Evolving from Founder to CEO

With Jill James, who helps self-funded business owners go from being the founder to CEO. This is the cure for entrepreneurs who work 80+ hours a week, which can be fixed in a matter of a couple of weeks, without losing any profits. She helps self-funded business owners put a strategic operational strategy in place, to make sure their financial decisions set them up to thrive, without having to sell, take on partners, or spend years figuring out everything by themselves.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • “It’s really important that the person who starts the company, the person who’s the CEO, understands that the choices that they make in their business, whether you have five people, or 100, people, the things that you do are now going to radiate out to those other people for a really long time.”
  • “You don’t need to solve every problem at once.”
  • “Part of our entrepreneurial journey is you have to get a little bit beyond your comfort zone, but not so far beyond your comfort zone that it’s paralyzing.”
  • “There’s no one way to be a CEO.”

Check out these highlights:

  • 3:32 How Jill ended up in finance by accident
  • 21:05 The transition to CEO thinking
  • 38:22 Bottlenecks and small businesses
  • 57:02 Different ways of being a CEO

How to get in touch with Jill:

On social media:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thejilljames/?hl=en

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jilldjames

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8Hx2ojDHha71dNG0m5p65g

Learn more about Jill here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Coming up today on Guts, Grit & Great Business™

Jill James  00:04

You’re the person making the decisions. And you know, even I talked to somebody today, and a lot of us come from the background and being really good problem solvers. I could do this, or I could do this, or I could do this. This is framing it in a way to say, what do you want to happen? What’s your ideal outcome here? Because we shouldn’t work like what we could make happen. Like, tell me what you want to happen. And sometimes that’s a big shift. If we’ve, you know, been in a job where we have to compromise a lot or make it work with other people to be able to say, like, this is exactly what I want. I would be able, I’d be willing to accept this as Plan B, not I’ll make it work. I’ll make anything work, right because making anything work will take you down a lot of different rabbit holes that don’t align and definitely are driven by purpose.

GGGB Intro  00:50

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of Guts, Grit & Great Business™ stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:22

All righty, welcome. Hello, I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™. Today we are talking to Jill James. Welcome, Jill. 

Jill James  01:38

Thanks, Heather. It’s great to be here.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:40

It’s so great to have you. I’m super excited about this conversation. The topics that we will be chatting about today are super relevant now more than ever, and especially for the groups of folks that we’ll be talking to. For those of you that don’t know, Jill, Jill, James helps self funded business owners go from being the founder to CEO. Sometimes we start businesses to birth ideas, and sometimes it’s because it’s the best option available. Jill started her company out of necessity. She was seven months pregnant and realized being CEO of a VC backed tech startup was not going to work for her. When Jill started working with self funded founders, she realized they often started off the same way she did, and wanted to build on their mission to change how we work, offer good jobs and build a financially healthy company that rewards their full value. From her roles as a banker, financial planner, and executive at VC backed startups. Jill knew there were lots of ways for these founders to be successful CEOs on their own terms. I love it. And Jill, where are you at today? Tell me where you’re where you’re based.

Jill James  02:50

Sure. I’m based in Los Angeles. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:52

Excellent. So we’re the same timezone. You’re just down the coast. Jill’s also a mom, we were just swapping stories about school during COVID. And the craziness of juggling all of that and our very limited school years. But we’ll have lots of lots of fun talking today about, you know, all of the above motherhood, the business building journey, I want to hear more about your story. It sounds like you were in corporate, you’ve got plenty of what I call big business experience. Right. And now, you’ve translated that into pursuing your own mission on your own terms.

Jill James  03:32

Yeah, I think that’s a good way to sum it up. You know, I was just, you know, reflecting on something I just did an off site of around personal development for women executives, and I was really reflecting back on I totally came into the workforce, you know, by accident. I’m from a small town in Wisconsin, I worked at a cheese factory, you know, and then, you know, the world of work to me that was available out of going to like a top university was completely different than anything I ever understood. You know, I went home the first year from being in investment banking, my family was like, Can you give me a loan on a house and I was like, we don’t do that. Never really had a job. This is probably the job that the people in my family can most understand what I do, but like people like you, my family, for the most part has been like somebody pays you for that. So I think, you know, I kind of just followed the work that I enjoyed and the ideas that were interesting to me. I was thinking back on it. I actually ended up in finance by accident, the road consulting was in the title. So I applied for the job, and then they’re like, this is a bank. And I was like, Okay, that sounds fun. Let’s do that. You know, so I know there are people out there who are cringing because like people work so hard to get jobs at investment banks, and I was like, Okay.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:49

You accidented yourself into it.

Jill James  04:51

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it’s, you know, it wasn’t something I set out to do, but it was a great learning process. And I think being you know, A personal financial planner to individuals and small businesses, in particular, combined with seeing the difference of when people have jobs versus when they make their own jobs, the financial system is completely different for you. So understanding kind of how to do that code switch of what we hear about in terms of how to run things for ourselves, when we are W two employees, which is where most people who start businesses have lived their whole lives, and then they switch over into running a company. And it’s a completely different ballgame. And, you know, being able to understand how, especially a self funded business, which is 98% of all businesses, that story just really isn’t out there. So, you know, a lot of what we get is around high growth, VC backed businesses, and those are sexy stories, but it’s not most of us. And that’s not like gurus, Business Press, you know, they’re really tell the story of like a handful of companies that are, you know, on their way to the public market, or they’re going to burn, crash and burn spectacularly. And for most of us, those are smart tactics that are relevant for us. So you know, in thinking about, like, what are the foundational things that really get people to their goals, and like, give them fulfilling business ownership, right, is that it’s not a rise and grind type of attitude. It’s like, what can this business do for me, and I think that’s really where you know, business starts to work for people and jobs start to work for people,

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:23

You raise such an important point. And it’s worth repeating here, because the the group of clients that I serve are the people that you’re talking to, right, the ones that are building a business for themselves, they’re, they’re not trying to create a, you know, 80 or 100 Million Dollar Startup and spin it off in five years and make a bazillion bucks. It’s, they want to create a business that allows them to have impact in the world, that sustainable, helps them thrive, maybe build a small team, you know, bring on employees, but they’re not looking to you know, they’re not looking for that really rapid, Fast Track growth that you’re talking about, which are the stories that are sexy and make the news headlines and, and the reality and I remind my clients of this all the time, collectively, small businesses in the United States are 99.9% of all businesses, yes. Like we are the marketplace. From a numbers perspective, we are the marketplace, from a GDP perspective, we make up 42 to 43% of annual GDP is not inconsequential. It’s a huge percentage of the marketplace, even though, like you say there are a handful of big players that really, you know, our primary drivers and get a lot of the news attention.

Jill James  07:39

Yeah, yeah. And I think of this all the time, you know, we’re working, you know, being in California, they’re all of these rules made really specifically around high growth startups that all of us running businesses under 50 people, you know, we all have to deal with that. And it’s like, radically changed the nature of how we have to run our businesses. And all those rules were made for five to 10 companies. Yeah, right. And it’s like, if you’re not a union, or a venture backed company, and you’re the other 47%, you have 47% of employees and your 98% of the businesses in California, like the rules are made for someone else. And so to figure out like, that is not, those are the rules of the game that you have to follow. But the other opportunities that are there for you, for some reason, systems don’t speak to that, right. We don’t have a collective body that speaks for us, other than the Chamber of Commerce. And we’re not necessarily all aligned. So what the Chamber of Commerce does, although I will say I just joined my local Chamber of Commerce, which is great. It never occurred to me to do that before. Now, I have clients all over the country, I don’t usually just work with people in my neighborhood. But it’s actually been really fun to be in that group of people that are kind of local to my area.

Heather Pearce Campbell  08:51

It’s such a great point. Well, and you know, it really is true that whether you’re talking about systems rules, from my perspective, even support available in the marketplace are really targeted to the handful and not the majority. And it’s actually partly what motivated me to create a whole second business designed to provide very specific legal supports, to a very specific kind of client that is normally excluded from the marketplace when it comes to getting their legal needs met. Right. And I feel like across the board, small businesses suffer from a lack of access to the core supports, they need a lot of the same supports that big businesses do just on a different scale, delivered, delivered in a totally different way. Right. So I hold strong to the vision that that small business is that we’re creating a new model where small businesses get their needs met, and that people who are in this space of what I call building a lifestyle business, which is not meant to be derogatory meant that it’s a business that allows them a certain lifestyle. but also creates an avenue for them to do the work that they’re so passionate about. Right?

Jill James  10:06

Yeah. And you’re you’re absolutely right. I mean, in the way that I work with founders, too, like, I’m more on the operations finance strategy piece. But, you know, I start off by giving people the freedom to say like, what, what do you want from this business? What do you want your job to be? What do you want it to do for you financially? And I’ve had, you know, people say, well, in a perfect world, like, I would work two days a week, and I’d want to make like, a million dollars a year, but that’s not possible. And I’m like, well, let’s figure out if it is like, that’s a puzzle to be solved. Right? Like, what would it take, if that is the challenge you’re putting on the table, and that’s truly what you want, once look for a business that would do that for you. And then we’ll decide if it’s the business you really want. But I think, you know, there are leverage points in small businesses. You know, not every small business is going to work that way. But all business all small businesses can be more, I think, financially streamlined, right? You know, just by understanding your unit costs and understanding, like, how much are you going to make per transaction, and what that sets you up for, in terms of taking yourself out of your business, or hiring people or changing what your job is, right there isn’t looking at other people’s models of this is how it’s done and then trying to replicate it is, it’s gonna set you back, right, unless it’s a really progressive business. So I think there are a lot of things that we look at in small business, and we just assume this is the way it is, these are the margins we can have, this is the challenge. I don’t believe any of that, like I have really looked at small businesses where if we choose the right sweet spot, it’s still a really unattractive market to a large company, but you can occupy that space for a long time at a high margin. And those are great spots for small businesses. And those are positions that we can find in emerging markets that, you know, people don’t don’t know yet, or things that are, you know, never going to be worth $100 billion, because we’re not going to put money in there to invest. So there are spaces like this, it’s just about finding them and then setting up your company to do this for you. And, you know, I don’t think that’s a story that we tell small business owners of, yeah, if you if you want the world to work this way for you. Let’s do that. Like, that’s fine. That’s a good answer. You don’t have to live at your business for 80 hours a week and you know, make $30,000 a year, right, there’s another there is another path to do this, if it’s a path you want. But I also find that sometimes people are stuck in that mindset of like, No, this grind is what it like, this is what it is.

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:39

This is real. That was gonna be my question. Is it that people are not creative enough? And thinking kind of, like outside of outside of the box outside of kind of the the standard what they know? Or is it that they just don’t have the support to ask the right questions, right? Because I think some people can be plenty creative, but they still need help with strategy. Right? They still need help understanding, is it a plan? That’s doable? Is it something they can execute? What what do you think is missing for most, most entrepreneurs, most small businesses that are that are feeling stuck or not having the growth that they want?

Jill James  13:20

That’s a good question. I think what’s missing for a lot of people is, you know, I have a lot of people that are like, oh, I need an MBA, and I’m like, I have an MBA, I use some really specific things for my MBA, and I could teach them to you in a couple of weeks. And once you know them, these are the only things you need to know from your MBA, because you are trying to network into being a fortune 500 CEO. Yeah, you don’t care about accelerated depreciation, it doesn’t matter to you. Alright, so you know, all that stuff we spent all that time doing is meant to get you into a bigger company. But there are some foundational financial concepts, I think, and some rules, just rules of the game. And things that you learn faster when you have access to great lawyers, great strategist, you know, the kinds of things that you have when you’re in a high growth company, that you know, maybe your investor or someone else will will kind of let you borrow or they’ll cut you a deal. When you have that kind of elite support. You get this information a lot faster, when you can act on it. And then you can you you really use that to accelerate your growth. So I think oftentimes, people will look at those people and say, That’s not for me, or Oh, my God, it’s $500 an hour, I would never pay that, right. And so some of these limiting beliefs about like, I’m a small business, therefore, I should not invest in these things. That’s definitely one of the things that holds people back and I think the other one is math. A lot of people think like, I’m a visionary. I shouldn’t I don’t want to know this kind of stuff.

Heather Pearce Campbell  14:51

To deal with math. I don’t like math.

Jill James  14:54

I’ve got to say like, I’m in accounting all day every day. I don’t I don’t enjoy it. You No, but it is the language that we speak in business, it tells us the answers. So you know, as much as you know, I have an accountant and I work with accountants and I know a lot about accounting. It’s because I have to be fluent to be in this world, like, it’s the language we speak. And so, you know, it’s, I think it’s a little, again, people thinking of like, wow, well, I don’t, I don’t really like that, like, that’s not interesting to me, and it’s gonna crush my genius, or crush my creativity, by start to, you know, get into these other sides of the business that are kind of boring, and like, I don’t enjoy, but what I found is that, you know, just a little bit of the right knowledge of knowing the questions to ask, knowing the areas like where you get leverage in your business, and how the financials work, how the economics work. And then some, again, some of these rules right there, I’m sure there’s legal stuff that you look at, and you’re like, you know, there’s a whole credit program for this, or you can write, like, you can write your equity structure this way. And like, there are all kinds of things like that, that having, you know, somebody that can help you at these moments of, of thinking through things like maybe they’re not with you forever, but it is a higher investment, it is a higher dollar amount. But you know, working with someone like that for a shorter period of time, versus someone who’s always with you can really change the trajectory of your business.

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:19

Yeah, no, we’re definitely speaking the same language around getting the right support, especially at key periods. Right. And I do think a lot of small businesses end up with that, like, well, that’s a big business strategy that doesn’t really apply to what I’m doing here, you know, and it like across the board, like within the legal world, which is where I live, right. The some of the same issues that big businesses deal with right entity formation strategy, what’s going to be the best for, you know, are they optimizing for reselling the business? Are they optimizing for tax strategy, tax savings, right, different strategies? Are they you know, of course, they’re going to be dealing with intellectual property issues, they’re going to be having to get all kinds of business contracts behind the scenes, a well run small business deals with all the same things, they need that same support that there it’s not a big business versus small business strategy. It’s about how do I get the support that my business needs? At the right phase? Right?

Jill James  17:22

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that’s a really good way to think about it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  17:26

So when you’re working directly with write the self funded founders who are really wanting to transition to CEO, walk us through the early steps of what you do with those clients and some of the things that you have them thinking about?

Jill James  17:42

Sure. So the first part of any engagement with me is what I call the business design bootcamp where we ask those questions of first week, with all the CEOs I’ve worked with over the years, there, they imprint on their business. And it’s really important that the person who starts the company, the person who’s the CEO, understands that the choices that they make in their business, whether you have five people, or 100, people, the things that you do are now going to radiate out to those other people for a really long time. Right, they stay in the culture, they stay in the process, they stay in the function. So in the very early stages of setting a growth strategy, right in your foundation has to be what you want the business to be for you what your values and mission are like, what’s your purpose for the business? You know, how are you going to have employees? Are you not? Are we trying to, you know, help you with your personal wealth? Is that a purpose of the business? Or is this like read, reinvest, and grow as fast as possible? Like, what do you need it to do for you. And I also, I asked all the founders to do something called a love hate exercise, where, you know, we have a little grid, and it’s like, love, like, dislike hate. And that actually determines who we need to come into the business for help. Because if you love it, like I don’t believe that certain jobs or CEO jobs other than you always have to control the money, right, you never hand off control of the money. So that’s the only job that has to be a CEO job. Otherwise, you get to design the CEO job based on the things that you love to do. And so we design around, like, the more of your time should be spent in what you love to do. And if it’s not something that you love to do, in fact, we try to zero in on those things that you hate. That is where you get the first help, because that keeps you doing the things that you love. And that keeps you from really kind of being substandard and less things that you don’t enjoy or you avoid. And that’s the best place to invest in, in getting help. Sometimes that means hiring somebody sometimes it just means you know, a specialized type helps sometimes it means the system, but you know, we have to know that and some people are really reticent to be like, Well, I don’t really hate anything. Like I would rather you have super strong feelings. I have people who are just like, I hate this and I hate this and I hate this and I’m like great well, this Just how much money it’s going to take to undo the things like get those things completely off your plate, but well handled. So let’s build that into your financial plan. And then you’re done. Right, you know, the stuff you hate is handled. So, you know, just going through that exercise alone, I think really sets people up to not be like, Oh, I, I think the thinking is, I’m going to have to learn those things. And the thinking that you should have is, how am I going to manage the person? Like, what do I need to know to manage the person who’s going to do those things? Because if they’re on your hatless, like, why are we learning to do them? Right, then learn to manage them. But we don’t want to learn to do that. That’s not a good use of time.

Heather Pearce Campbell  20:39

It’s a great distinguishing point, because I do think, and there’s a, I think there’s a difference between just offloading a portion of your business, right, like, oh, technology, right, or whatever, I just want this handled, versus knowing how to manage it. Right? How does somebody make sure that they’re not doing the offloading, and that they know enough to be able to manage it?

Jill James  21:05

And I think that’s part of the transition to the CEO thinking, right? Like, I understand the basic economics of how this works, I understand my budget, I understand, like, what I want that portion of the business to do for me. So I feel like I can have accountability. And I think the other part is a mindset shift of, you know, no matter what you know, the most about your business. So if somebody comes in and says, like, just let me do it, or I’m the expert here, like, Don’t question what I’m doing. Like, that’s not somebody you want to work with. Or you want to find people who are like, hey, work me out of a job, overtime, that’s great. Like, I’m happy to teach you about this, like, I want you to understand it. So looking for people who are consultative who are advisory, right, who are there to say, I’m not going to be with you forever, you know, maybe I will, that’s your choice. But, you know, my idea here is, you know, I will do it for you, but I want you to understand how it works and what I’m doing. I think asking that of the the people that you bring in is a different way to think about it versus I just need to get this off my plate because I hate it, right of having someone who’s you know, a good partner to you, who will help you learn to manage them, or teach you the parts that maybe you’ll find interesting, as the person running the company, or guide you to, you know, I like to just cut down on decisions. Sometimes that’s the reason people hate things is they just like they see the universe of possibilities. And they’re like, I could never think through all those things. But if I know what your priorities are, I can say they’re really, you know, one, maybe three choices, there are two or three choices here that we’re gonna are going to be right for you. I think this is the right one because of this. But I also want to show you the other two because they have these slight differences that you also said were important. But you are the CEO, you have to make the decision I love so I don’t come over the top and run the company for people I’m like I will present you and you will make you will ultimately make the decision.

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:58

Yeah, I think that’s so important. And even that distinguishing point around working with somebody who’s consultative, willing to share all the information with you hugely valuable to somebody that wants to build their own leadership skills, their own understanding of what they’re doing.  Okay, let’s pause just for a moment to hear from today’s sponsor. Today’s sponsor is the company Money Grit. If you have ever chosen a tool to help support you with your money tracking your money habits and found that it actually adds stress does not provide clarity, or does not help you change behaviors related to money, then you need to check out Money Grit, you can go to moneygrit.com It is a tool that will help you both in your personal finances and personal budgeting and also has a business side as well. So as an entrepreneur, if you are wanting to find a tool that is able to support you in both worlds, where you can stop budgeting and start seeing the possibilities with a tool that will help you stay on track and will actually help you change your financial behaviors. This is the tool for you. Finally, a money management program that shows you the whole picture. Money Grit helps you gain control of your money with exclusive features designed to ensure you have a spending plan that works for you. You’ll never get caught off guard or go without. So you can stress less and live better. Check out moneygrit.com Okay, back to today’s amazing guest. Back to the first exercise that you walk people through in your boot camp. What percentage of people do you find have created or launched a business and really not thought through those things?

Jill James  24:58

Probably about 85

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:05


Jill James  25:06

Yeah, yeah. So I think it’s a good framing exercise to both put you in the mindset of, you know, you’re the, you’re the person making the decisions. And, you know, even I talked to somebody today, and a lot of us come from the background and being really good problem solvers, I could do this, or I could do this, or I could do this. This is framing it in a way to say, what do you want to happen? What’s your ideal outcome here? Because we shouldn’t work with like, what we could make happen, like, tell me what you want to happen. And sometimes that’s a big shift. If we’ve, you know, been in a job where we have to compromise a lot, or make it work with other people to be able to say, like, this is exactly what I want, I would be able, I’d be willing to accept this as Plan B, not make it work, I’ll make anything work, right? Because making anything work will take you down a lot of different rabbit holes that don’t align and definitely are driven by purpose. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:58

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and to your other point around, I’m just gonna label it decision fatigue, right, like all these decisions. Talk to me a little bit about what you see, because I do feel like entrepreneurs and small businesses generally, are faced with kind of a behemoth journey of trying to figure out like you say, which hats to wear, what’s the ideal role for them, and also along the way having to do a lot, right, they don’t have in house legal counsel, they don’t have probably an in house, you know, CIO, or CFO, or any of the things they need to help them make those decisions as seamlessly as possible from the start. So it ends up I think, a lot of times, plugging in support a little bit like in fits and spurts right, and kind of stair stepping out along the way. What talk to me about what you see with the clients that you work with, when it comes to all those decisions that have to be made, right? are they struggling under the weight of those are they folks, by the time they get to you, they have more clarity or ready for more clarity and therefore get to make less decisions?

Jill James  27:08

Well, usually they’re struggling under the weight of I used to have two or three decisions, I saw the critical path for the business. And now I feel like I have all these choices, or all of these obligations, and I don’t know where to put my time, right, I don’t know what’s going to make a difference. And so you know, that first piece of the exercise is really like, let’s put some intention around your energy, and also figure out like what we have to prioritize to get off your plate just by doing that. But that narrows the set of decisions that we’re going to make, right? Because there’s a bunch of stuff that you’re not going to do and there’s a clear priority of we have to figure out how to have you not do these things anymore. So we’re going to do that first. And then the next step in it is like I actually go through the process of building a pretty detailed what you know, in the venture world is called a pro forma, right? We build out a case of like, if we played out your scenario for your business for the next two years. And you know, we go through, like, what are you offering or your products set and actually look at the margins and the expected sales and the investments and people hiring, like, Where would we be? Right? And I think seeing what I see for people is first like that question of like, I don’t think I can afford people, especially not at like, I want quality people I want to you know, pay living wages, I want to pay good salaries, I want to offer benefits, they look at that and see like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be crushing. You can’t do it. No way I could do it. Yeah, right. But then we layer it in and maybe make some of those jobs, part time jobs, or we start with a consultant and then bring people in full time, right? But it’s like, where do we need the help right now to align to the growth phase that we’re in, but you don’t need everybody at once. And you don’t need to solve every problem at once. The biggest thing with self funded founders, we just have to stair step out of these are the critical path of things we need to do today. Don’t worry about the other things, right? And being given permission of like those other things are not going to make a difference right now. Just leave them. They are not for you don’t worry about them. And so what are the things we have to do today to get us to the next thing, and then okay, we’ve stepped up a little bit. Now we can get bring in this next resource. And you can take this one more thing off your plate, which will make you more focused on this next thing, and that’ll accelerate our growth again, and now we can add this next piece, and maybe you’re feeling more confident. So maybe you’ll use some financing, like maybe you you know, take a loan or set up a line of credit, and then that will also let us accelerate into that next piece. But like I don’t make anybody do anything, right. It’s like if somebody says, I’m not comfortable with that, then we don’t do it. But it’s sort of presenting the possibility and what I find is over time, as people see that that plan, which seems really imaginary and not possible is working, especially you know, three months in, they’re just like, oh, you know what I can trust this like this actually works and So I’m just going to do the things that are in front of me for the next 30 or 60 days. And let’s see, if I keep seeing the evidence that this is working, and I’m gonna keep listening, I’m gonna keep learning. And you know, maybe we make adjustments, but what I find is, it’s again, like asking them to do less, and really do it well to completion. And that’s really the focus of putting around the implementation of the business design boot camp is, you know, then I stay on with people and like work through that. Because what I find is like, our focus starts to bleed out, right? Like it just starts to diffuse have like, all those voices come in of like. Yeah, and it’s really like, right now we need sales, sales don’t come from, like lead generating marketing activities up at this top of the funnel, they come from this, like, let’s focus in on what we’re going to do to get that sale that you need that you put in that sale right here in this box, and we need it this month. And you put two more next month. So we need to cultivate those sales. And I think focusing in on these are the things that will move you forward. Right? Don’t worry about those other things.

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:09

Right? Well, even that I like I can just imagine what an experience of relief for people to have that to have the support in narrowing that down, right, like, do less well to completion. And by the way, you don’t need to be doing ABC XYZ be really hard when people are in the trees, right. And they just cannot see that for themselves. Yeah. So for your folks that complete the boot camp, it sounds like some of them continue on with you. Some of them probably get busy trying to do the plan themselves after the boot camp. Is that right? Or is it like how are your services structured?

Jill James  31:47

So some people do decide to stay on and we continue to work together and we work in sort of six month flights? Okay, sort of replan always the word year ahead. But we’re always looking at on regular check ins of like, where are we at? Where do we need to adjust? What new information do you have? What’s your gut telling you? Because part of this is learning to you know, part of being a CEO is not just the factual information. Part of it is you’re the only person who has the information about your business holistically at this level, we are the rest of us just have pieces. Right? You know what you think you live this every day. So you have to trust yourself to start making some of these decisions without perfect information. Right, you have to feel ready to move forward. And how, you know, can we move that process along for you of you know, what I’m, I’m feeling like we should go for this? Right? I understand the risks now. Like let’s just doing. So that’s a big part of it as well. So I do have people who, you know, say on I’ve had, I have a client rolling off right now has been with me for three and a half years. Yeah, so we definitely do have some, like long life cycles. But I do have other people who go through this process and are like, I just want to try it. Like, I feel like I have a roadmap now. And so let me run with it. And let me see what I can do. And in that case, you know, sometimes we come back and do an annual replan where it’s like what strategic objectives did you get through? And what do we need to reset here? Like where do we need to be going forward? So I do that I know most people think of doing this like November, December, January, February, with people who work with me recurring, we do it between August and October. Because then you get that good runway into the fourth quarter. You know how you’re going to finish out the year and you can start having conversations before we ever get to the top of the year. Yeah. So for me planning really happens at a time that you know, most people on a quiet isn’t thinking about it yet. Yeah, right. We do a lot of planning. And honestly.

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:45

I love that. Do you find that people in part of that journey? Right? And you talked about phasing in, you know, building out supports, like basically bringing in somebody to take a certain thing off your plate or or figuring out what really needs to be there in the first place. Do people struggle the most especially as they’re growing? Do they continue to struggle with delegation? Or is that a muscle that once it’s exercised, and you teach people how to do it that they actually get better at and have an easier time executing on?

Jill James  34:18

We all have sticking points, right? I think there are some things that are easy to delegate, because they’re not things we’d like to do, or, you know, we can see like, I’m never gonna learn that that’s fine, I’ll delegate that. I don’t want to learn that. I think where it gets harder to delegate are either things that used to be our job or things that we feel like, we’re good at, Yeah, we’re good at or things that we feel like like maybe if I let somebody else do this, am I still the CEO? Right. So

Heather Pearce Campbell  34:44

So what might that be? Those kinds of questions like, Am I still the CEO of somebody is doing this?

Jill James  34:51

Right. So I think it’s one it’s like the primary job of the company, right? Of like, Do you need help with sales? Like could we, you know, could we accelerate sales? If you had a dedicated salesperson, but I’m the person who talks to all the customers, I’m the person who likes to, like, get that. I like them to know they’re working with the CEO. Yeah. And so you know, sometimes that’s a sticking point. Sometimes it’s like, I’ve always done the ordering. I’ve always done the merchandising,

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:15

So it can be different sounds like that can be different company to company. Yeah, yeah,

Jill James  35:19

I think there are things that it’s personal to you. And that’s one of the reasons like I just don’t believe when you’re, you’re going through this process that we can just give checklists, or say, like, you’re at this level of business, here’s exactly what to do to be successful, right? Those, that 20% That really makes your business different is super specific to you. And, and to me, like we, it’s our job as business advisors to listen to what that is, and guide the business in that way of, you know, instead of like, I know, you don’t want to do this, but you have to right now, right? Like, I just don’t say that, right? Like, if someone could grow faster by taking out a loan or something like I will present the option, but if they’re like, I’m just really uncomfortable with that. I hate that. I don’t want to do it. Like, I don’t say, well, everybody does this, like, Well, okay, well, let’s let it rest for six weeks. And let’s talk about it again. And I’ll bring it up in how are we feeling about this? Right. Like, and sometimes it’s like, it’s, it’s a growth process. Yeah. So I think for each of us, you know, accepting that part of our entrepreneurial journey is you have to get a little bit beyond your comfort zone, but not so far beyond your comfort zone that it’s paralyzing, right? So what’s that space for you? That is like a little uncomfortable, but you can live in it. And then sometimes we get to a space where we’re feeling comfortable again, and then we’re like, that’s it, I feel great here. But then it’s like, oh, man, I gotta do this again. And it’s like, I sometimes compare it to the children’s story, The Hungry Caterpillar, if that caterpillar just kept turning into a caterpillar, bigger Caterpillar, he’s on a higher leaf, but he’s gonna eat it go in the cocoon and come out a bigger caterpillar. They’re just like, it’s a journey here. There isn’t the moment where it’s just like, I’m done.

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:05

I’ve arrived. I figured it all out. It’s like

Jill James  37:09

These things that used to be I couldn’t even imagine myself doing or now like, day to day I make that decision in like two seconds, or I delegated away. Yeah. And you know, but then there’s a new thing that’s gonna take up your mental space, it’s gonna take time for you to work through it. There’s always something that is like your new limit. Yeah. So what is it? And for some people, it’s mindset things. For some people, it’s delegation. For some people, it’s like, actually, like, the amount that things cost, right? Like just the market rate of thing, right? People are just like the logistics. Yeah, how could I pay someone? $200,000? Right. Like, that’s crazy. I never made $200,000 in a job to hire someone that I’m going to pay $200,000. Right. Like, that’s one that like, you know, that’s, like, be excited that your business can afford that. That’s amazing, right? Like, that’s a trade executive. But, you know, it’s all that, you know, whatever baggage we bring with us, whatever self limiting beliefs we bring with us. It is always a process of whatever that is for you. That’s going to be the thing that we have to work on in the next phase.

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:13

Is it inevitable that the founder becomes the bottleneck or is consistently the bottleneck, like, talk to us about bottlenecks and small businesses?

Jill James  38:22

Um, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s a signal, right? Like, it’s, it’s showing us where we need to go next. So, you know, the founder, typically, we’re at the point I work with people, like, they control everything. Yeah. Right. And so it is the process of figuring out what you want to keep and what you want to let go. And so you know, you are going to be the bottleneck, like, just inevitable. And sometimes it’s like, good in that, like, it holds things back a little bit, you know, and it’s, I think it’s recognizing, like, Are you the bottleneck? Because you don’t want to give up control? Or are you the bottleneck because we’re hitting a growth spurt. And we’re right, because of the growth ratchet, we’re trying to stretch it a little bit so that you understand the job and the person that you want to bring into that job or the partner that you need, right? Like, I think at each point is like, I’m going to do this just a little longer. So that I really understand what I need. So I think it’s like when you know, you’re the bottleneck, knowing why and knowing what purpose it serves, instead of kind of just being like, Oh, I can’t handle that anymore. Let me just throw it through. Doing it everything has to be in tangible.

Heather Pearce Campbell  39:30

Well, and it sounds like there is a period of time where it’s it’s helpful from the standpoint of growth for that person to really for the it’s okay for them to be the bottleneck. be in that position, figure it out, learn more about what’s happening within the company in order to grow to the next level.

Jill James  39:47

Yeah, for me, that’s totally okay. I mean, even I, I’ve had an assistant for like two years, and a few months ago, I realized like having gone through a few different assistants, I was like, I don’t know quite how this job works anymore before This new assistant turns over, I’m gonna take that job back, right, like, traditional CEO or would be like, Don’t ever take that job back, right? But I was like, let me I know it’s gonna suck for a couple weeks. But like, let me do this for a little while and see like, what is breaking? How is my world different than two years ago when I started working with an assistant like what am I asking what’s not working? You know, Where do I stand wherever standard operating procedures fallen down where places where we’re not as organized as we were at another point, like, what are my priorities here for someone new instead of just being keep doing what the previous person was doing? Right? Like, where where can we have a correction point here. So I was totally the bottleneck for several weeks horribly formatted newsletters that I was just like, This is how much time I have I know this bullet stood out still aren’t working, it has to go. Right, right. To come with a caveat where I was like, I did this myself. This is my, you know, CEO homework. I’m not an expert at HubSpot. Okay.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:01

Hilarious. Well, and I, I truthfully find that it helps to be you know, really transparent about that kind of stuff in business with our clients with people that we’re in touch with, in part, because, you know, collectively, we all learn from each other. But, you know, COVID, I would say the, the experience of being a mom to two little people during COVID, and also running a business, you know, the, the more open, I’ve been about it, like people are so flexible and receptive, and I get it and no problem. And it’s, it’s a different experience than when the standard is perfection. And you just expect, like all systems running at 100% all the time. Similar to your recent VA experience, I’m in the process of losing my VA, right now she’s a mom, and she’s got three little boys and there’s just so much on her plate, she just is gonna take some time off, she just needs a break. She’s VA to a couple of folks in business. And so I’m in the process of trying to hire and train a new VA and like you, I’m like, Okay, I think that it’s, I probably need to sit down and, like, look in great detail. Because even though I design the systems, a lot of them have just been running, you know, and, and the VA has been running them for certain aspects of my business. But when it comes to training the new person, like I might have to be the one that sits down and actually creates a little training video on some of the key stuff and really decide does that still work for me? You know, does that still work for my business? But it is, I agree that it is a really valuable exercise. Because, you know, when you do take peeks into certain things that have maybe had lids on them for a while, right, you have an opportunity to change it, improve it, you know, have it match up to where you’re at now? What are you finding any particular things in your business, that you’re changing based on the experience of what you’re just or putting yourself through right now?

Jill James  42:55

I’m, what I’m really finding is, if we need, you know, think more people should be able to access more things, you know, consistency and file structure, where do things live, right? It’s like teaching your kid Montessori toys. Like this goes here for this purpose. And here’s how we name the file. Know, everybody named the file the same thing, okay, one person is in charge of going through this whole file and renaming everything. So it suits our convention, like things like that really make a difference as you grow, have, you know, it’s a small thing. But you know, the time that it takes to like, just search for something and then figure out, is it the right one? Is this the right version? Is it like these things like then people have to come back to you, as the founder? And be like, is this the version of the contract we used three years ago when you did the contract, right? And you’re just like, oh, I don’t want to do. So I do think some of these, like these standards of, you know, taking a moment, right before you intend to bring on new people and say, okay, like, let’s make sure this is standardized, right. And it’s, it’s seems relatively small, but the amount of time it saves and the transparency it creates in your organization to be able to say, this is where you find things, go ahead and look in the client file, all the client files have these three folders. And so if you want to find something, go and look in those, like go ahead and look, right, I showed the client folder with you go through it, see which file and see what questions you have. Right. So you know, things like that, you know, instead of having everything like live on something that only you can control, like putting it into a standard structure, or other people can find it and they can self educate and they can come to you with thoughtful questions beyond where is it and is this the right one? Like if we can start with a why did we put this into the past contract or I didn’t work with so and so. Right? Like that’s a completely different level of question and it also helps your people have more wins right away, to be like You know what I get how this works. I trust the process. Like, let me start moving forward.

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:05

Yeah. Well, it is amazing how a little structure a little of the right structure, right can really streamline that so that people are looking at the important information not getting stuck in the details that just take up people’s time.

Jill James  45:18

Right? I’m sure you’ve seen like someone who went down the rabbit hole of like, all like a some version of the contract that wasn’t final. Right made it Oh, my gosh, like, memorized all the details. And then you’re like, that’s not the final contract. Now they’re anchored on the wrong stuff.

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:34

Yeah, it can really, I mean, it can really throw in, especially in the context of a two way conversation with an outside party. I mean, it can completely throw things off. Right. So yeah, we want to avoid all those hiccups. So obviously, the the goal of your work, I imagine for most of your clients is to help them scale to help them scale in a way that, you know, creates the vision that they want achieves their business goals, maybe in some ways that she’s achieved their personal goals as well. How what do you have to say to people who are in the like, six figure range and want to scale to seven figures? I know that’s a longer conversation. But what’s the summary of what that takes to do?

Jill James  46:19

Well, I think it’s how far into the six figures are you? Because 150,000 is a lot different than 950. Right? Right. That’s like, Let’s go cloth one more sale. Right. So I think if you’re sort of in the 250 to 500 range, there’s the conversation of like, there’s a very different foundational conversation, we have to have to get you to a million and a make sure that you have like to double or triple the size of the business. Do we have the foundation that we need to build on to get you there, right? Because this just isn’t simply an exercise of selling more stuff? No, no, it’s like, are we selling the right stuff? Are we doing like, are we doing the right activities? Right? And how quickly do you want to get there? I think that’s another question that I ask people all the time, because you can go from two to 52 million in a year. But is that something that you want to do? Like, are you ready to go through the transformation of your business at that pace? And it’s okay, if you don’t, right? You know, I have other people were sort of like, I just want to get this big, because then I’d be able to pay myself this much. And I would be comfortable at that level of business. And I think that’s a perfectly fine answer to be like, I would be super happy here. What I find with a lot of people is when you give them permission to be like, That’s great. Okay, let’s get you there. It’s easier than they thought. They’ve started to understand more about their business. And then they’re like, that was kind of easy. Let’s go over there. Right? Here, three years, and it took six months, like, Let’s go for the next thing. So I think, seeing a path of like, okay, I can really do this. And if I do these things like we can we can get to hear in the timespan that I’m looking for and like, Is that is that good for me? Or do I want to ask a different question? Yeah. So I think that’s just looking at, when we’re really intentional about growth, it has a stopping point, right? We’re not growing just to grow, we’re not saying like, just grow as fast as you can and get as many customers as you can, right? For most of my clients, there are specific number of sales or a specific number of customers or specific number of products and a certain mix that we want to try to hit because it really is the margins that we have both get them paid and create the capital we need for growth. Yeah, right. So we have to keep those ratios if we want to keep moving forward. And so you know, I think that that’s a point of, like, when you’re saying, I don’t just want to grow, I want to grow like this For these reasons, right? And then that intention drives your business forward in a way that you get the right mix of business, you get customers that are a fit for you. And then you can pause and say, Am I good? Or do I want to do want to take the next one, I want to pause here for a second just, you know, catch our breath, before we do the next thing. Or sometimes it’s like, we could go to the next level. But you know, that means going through another two years of this, and this is actually a really good business for us. Like we’re good here. You know, we’re just gonna refine the the customer mix and keep our eyes open for the next opportunity. And I think sometimes there’s also that permission of like, you do not have to double the business every single year. Right? I love that have a natural stopping point of this is a really good size of business. We like this. It’s fine. Like you do not have to grow infinitely. We are not in the stock market, right? We don’t have investors that like we have our eye for it’s you. Paying your employees or taking care of people putting a good product in market are you creating value? Those are good enough answers to be answering like it doesn’t have to be infinite.

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:00

No, I love that. And you know the idea of permission. Also, if this idea that there is a stopping point or there can be a stopping point, I think also respects the fact that there are levels of business where what got you here will not get you there, there are natural levels of business where you’re going to stop anyways for a time until you figure out the new strategy, right?

Jill James  50:23

Yeah, and sometimes it’s a it’s a competition thing, like, okay, we’d have to move into this other company stay nice. And maybe that opens up the idea, like, what if we bought that company? Right? Like these, this is a very different conversation, then how do I pay myself? Yeah, you know, there are different tools and different opportunities at different levels of business that like there are different things we can do for that next level of scale. Right? So it’s, it’s really about like building up in a financially healthy way that is meaningful to you. And that creates opportunities further down the road of Do you want to keep going? And what’s the right way to do that?

Heather Pearce Campbell  51:00

Yeah. On on the topic of funding, right, because you work with self funded founders, what percentage of your people and I would say after a time, like, assuming the ones that you’ve been working with for a while, right, have done some of the initial steps, what percentage ended up getting things like outside loans or line of credit, or something else that helps to feed the growth of their business?

Jill James  51:28

Probably over time, 100%. Right, at some point, everybody gets comfortable with bank financing. A bank finds financing once people understand how it works, and they can see the numbers of it, that it’s just a growth accelerator, you borrow the money, you pay it back, you borrow the money, you pay it back, right? Too many of us are in the mindset of like, you borrow money, because you’re not sure how you’re going to be profitable. Yeah. And so when you’re looking at it like that, it’s like, how will I ever pay this money back, but we’re in the flow of business, where it’s like, oh, we kick off this much cash every month, we can pay it back. It’s like, we can cover the loan. So I think once you understand the finances of your business, people get more comfortable with the idea of I could go faster. If I had some more money, then it turns into like, how much and from where, and how much does it cost? And what’s the right vehicle for you? I think we’ve had sort of a very low risk way for more people to get comfortable with this in the last year and a half around the eidl loans and around the PPP. Like seeing, Oh, I had an extra $25,000 in my business that made this kind of a difference to me. Right? It doesn’t have to be huge amounts, but being able in a low risk way to say, let me see what this could do. Oh, yeah, I was totally able to pay it back. Oh, yeah. It totally made my business go faster. But I think there are, you know, also deciding, like, what’s your personal risk tolerance? And I do think also, as people understand, like, how the legal structures around businesses work, like what’s what’s a pass through what has to have a personal guarantee? Right? You know, some of the things that I’m sure you’re dealing with, with people, it has a personal covenant, or goes on to your personal credit versus what stays with the business, like understanding there are different mechanisms for this. Some of them that keep the risk with the business, or, you know, starting to get into entity division, where it’s like this entity, which is only this part of the business, like now you technically have to have another LLC, and this LLC is going to do this part of the business, right? That might be something we can sell separately, or we want to contain the risk of what’s going on here. And so I think that there are those growth steps of, you know, kind of, at the right moment, being able to say, we don’t have to do this in the core business, like we could carve this up vote or we could do this a different way. So there’s some of those risk management strategies that, as you know, most of us only have credit cards and home loans. Right. So that’s the financing that we understand. And there are a whole universe of other options in the business world that we can use. It’s just about your comfort and separating the stuff in your personal life from the stuff in your business life so that you know that stuff in your personal life is protected.

Heather Pearce Campbell  54:11

Yes, that’s right. I mean, it’s that’s so much what I speak about, and the reason why getting some outside eyeballs, on your business, on your business strategies on, you know, on your goals, so that you can figure out what gets you from here to there. And most people are just not going to know that stuff. And they’re not going to have access to that stuff outside of getting help in a way that will truly transform their business.

Jill James  54:39

Right. Right. If none of this is intuitive, right. It’s all rules somebody made up,

Heather Pearce Campbell  54:44

Right. Well, and I think I think some people get get trapped into the line of thinking around like, well, I should somehow know this or I should somehow be smart enough to figure it out. Other people have figured it out, you know, and keeping themselves I was like, relatively contained, rather than just saying, Look, this is a team sport. And I know I need to get all these other people on my team.

Jill James  55:08

Yeah, absolutely. I think your professional team around you makes such a difference. You know, whether they are people you pay every month or people who deliver services, I think one of the biggest, you know, some of the biggest missing pieces, most people know they need a lawyer, they under use them, and they under budget for them, we always up the legal budgets, but like most people know, they need a lawyer. And you know, most people know they need an insurance person, but like, most people don’t have a relationship at their bank. But they set up a bank account, and they never speak to a human there. And I think you know, banking still works that way. Like you can talk to a human being there about what’s going on in your business about what your needs are. And it makes a huge difference in your access to services. Huge difference, a small business. Yeah, you know, so there, there is definitely like a lengthy kind of professional team of building those relationships. For people who are outside advisors to you that you may not think about inviting into the conversation.

Heather Pearce Campbell  56:04

That’s right. No, and I regularly tell people look, you need a CPA or somebody who’s going to help you with tax strategy you absolutely need. I mean, obviously, my function, somebody handling legal for you if your plan is to grow if your plan is to actually build a legitimate business, right, that has influence and does what you want it to do in the world. You need somebody in the insurance camp, you need somebody in the financial strategies, whether it’s a personal wealth advisor around how you do personal investing, whether it’s somebody who’s able to help you look at both your business and the personal side, I know that some people live in that space, whether it’s different people at different times, for different reasons, right? Because our needs change over time. But yeah, it’s absolutely critical. So Jill, what I know, and we’re bumping up against time, I want to be respectful of your time here. What, um, what final thoughts do you have for folks listening today?

Jill James  57:02

I think the the biggest thing that I would like people to take away is like, there’s no one way to be a CEO. And I think we have a lot of limiting beliefs around who is the CEO? What is the CEO supposed to be? What did they look like? What are they good at, and the only really, in our world definition to be the CEO is you need to start the company, you need to figure out how it’s gonna make money. And then you need to run it. So you know, there are a lot of different ways, you know, even if you’re a creative person, you can still be a CEO. And, you know, figure out what that means for you. Again, never give up the finances, always keep the finances. But other than that, right, there are a lot of things that you do not have to do that traditional CEOs might do. And that doesn’t make you not a CEO. So I think we kind of need to embrace that term. And instead of just being like, Well, I’m a founder or I’m a right, even, it’s pretty early on, it really changes the dynamic of how you think about your business, when you call yourself the CEO, right? Even if you don’t have anybody to eat Oh, yet. Just being like, they will come I needed, I need to get my CEO hat on, even though I’m still doing a lot of the work, but I will get there. And so if that is your plan, right? I want to be the CEO of this business, regardless of the size that it’s at, this is my intention for myself, that really moves your business forward. So I would say like, give yourself the freedom to use the title. Don’t feel bad about anybody on the internet was like you don’t have any people. You’re not a CEO. I’m like, whatever. Do you run a company? And come tell me you can’t use that title.

Heather Pearce Campbell  58:48

Right? No, it’s such a gem. I just I love that invitation to just more expansive thinking around the role. And you’re right. Like, I think so many people do have those ideas of like, oh, a CEO is really this or this or this, and I’m not any of those things. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Jill, where do you show up online? Where do you like for people to connect with you? And then I’ve got one more question for you.

Jill James  59:14

Okay. So I am pretty active on LinkedIn, on my personal it’s Jill James on pop up on that one. So I post several times a week. I like to try stuff out on LinkedIn before I you know, make it into a blog post newsletter or whatever. I just want to put my ideas out there. So that’s a great place and I love LinkedIn. I’m such a fan. Yeah, yeah, I have a weekly newsletter. That is on my website, thejilljames.com and if you put slash newsletter after that are right on the homepage, you can sign up it’s that’s free and it’s all tips. Focus on self funded small business owners around growth around mindset. And you know, as programs come up as deadlines come up, we also talk about like all of those new things, new opportunities for you to take advantage of in the self funded small business space?

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:00:02

No, I love that. And if you’re listening, be sure to pop over, we’ll share all of Jill’s links will share the link to sign up for her newsletter, her social media links at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast, you answered my question with the newsletter whether there was something that you know you’d give away to the audience. But what also this will be the last question are Is there anything timing wise either coming up for you that you would like people to know about or that’s relevant to the audience based on time of year that they should be thinking about?

Jill James  1:00:33

Sure, well, definitely get your health care covered. Right. If you are going through, whether you’re going through an exchange, or you’re offering it through your company, we are talking on November 16. Although you may have the option to wait until the end of January in your state, I would recommend like you just know what those costs are going to be what plan you’re going to be on by December 1. If you’re doing corporate, make sure you’re pushing to get get everybody through open enrollment by December 1, so that everything’s on board for the end of January, I would say the other thing that most people don’t do is, this is a good time of year to have a pre planning meeting for end of year, like pre close, right? Where you coming in? Is there extra cash? Is there tax management that we need to do? Or do you want to pay yourself more? Right? Once we get to like the last week of the year, it’s really hard to start moving these things around. So right now is a really good time to have a pre closed meeting and then set a date of okay, we’re going to talk on this date. And if this number is this, we’re going to do this if this number is this, we’re going to do this, you know, but kind of have a strategy like you should not be making that call on December 28. And it’s too late on January 3, there’s not a lot that we can do. So this is a really good time of year to you know, kind of figure out make a bet on whether your is going to close

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:01:50

Totally, that kinda push. Well, it’s yeah, it’s really key. And it can make a huge difference. Like yes, right that matter of a few days or a week or missing a deadline can make a really significant difference. Jill is such a pleasure to connect with you. I feel like there’s so much more that we could speak about I am really excited that we cross paths. I’m super happy to be sharing this episode. I hope I get to have you on here again.

Jill James  1:02:15

I would love that. Thanks.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:02:17

Thank you.

GGGB Outro  1:02:21

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you’re doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.