Jay loves most about his work: watching people start to love themselves again. [You will love the way he describes this!]
  • 36:41 What we get wrong when using the “old tools” and shifting to a Care Bears approach – hear Jay talk about the “modern method” and how to stay on the right path.

How to get in touch with Jay

On social media:




Join Jay at his Podcast Know Pain Know Gain.

Learn more about Jay at his website, or schedule a Jay-Walking session here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro 0:00
Coming up today on Guts, Grit & Great Business.

Jay Rooke 0:04
It’s this element of not quitting on yourself until you get there. And so I think if I’ll own the courage moniker on any level, it’d be something around that, hey, I’m just gonna ride this out, hit me a bunch, you know, you’re not going to completely drop me. And I’m just gonna endure this until I get to wherever I’m going. And I think it’s particularly uncomfortable when the external validators are not showing up. You know, that, whether it be business success, or fulfillment, or whatever it might be, to keep walking forward in this unknown snowstorm of saying, Wait, why in the hell am I doing this? Why don’t I just plug back in and play safe and keep it simple and, and that will everything and so to continue to move in that direction that you know, resonant wise or soul wise, you’re being moved towards, and starting to pay more attention to the things that we’ve settled for that didn’t perhaps serve us the way we thought they did.

GGGB Intro 1:00
The Adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the guts, grit and great business podcast where endurance is required. Now here’s your host The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:32
Welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business. And this one, we are also streaming live. So it’s a bit of an experiment. Today I have my friend Jay Rooke, who is honestly one of my favorite people. We got to hang out a little bit a few years ago. And like I wish he lived down the street. That’s how I feel about you, Jay. So now you know the secret.

Jay Rooke 2:03
Beautiful. Thank you.

Heather Pearce Campbell 2:07
It’s super fun. Jay is a guy that everybody should know. He’s phenomenal. So first of all, his real background, his deep dark secret is that he’s also an attorney.

Jay Rooke 2:18
Don’t hate me. Don’t.

Heather Pearce Campbell 2:21
He’s smarter than I am. He got out of it years ago. So he’s an attorney, turned chef turned business coach like Jay has all the talents, which is a little unfair. And he is now a podcast host of a nationally syndicated podcast called No pain, no gain entrepreneurship made real. He is also you can find him at j is J rook calm. Yes, it is. Yeah. So j rook coaching. He’s a phenomenal, just soulful business coach, he brings everything to the table. One of the things that I like most about you, Jay, is you first of all, you’re very funny and witty, which I super appreciate anybody who can make me laugh. And you bring this just deep sense of like spirituality and otherness, to your conversations. And I think for people in business, it’s really, really important to be able to help them do that. So I’m super excited to introduce you today. Jay is also by the way, father to a set of twins that keep him busier than one armed paper hanger. Right. So I’m excited to chat a little bit about Parenthood. And he’s got some fun projects and experiments underway, I’m sure, especially with a new school year rolling in. So Jay, welcome. I’m so excited to chat with you today.

Jay Rooke 3:41
Hello, that was quite the intro. I’m gonna need to, you know, take the recording of that, and then have it used on my about page for the website, because you just articulated me better than I understand myself. So thank you. That was beautiful. And I’m flattered to be here. Thank you.

Heather Pearce Campbell 3:53
Oh, I love it. Well, I’m so happy to be connecting again. I mean, I’ve listened to your podcast, you’re an expert. I truthfully feel a little intimidated doing this, because I’m a podcast newbie. But I’m super excited. And I’ve been having a lot of fun with my podcast. And so I’m thrilled that you are on here talking with us today. Yeah. So share with us take us back a little bit. I want people to get a sense of the depth of your journey. And I you know, I cheated a little bit like I went and listened to your full one hour session that you did just about your journey, like out of law and through, you know, your days as a chef and a restaurant tour. And you know, all the things. Tell us give us like the quick overview of it, because I want listeners who are with us today to get kind of a flavor of who you are, but in your own words.

Jay Rooke 4:43
Sweet. I appreciate that. So some of the high notes, I guess would be I began my career as an attorney for the city of New York, working as a litigator and quickly learned that I had no interest in practicing law, and that that really wasn’t my fit and so that realization kind kicked off this, you know, roughly 20 year journey of trying to figure out how to find myself and where I fit in, in the larger picture. And I wish it went quicker. I can’t help but I don’t know. Yeah, right, totally. I think at the end of the day, it enrich the journey quite a bit. So leave la go to culinary school. Because obviously, I wanted to see how much educational debt I could rack up and then end up working at a culinary school for a while in the school’s restaurant. While ultimately leave that and begin a career in sales, which went from wine to pharmaceuticals, to technologies, a clean tech, big companies like NBC Sports and Merck pharmaceuticals down to small startups, and had a really interesting ride, I did well enough and was happy ish. But it just wasn’t my thing. And so there was I never understood how anybody around me could possibly be happy or fulfilled. And a lot of these corporate jobs, I was just dying on the vine, inside. And so it was this perpetual search for that resonance. And what it ultimately led me to do was to leave corporate again, and launch a restaurant, which quickly turned into a involuntary nonprofit as I describe it and lost everything.

Heather Pearce Campbell 6:20
Voluntary nonprofit. Yeah, like even on their best days, I think the margins for like a well run Western restaurant is like 10%, or 10%. That’s a good one. Yeah,

Jay Rooke 6:31
That’s right. Oh, well run one. Right. So yeah, so that that led me to entrepreneurship. And you might be saying like, well, it didn’t sound like you did very well. And I’m not sure that you should be coaching entrepreneurship. But you know, when I was doing my post mortem, what I learned was, I had all the parts, but I didn’t know how to think like an entrepreneur. And so that is what kind of parlayed my path into coaching. Where I what I wanted to do was help other people learn how to think differently about these things, so that they could pursue their passions and have that sense of fulfillment and move their way through the world without losing losing their savings and their sanity. So that kind of led me to where I’m at today and what I’m working on. And I’d say the additional wrinkle to it is in the last few years, I’ve really paid attention to how important bringing our full self to the table is in our entrepreneurial pursuits. And for me, that means weaving in the spiritual otherness side of ourselves that you were you were talking about into the equation and not compartmentalizing.

Heather Pearce Campbell 7:31
Yeah, so I just love that. And I feel like there’s been a theme lately and conversations that I’m having with folks on this specific point, like this tendency. I was talking with Alina Vincent the other day, and she was talking about how when she started her own, and she just published a book this week. And so there’s this whole backstory, and we were chatting a little bit about it. But she launched her her business coaching, essentially practice, she wasn’t calling herself a business coach. But, you know, I was telling everybody, when they came to the table like this brand new, she had no experience, you know, and for like four months, you couldn’t get a client, right. And it was because she was thinking of it in terms of that little sliver of her life. Mm hmm. But when she opened the doors to like, this long background in teaching and all of her the experience that she gained as a photographer, she ran a really successful photography business, you know, for herself for years, and what she learned in sales there and branding and visual marketing. And like once she opened the doors to really embrace like all of her background and realize like, She’s so much more than just what she was doing in the context of that new business coaching, you know, adventure. Like the gates just open for her, you know, and this is it, I think when we are able to do what you just described and bring our whole selves to our work. We relate to our work and the people through our work that we get to serve in entirely new ways. So you I mean, first of all, I even forgot, like all of the variety of corporate work that you did like even pharmaceuticals for a time like you have had a really really interesting career. What do you see when you bring all of that knowledge forward and now you’re doing your and I love what you call them? Your jaywalking sessions, right? So your your current coaching, which is super fun, I think you should take a moment and describe what those are for people.

Jay Rooke 9:33
I appreciate that. I think this was an additional shedding of personas. That’s kind of in line with what we’re describing. So similar to I think what you were describing with Alina, I had this vision of myself and how I fit into the marketplace and you know what I am and I was sort of holding to those lines. And I bring somebody in under the auspices of business coaching and then it’d be like, you know, opening up the trench coat and be like, hey, check out What’s over here, and I’ve got the good stuff. And so we started to do to talk about law of attraction and mindset, and all of those, you know, types of things that historically have not been considered legitimate in the business realm. And clients, we get a lot of gain out of it. But what I was frustrated at was, hey, Why wasn’t I leading my marketing with this aspect of this overlap of these three areas versus kind of hiding it behind. And the other thing was, I realized that I was tired of sitting at a desk and doing coaching sessions, and that I really liked to go for hikes in nature, for a lot of my coaching sessions, and long standing clients. didn’t mind it. But I worried that it was to be perceived as unprofessional in some way. And then I was like, Well, that makes no sense. Because I’m doing better work in this and the clients enjoying it more. Oh, wait, what if I flip this and make this be the selling point. And so you know, it’s basically an experiential hike in nature. And one of the cool things is that it’s fairly timely, around COVID views, the way that I’ve been positioned in from the start is, I’m going in nature one way or the other, I encourage you to do the same if it’s virtual, and find a safe, sacred spot for yourself, in nature that you enjoy. But I find it really enhances the process. And especially when we’re talking about new ways of thinking and new mindsets, and how to look at things from different angles. If you’re stuck on those issues, sitting in the same spot where you’ve been in the stuckness all the time, doesn’t make a ton of sense to find the new stuff. So that kind of launch the jaywalking sessions, and then basically 90 minute experiences. To get some spot coaching and feedback and new perspectives on things you might be stuck.

Heather Pearce Campbell 11:35
I love that. There’s, I mean, I’ve got a couple points. And I want to come back to your jaywalking. First. I was having this conversation just the other day with somebody about actually what happens in our brains when we are walking and talking. Yeah, you actually activate certain areas of your brain at like higher capacity than if you’re just sitting still. Right. So it I mean, I love the combination of that, like we should all probably on all of our phone calls be walking. And I’ve actually tried to do more of this during COVID. Myself, not always successfully because I have to keep eyeballs on two little people at a time. But I’m, I want to backtrack, because you’ve made some big jumps that take a lot of courage, right. And so much of what I love doing even through this podcast is supporting people with stories about, about courage, about guts, about grit, like what it takes to really have the mindset of not only enduring and getting through, including tough times, like a lot of people are experiencing now but also creating shifts, creating change in their life. And that can be a hard thing to do. And especially when we’re under pressure. And we’re kind of hanging on to things that normally help us to feel safe, like, talk to us a little bit about what it was like to walk away from law, right? Jump into a totally new world. Because I can imagine that that took no shortage of guts to do that.

Jay Rooke 13:06
You know, I appreciate that. And I wish I could say and thank you for the compliment. I wish I could say it was courageously driven, it was more pain driven. And it came to this sort of crucifix around. I can’t endure the way this feels anymore. to then be like this, I got to get out of this and go in a new direction. And so the pain became so intense that it forced the decision. But yeah, I’ll grant that there was some courage involved. And then some of the later decisions that I would make along the way as well. And I think for me, it was looking at what’s the way to do this and to go forward and grow and and make the journey be fun like these, they typically seemed exciting to me. And for better or worse, I’m more of a leap and figure things out afterwards person. And so the picture in my mind’s eye when I was making a lot of these jumps, was like rags to riches guaranteed. And so I was like, of course the restaurants gonna be awesome. And then it’s like, Ah, shit. So it was curry. I’m gonna call it creatively courageous. Because in my mind’s eye, like, I had a really cool picture of what was going to be happening. And it was exciting. And I guess maybe another thing that was out plays, I really liked the version of me that I saw in my mind’s eye when I was pursuing those things. And so there was like that magnetic attraction to Okay, this is at the very least the next step, even if it’s not the final destination.

Heather Pearce Campbell 14:37
Hmm, I love that “I like the version of myself that showed up in my mind’s eye,” you know, and taking those leaps. That’s awesome. Well, and I mean, when I think of most people in your shoes, who are in a position like that – leaving something like a law degree that they’d worked so hard for so long for and – What I want to talk about for a minute is the outward pressure that we face in our lives, right? from people in our family, people that are in our circles that perceive us and give us feedback about who we are and what we’re doing. That’s some extraordinary pressure.

Jay Rooke 15:17
Definitely, I think that was the hardest part for me. Yes, by far, especially parents, spouse in laws, all you know, those expectations, whether expressed or just implicit, and in my own mind, and self created. And I think, you know, there was these painful moments where I tell people what I did, and they said, You got a license to print money as an attorney, and you walked away from that, like, What a fool and on and on, I’m just like, Ah, man, and then, you know, somebody would say something like, Oh, you went to culinary school, but you’re not doing it. Now. That was a big waste of time. And I know I often response to myself is, well, I plan on eating three meals a day for the rest of my life. So I’m pretty sure it’s gonna come in valuable in some level. And so what’s the line from Othello? It’s something to the effect of like a bass Indian who threw away a pearl worth more than his entire tribe. And not, you know, the the emphasis that some people have on things as being of value didn’t match the same way that I was valuing those things at times. Yeah. And I think what happened for me, largely speaking, is I accepted and adopted and integrated a whole bunch of meta views that weren’t my own. So a lot of those kind of like baby boomer constructs, you know, we’re similar age range, and I assume you’re raised by baby boomers, where it was this whole Put your head down, work hard, you know,

Heather Pearce Campbell 16:41
We’re a car I’d work harder. Yes.

Jay Rooke 16:44
Yes, two or three jobs, don’t do anything that’s unsafe. And I just realized, wow, this like, it’s so didn’t work for me. And I think what I’m, what you might be publicly witnessing in my own unfolding here, is how do I create a similar structure for creative endeavors and pursuits that doesn’t look like that linear model? And I feel like that’s one that I consistently come banging back up against. Because my mind still, that’s the natural reach to is, hey, how does convention work in this? And how do I do it. And invariably, when I follow that path, there’s some resistance and things get jammed up, when I just do things out of juice and inspiration and whatnot, they pop and go well, more often than not, so learning how to start to trust that process, and a lot of the self forgiving and permission to make errors along the way and not get it right the first time. And it’s such a radically different approach to the way that we’re raised in the corporate world around, you know, historically is the I’m not saying all corporations, but the whole, you know, make sure the PowerPoint looks perfect and don’t have any mistakes and blah, blah, blah, and starting to shift my focus off of that and more towards the impact.

Heather Pearce Campbell 17:57
Well, and, you know, to the comment about like, What a waste of time, my, like the statistics, even on like most people’s schooling, it’s something like 60% of people never work in the area that they studied for their schooling, right. It’s a massive, like, it’s by far the majority. And my I don’t know, I just come from a belief that like an education, however we get it, like is not something to be regretted. Right? Even if we don’t end up directly using it. I mean, it’s the whole concept that when we look backwards, our path makes sense. Because each of those things is here to serve us in a, you know, in its own way, and sometimes really interesting ways, right, and you get to take, I mean, I just think of like the wealth of experience you have now across multiple industries, multiple frameworks, as far as like the way that you build a business, you know, the way that you operate inside of the business, to the people that you serve. Right, you have a much broader perspective than if you had only ever done law or only ever done. Sure. Right, one of those things. And so, no, I think it puts you at a huge advantage.

Jay Rooke 19:07
I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, and I think we’ll see more and more of this as COVID plays out more, as far as, you know, when you were referencing grit earlier, it’s this element of, of not quitting on yourself until you get there. And so I think if I’ll own the courage moniker on any level, it’d be something around that around, hey, I’m just gonna, I’m gonna ride this out. You can hit me a bunch, you know, you’re not gonna completely drop me. And I’m just gonna endure this until I get to wherever I’m going. And I think it’s particularly uncomfortable when the external validators are not showing up. You know, that, whether it be business success, or fulfillment, or whatever it might be, to keep walking forward in this unknown snowstorm of saying, Wait, why in the hell am I doing this? Why don’t I just plug back in and play safe and keep it simple and and that whole everything and so to Continue to move in that direction that you know, resonant wise or soul wise, you’re being moved towards, and starting to pay more attention to the things that we’ve settled for that didn’t perhaps serve us the way we thought they did.

Heather Pearce Campbell 20:12
Mm hmm. Yeah. Now that that tuning in, I love that concept of not quitting on yourself. And whether it truthfully, whether it’s in business, whether it’s in life, whether it’s in parenting, right, like you never get there, there’s no there there. Right. And I

Jay Rooke 20:28
Wish we did a better job teaching that, you know, I was completely taught the opposite, you know, what, and whatever absorbed that from whether it’s its parents are schooling or culture, but that I think it’s that perfectionist elements that we all think, you know, is Oh, yeah, that’s really you get there. And then coming back to parenting, I think about now how my children utterly idolize me, and think that I’ve got it all together, whatever that might be. And I think about the same thing that we all do with our parents, and we realize everyone’s hot mess in one version or another. And I wish we had the vulnerability and courage to project and share and teach people how to navigate life through that seed versus the other one, because it’s much softer.

Heather Pearce Campbell 21:10
Yes, no, this whole idea of evolving into deeper compassion for ourselves, which then means more compassion for other people. But the you know, I think that staying with ourselves takes grit, like staying present to ourselves. Like that process takes grit, right. But I think I think grit and truthfully compassion, especially on the, you know, the dedication to one’s personal journey, I just really deeply believe those things are intertwined. Mm hmm. Because if you’re too hard on yourself, you quit. Yeah, give up. Right?

Jay Rooke 21:48
Yeah. Or it causes the failure, I’m starting to notice more and more as well, as far as when it is that hard, and you’re pushing so hard in every direction and being super hard on yourself. We Rob ourselves of that energy and brainpower to make the good decisions and keep doing one foot in front of the other. And it just sours the whole journey, and I’m as guilty of it as anyone I think for me that that’s one of my constant. Go back twos that I just always need to have my on the dashboard for me. Mm hmm.

Heather Pearce Campbell 22:17
Well, yeah, it’s human nature. And for any of us that have any little blend of type A’s involved.

Jay Rooke 22:26
Pharmaceutical cure all pill that I want, it’s not the anti anxiety or anti depressant. It’s like, what’s the what’s the Type B pill that I can take?

Heather Pearce Campbell 22:35
How do I adjust the balance of Type A and type B involved in my personality? Totally. Well, it is funny because as a kid, I was much more type A like than I am now. I still I still have some of that in me like the achiever part of me that just is a striver. Like, there’s no, you know, it feels like I’ve got a little Energizer Bunny somewhere that I can’t turn off, right. And I don’t totally detest it. Some days, I do. Like, I’m the person that can’t really sit still and watch a movie, I have to be folding laundry, or you know what I mean? So I’ve got lessons to learn about, like how to be Hmm. But but there are ways like it’s the flip side of the coin, there are ways that were served by certain of those traits, right? There are ways that they help us get through really tough times. And so it’s, I just think, like, to the extent we can flip the coin over or look at the other side of the apple or whatever it is that we’re looking at, right and see both sides, just so that we can be more intentional in our choosing, like, are we choosing this? Are we being driven by this? Right?

Jay Rooke 23:40
Yep. And I think that that flip around. They consider a view when it’s a servant to the larger vision, but it doesn’t want to becomes the taskmaster and leading the charge. And I think, you know, that part of why we get stuck in some of those type A circles is that the vision that we’re moving towards is big and cool and exciting to us. And so that, that’s one of things that we reach for in order to try to get there. And it might not always be the most effective. leverageable

Heather Pearce Campbell 24:10
Yeah, so true. So let’s talk for a minute cuz you’re a dad, let’s talk for a minute about this balancing act that parents are in, right, the whole, you know, whether it’s working a job or being an entrepreneur, like having to still be engaged in work in some fashion and then show up, you know, more than full time and most weeks as a parent.

Jay Rooke 24:33
And boy, can that perfectionist, you know, type a one wreak havoc on our self esteem or self perception when that’s going on. Yeah, and so that’s when I’ve consistently struggled with since our twins have been born, and I’ve been running my own business. And so I was chatting with a client of mine the other day, and she was commenting on how her daughter was frustrated. At her, you know, around not being able to like fix everything financially and she had to take a loan out. And you know, this woman and her daughter have been awesome and provided for and quality, everything across the board. And the conversation went towards how oftentimes in our 20s, we’ll kind of lean in on our parents around whatever we perceive they did or didn’t do, that didn’t make us perfect. And this concept around all of our parents handed down some level of baggage or non perfect down to us. And that’s going to happen until you know, the history of reproduction stops. And if we can sit in that and realize, like you said, From the start, I’m not going to get this, right, there’s no way any parent has ever gotten this, right. And when I get caught in those loops of not enoughness, or whatever it might be around parenting, I realized that what I’m doing is I’m comparing, however, I’m functioning at that point in time, to the ideal functioning version of myself as a father, entrepreneur, provider, etc, that I’ve got in my head. And I realized that that’s the most worthless way to evaluate that because the kid doesn’t care at that point in time, you know, whether you showed how to kick a soccer ball correctly, or build the paper airplane perfectly on and on and on, what’s really getting passed down is, how was I feeling and relating to my children at that moment? And those are the things that are the bigger components that I’m starting to notice way more in parenting than the technical mom tasked to do stuff. And so I think that’s another consistent thing that that I’m currently working on is, how do I focus on the energy and frequency that I’m bringing when I’m around my children or thinking about myself and dad role? versus Hey, am I checking all the boxes for perfect pair?

Heather Pearce Campbell 26:52
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there’s there is like, an I was saying this the other day, I think, and I was talking with a group of women, but I was saying, as women, you know, it’s all about, like, showing up like whether it’s at your job, you have to perform harder as a women in most jobs. If you’re not self employed, then you do as a man, like, you just you have to, because it’s just the way that it works in most instances. And I may, you know, truthfully, be speaking from a little personal experience in the legal field where, you know, it was super easy for women to get passed over for, you know, anything, any kind of a promotion, or acknowledgement or anything else. But this, we put, we take that pressure, and we carry that pressure over into our personal lives as moms like, Oh, we have to show up, we have to be 100%, or we have failed, right kind of this either, or, like I either failed today. And it’s, you know, I love this idea of, you know, changing the perspective of how did I relate to my child versus like, whether I did all the things? Did I clean the house? Did I make a fully balanced meal? Did I eat it? I mean, did I teach them their ABCs for the right amount of time and do the reading and do all this stuff? Right? It’s, it’s, I think we have to soften the edges of it, especially now, especially during COVID, when we’re expected to do all the things at all the same time.

Jay Rooke 28:23
And I want to add, one thing that you just made me realize is that there’s this I think, intense driver for most parents to try to do their absolute best views of either children and get it right, quote, unquote, right, whatever that looks like. And so when we’re when we’re holding on to that model, and I do this way too much, we get ourselves in a lot of trouble, when we can flip over to what we were saying earlier about kind of education in my own path and experience, if we realize, hey, we’re screwing this up one way or the other, and we’re gonna do things really well one way or the other. And it’s sort of like you can’t you can’t get it wrong type of elements along as you’re operating from love than you realize whatever you perceive in that moment, you know, there’s this judging of, Oh, this is good or bad, right or wrong, this is helpful or hurtful to my child. And that that whole thing is total BS, because we’re caught in the moment of perfection. And if we look at COVID right now, yes, there’s all these negatives around, hey, I don’t feel I’m as present as I’d like to be with my kids. I’m not doing as much time with them. What are some of the upsides you know? Oh, hey, they’re getting to know me way better. They are learning how to self direct better than if I were there, doting on them every minute of the day, and all those types of things. And so just in the same way that I could brush the restaurant or the legal thing as a failure, it leaves on the table then all of those things where it was a positive and so trying to understand that thing and realize that they need to find their own path. Anyways.

Heather Pearce Campbell 29:51
That’s right now that’s a really powerful reframe. So by way of example, the other morning and I’ve had a couple of weeks of leading this group of women every morning at six Am for an hour. For most of it. My kids have stayed asleep but the last couple days, and Lee has been waking up before I’m done leading that group, right and so and when she wakes up and mommy’s not there, like, the world is ending, basically, right? It’s terrible like she’s screaming bloody murder will the other day. And I just couldn’t do anything about it because I was like virtually at the end of that call, and I just needed to do wrap up and then I could go attend to her and it took a little longer than she wanted and, but my son comes in like a minute later, Mom, Henley was so upset crying, and he’d actually gotten around a bed took her upstairs, made her a bottle. But she I don’t think he’d ever done before washed it himself. But you know, like all the things and he’s like, she’s happy. Now. She’s watching the Henley show on the TV. And I got her a bottle. And I was just like, congrats, Mom, I get this. I know, look at my little buddy stepping up, right. And so I think it’s really, really important to be present to what you just said, like there are opportunities to reframe the constraints that we’re feeling from all negative, and like, I’m not showing up enough, I’m not present enough to like, what are we collectively learning during this time, that will actually serve us right and serve our children, because there are things there. So coming back, full circle back to the folks that you are working with. Now, talk to me about the part of your work as you’re evolving, right and to more of like bringing your full self and your spirituality to your business coaching. What is it that you love most about the work that you’re doing?

Jay Rooke 31:41
Watching people start to love themselves again, and learning how to drop a lot of that negative, hey, I’m on the wrong path, or I’m not fully realized levels of thinking. So that they can see themselves for their own brilliance, and start to forgive themselves for beating up on not being able to see that at that point in time. And, you know, basically, helping them drop these thoughts, structures and ways of viewing and processing things so that their, their world becomes much softer, and inside their heads, much more creative. And they’re able to manifest and just make things happen in ways that they historically weren’t able to with a lot less effort. And so it’s kind of like life starts to be a lot more fun and full color for this.

Heather Pearce Campbell 32:30
Oh, I love that. Yeah, who doesn’t want more fun? Well, and I think it’s so true when we’re when we’re pushing, right pushing, pushing, pushing, and we’re not. Gosh, I don’t know how to describe it. But we’re not really for me, like, I know that the business and the personal journey, for me are like one in the same. They’re very intertwined, right? The extent of what I can do in my business and with my clients is, you know, the lid on that it’s it’s, you know, I’m maxed out by by who I am as a person and how fully I can develop myself. Right. Oh, Louis.

Jay Rooke 33:06
Yeah. And I think the the most recent tweak to what I’ve been trying to attract in my own work is let’s pretend you’ve got your traditional, you know, e commerce whiz bang entrepreneur that just has figured out funnels and ads, and you know, it’s just rocking it. I could work that person. Yeah, sure, probably, it’d be all fine. But the folks that I most love to work with are those that are pursuing the entrepreneurial path as part of their personal fulfillment. Like for them, it’s not just a gig or an entrepreneurial thing. Like they need to go through this in order to fully realize themselves. And so there’s just a different quality to the work and a lot more that we can bring into it versus just traditional transactional business coaching.

Heather Pearce Campbell 33:48
And you find that you are attracting more and more of those folks.

Jay Rooke 33:51
Yes, yep. Yeah. Which is fun. You have us everyone, it just starts happening naturally versus having to, you know, throw the fishing line out and go through all the traditional bs of our marketing avenues. It’s, it’s much more gratifying.

Heather Pearce Campbell 34:04
Yeah, no, I love that. What What do you find most challenging about this type of work?

Jay Rooke 34:12
So you were mentioning earlier about bringing your full you to the table and just showing all of that. And I think what collides for me is there’s a traditional marketing speak around funnels and scalability and whatnot, that you have to have your niche customer and situation perfectly dialed in, and it needs to be super strict and you can’t fade outside of that. And I’ve operated under that premise for a while. And what I’m starting to realize is, for me, sort of bucking that traditional wisdom and just throwing out what I’m doing and talking about it is catching enough like people get it without having to turn it into a three word soundbite earn a tagline and things like that. But historically, I was stuck there. And so I wouldn’t market this aspect of myself because I couldn’t figure out how to do that marketing, speak a niche, speak around So yeah, I’ll leave it at that.

Heather Pearce Campbell 35:01
No, I love that. And you know, even in our we were in that little Facebook group together even this concept of, you know, and you hear a lot of the same themes, right? In the entrepreneurial space, you hear a lot of the same things, including like this idea about figuring out your niche, right, doing the things in the right order, getting your marketing language down, all of that, right. And the end of the day, that all that stuff doesn’t so much matter if you’re not doing the work. Yeah. Right. And so the spin that my friend when I had posted that comment about my friend saying, you know, care less about that less about determining your niche and more about just doing the work because it will essentially create itself. Yes. Right. And so that’s a little bit what I’m hearing you say is like doing the work and just putting it out there and the right people will show up, if you are doing the work from the place that you should be doing it, which is, you know, really your individual power, your individual brilliance, like bringing yourself to the work versus trying to make you know, your business look like somebody else’s business or fit the mold or do all the things

Jay Rooke 36:10
1,000,000% Yes. And I think what it comes down to as well is how do you say goodbye to lost train of thought was that last thing you just said?

Heather Pearce Campbell 36:20
No, that’s right, just the power of bringing our individual selves and doing the work versus being more concerned about all the steps and following the template and figuring out your niche. Right, right.

Jay Rooke 36:32
Right. I know what I wanted to go, how they say, you know, that that something to the effect of tone counts for like, you know, 60% of communication, or whatever that is. And so, realizing that when we’re doing the word smithing, but the authenticity isn’t there, our tone is coming across wrong. And like you said, picking up other people’s marketing practices, other people’s business models, and I realized I’ve been doing that all along. And that’s why they weren’t working for me when I imploded that and just started, you know, leading from heartspace, Allah carebears. And just sort of shoot that beam out there.

Heather Pearce Campbell 37:06
It works. Yeah, yay. Shout out to the 70s and 80s.

Jay Rooke 37:10
Yes, do I get points for being the first person to mention CareBears on the podcast?

Heather Pearce Campbell 37:14
You do and you get major points. I had my own Carebear and I am such a CareBear fan. So awesome.

Jay Rooke 37:21
Yeah. That’s hilarious. Yeah. And, and so I think we’re at a spot of, I’m going to call it like modern method and all this stuff of the old, you know, it’s been fine. It served, but it’s just breaking down. And it’s not working for people. And I think the more we continue to reach for it, the more we lead ourselves down the wrong path. And so for me, you know, big focus point right now, both with myself and my client work is how do we create from this space of total newness and blankness and darkness and infiniteness, which is actually very empowering in some ways. If you look at it, right? Or it’s can be seen, you know, terrifying. We’re in that dance right now. I think,

Heather Pearce Campbell 37:58
Yeah, no, I love that I love that reframe to even, you know, the times that we’re in, and actually the need for doing it differently. It’s one thing to do it differently to also, you know, reconnect to our personal purpose and all of that, but I think there is a bigger thing that’s happening. And it is that old tools are not working in the same old ways, right? You’re just not. Right, right. Yeah, I love that. Well, Jay, where do you like to connect with people I’m going to I’m going to direct you know, give a link to the show notes. I’m going to direct people to the show notes, we’ll add anything that you want to share. For folks listening, you can find those at legal website, warrior.com, forward slash podcast. But Jay, talk to us a little bit about where you show up where you like to connect. And for people that are interested in either learning more about your work or scheduling a j walk session? Where do you love to connect with people? Awesome.

Jay Rooke 38:51
Yeah, so I would say Facebook and LinkedIn are probably my two primary social media on Facebook, it’s at tribe creator. And then for LinkedIn, it’s at Jay rook. And for the jaywalking sessions, that’s j, rook Comm. jyroke.com. And I’m super excited about that web page that I put together in the experience. And so if folks are inspired by that, and feel called to reach out all the contact form is right there on the page.

Heather Pearce Campbell 39:18
I love it. And will you also take a minute and share with folks listening about your podcast?

Jay Rooke 39:24
That please Thank you, I appreciate the opportunity. So the podcast is Know Pain, Know Gain, but it’s k-n-o-w for both. And the inspiration behind it for me was that most of the marketing, business speak gurus out there supposedly are just completely full of it as far as what it actually looks like once you get behind the tank, and start, you know, running your own business or whatever that looks like. And so my inspiration was to start to have more real and relevant and raw conversations around what it’s actually like, and bringing on later stage entrepreneurs that have hit some speed bumps along the way. And then talk talking through what they would tell their former self, what they learned and those types of things to sort of accelerate the entrepreneurial journey. So number one, you don’t have to make the same mistakes that along the way that others have. But also so that you can see and hear yourself and others that are more successful than you and realize that’s also you right now, and that you’re not failing and that you’re not isolated and alone. You’re learning and moving forward. Hmm.

Heather Pearce Campbell 40:23
So I love that. And I love the really the dedication to having real conversations as a podcast, as a podcast host, you’re gonna know the difference between a guest that shows up with a canned message,

Jay Rooke 40:35
Ahh it’s the worst, –

Heather Pearce Campbell 40:36
The worst! versus one that shows up to have a real conversation. As a new podcast person, I’m you know, I mean, I’m learning the ropes, and I’m really enjoying the process. But I’ve had a couple of those interviews where you just can’t get the person to, like, slow down and break down and have like a real life person that it’s like, to all the speak and the canned little messages, and you know, and then you’re like, Okay, I’m wrapping this up, and we’re 30 minutes in, but I’ve had enough.

Jay Rooke 41:03
Yeah. And I’ve had to, like pause the convos at times and be like, “Listen, you’re not going to get any traction out of this. Because it sounds like an infomercial. If you show up real you know, you got a chance.” And I find like the worst or those that have like proprietary systems or methods or stuff like that. So you’ll ask an interesting question, and then we’ll keep redirecting it to well, if you go back to step three of my five step method, it has the answer, and that’s it.

Heather Pearce Campbell 41:27
No, I love that. I’m gonna take a note out of your book and be like, pause. We’re doing a redirect. I know. But it’s so true. And so I really I you know, for anybody listening, go check it out. Know Pain, Know Gain podcast, you’re gonna get real conversations. Jay is a tremendous host. Jay, thank you so much for joining me today. So great to have you here.

Jay Rooke 41:47
Heather, thank you so much. And thank you to all your listeners. It’s been a real honor to be here and I hope some good things come of this. I really appreciate the conversation.

Heather Pearce Campbell 41:54
Awesome. Great to have you. We’ll talk again soon.

GGGB Outro 42:00
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more. See the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us, too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.