Win More Clients

With Tim Hyde, a Fixer, leading Keap Certified Partner, business growth strategist, and an authority in sales and marketing automation for small businesses in Australia. Tim co-founded one of Australia’s first social media sites in 1999 pre-dating Facebook by 5 years, and spent much of the 00’s educating people on how to get the most out of the emerging digital marketing landscape. He has since moved on to help businesses convert more of the attention they create from their marketing efforts and since 2014. He has worked with more than 1000 business owners in 37 countries to help them optimize their sales and marketing strategy with a particular focus on CRM, sales lifecycle and marketing automation.

Tim brings your Digital Marketing to the next level. He also founded Win More Clients to help coaches, consultants and business owners create a leveraged, fast track to business growth. He provides business leaders with the advice, support, and tools needed to achieve more time, money, and freedom. 

In this engaging episode, Tim shares some major nuggets of wisdom related to sales and marketing, including thoughts on what has changed over time within the world of marketing, and what remains the same. You will be reminded of the power of fundamentals and what it really takes to successfully build a business.

You will also hear about Tim’s journey beginning with the days of using the Yellow Pages to his early adoption of online marketing and how to focus on the right advertising channels for your business. You will also hear him share his advice on relationship building, the power of connection, and the importance of connecting with the right people.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • How social media changed how we interact with people.
  • “You can be in a mastermind with the right people, but if you don’t build relationships within, nothing comes of it.”
  • Fundamentals of marketing haven’t changed.
  • What is the three-thirty rule?

“We need to look at business from a different perspective, whether it’s from a marketing or from a legal perspective… we need to ultimately get to how we connect with the right people in a way that’s authentic to us.”

-Tim Hyde

Check out these highlights:

  • 05:45 How Tim got into the digital marketing space.
  • 13:07 What has stayed the same and what has changed over time.
  • 19:08 Difference between the advertising channels from then and now.
  • 33:55 Tim shares where he can see his clients getting tripped up.
  • 49:51 His final takeaway for the listeners.

How to get in touch with Tim:

On social media:




Learn more about Tim, by visiting his website

Special gift for listeners: Get a free marketing scorecard to discover where you should be focusing here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what to expect today…

Tim Hyde  00:00

But you know, we need to do these things, we need to sort of stand out, we need to do things a little bit differently, right? We need to look at business from a different perspective, whether it’s from a marketing perspective, whether it’s from a legal perspective, you know, we need to kind of, ultimately get to how do we connect with the right people in a way that’s authentic to us? And to be honest, as much as we’d like to say yes to absolutely. Well, you know, as entrepreneurs, we often come into it, not necessarily thinking of the impact we create, we want to create, but it does become an important thing, right? I know it is for you, Heather, as well. We’re here to create the impact on the people’s lives that we touch. But you know, it’s okay to say no.

GGGB Intro  00:00

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  00:00

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving entrepreneurs throughout the US and the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit and Great Business®. I am super excited to bring you my new friend Tim Hyde. Welcome Tim.

Tim Hyde  01:43

Thanks. It’s great to be here.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:44

Super happy to have you here. We were just chatting timezones because Tim is in Australia, so it’s early morning for him and tomorrow apparently he has a much earlier morning appointment so we can thank our international online business friends for those appointments that back our schedules out a little bit.

Tim Hyde  02:03

And of course, we’ve got Daylight Savings coming up in another month.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:06

Ah, you guys have that too? Yes, I know that screws everything up. Well, super happy to have you here, Tim, we for those of you that don’t know, Tim. Tim Hyde is a fixer, leading keep Certified Partner, and an authority in sales and marketing automation for small businesses. Tim co-founded one of Australia’s first social media sites in 1999, predating Facebook by five years and spent much of the 2000s educating people on how to get the most out of the emerging digital marketing landscape. Tim has since moved on to help businesses convert more of the attention they create from their marketing efforts. And since 2014, he has worked with more than 1000 business owners in 37 countries to help them optimize their sales and marketing strategy with a particular focus on CRM, sales lifecycle and marketing automation. Tim, you’re the guy when it comes to marketing and automation, people need to hear what you have to say. So I’m super excited, we connected. The real backstory is that Tim and I are in a mastermind together. And I’ve been in there kind of, I don’t know, off and on, but for two years, right, it’s been COVID. So we can’t always be as present as we’d like to be. And that was my experience with this particular group is I joined met a lot of people and then things tapered off because my kids were not in school. Right. And then recently, I’ve connected with a whole group of folks again, and Tim is in that batch. So Tim, I’m super happy that we have connected.

Tim Hyde  03:45

And it’s been it’s actually really good. Ironically, I’ve been in the same group for about the same period. I think

Heather Pearce Campbell  03:51

Maybe you were newer, I was like, I don’t know how long Tim has been in.

Tim Hyde  03:54

Like, I think for a lot of people COVID presented some very interesting challenges and all our best laid plans suddenly got disrupted, isn’t that the truth, we had to adjust. And, you know, we’ve got these things and I guess these relationships, that if we go back to develop, they actually become really profitable and value for us and, and that’s really, I love about how you know, we have we’ve connected and become really good friends in the process.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:26

Totally, well and made new interesting connections for each other. And like all the good things that flow from even a single connection are really interesting to observe, and how quickly that can happen. But yes, I agree. The best laid plans, you know, COVID had away with many of those and that mastermind group was the one thing that I thought like, Oh, I’m gonna kind of drop off of like my other groups because I’m really clear. I don’t have the time for some of these. Even that one ended up falling to the wayside a little bit so I get it. So happy that we’ve connected and I would Love because I even like learning new things about you right now reading your bio. Right? You’ve been in the online marketing world for a bit. Do you want to share with us how you originally even got started in the online marketing space?

Tim Hyde  05:15

Yeah, absolutely. I think I mean, I did not do very, very well in school. And I’m really clean just before we hit record. And we were talking about how our school systems in many ways don’t support kids, but kids with sort of different learning needs. And I was definitely one of those I was incredibly bored through school, I didn’t really want to apply myself, I’m sure my parents pull their hair out, like I am with my son. Just turn up, just follow the bouncy ball, just do the work. But it held no interest for me. My first love way back from a six year old was was entrepreneurship. And applying my Uncle Scrooge golden books for that. If you remember those, I was not interested in school, you know, when I went to uni, didn’t really do very well at uni either, did try to tell my mother once that uni was about experience and getting to know people a lot about study that didn’t go down very well. As she was paying for it at the time, I did find the following year that I had to pay for my own university studies. And that very quickly said, Oh, okay, that’s expensive. Anyway, I found myself working in it after uni. And I think we were seeing this sort of changing landscape, right, you know, as I did it at uni justice, sort of the emergence of this new communication modality that we now call the Internet. And during the 90s, I was deploying boxes onto people’s desktops at work and doing a lot of business analysis of stuff, we would write code to sort of interrogate databases and give people information that, you know, they they really didn’t have easily before to make decisions. And I was looking all these things. And one of the things that I was noticing, that is the yellow pages, the old book that kicked everyone’s, that was the way everyone advertised previously, and that was coming off the shelf, and next to the desk, and it was being put under, you remember those big CRT cathode ray tube monitors, it was being put under the monitors, to raise them up to what we thought the right economic height was? Well, we didn’t really know much about the economics at that stage. Like everyone was doing, I’m like, okay, and I remember a mate of mine, in the late 90s. He had just spent $35,000 advertising to get the back page right at the very the yellow pages. And I went from his office where he was talking about how exciting this was that it managed to secure this advertising. And then I went to my wife’s office. And the first five desks I worked walked past all had the Yellow Pages facedown under the monitor. That was a fantastic advertising spend. But my launch into into the digital marketing space was a mate of mine, who was working in the press gallery at Parliament House here in Australia. So he came to me and a couple other mates and said we should do this thing, right? You know, we’ve been following these, these forums in the US about their Microsoft and anti competitive practices and the emergence of Linux as a coding language. Why don’t we create one of these for our hometown of Canberra? Cameras very much like Washington, DC. It’s a political town. Yeah, most people work for government. So let’s do this. We thought, okay, brilliant, that sounds like fun. As you do, we can create this, you know, this environment where people can submit their own contents, you know, engage in other people’s content, right, you know, start talking to each other share their opinions about what’s going on. And we went off to the computer fair, if you remember computers as well, it used to have those to be bought $600 and computer parts stuck them together. Unfortunately, the heatsink didn’t fit over where the RAM chips on this motherboard was. So we literally put our first server together with an angle grinder and just literally whacked some code on this thing, right? Open source code and made a vise manifest coded upper, a forum software. And we just started writing about stuff that was going on in invited contribution from the community as well. And this kind of first time that people could really MySpace was the thing, I guess around them. But it was really the first time that people and one of the first times people would actually really contributed an opinion on just about anything that was important to them. Yeah. And that’s how I got into it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  09:48

Well, I know you think back to the roots of the internet, it’s so interesting that right because you and I probably I’m guessing had similar timelines in our lives. I remember learning how to type on a typewriter in my typing class, right. And then it was right at the end, like maybe my senior year of high school, I feel like maybe it was junior year because my brother was still home, he got a computer that sat at home, on a desk, that, you know, I would sometimes go over and like, I had no idea how to use it. I remember clicking like grabbing the mouse and moving an icon on the desktop, and thinking I’m broke something, I had no idea what the interface was how to use it. It’s so funny to me to think back to that time. And like, our kids now, my daughter could do things before the age of two, right, that I probably couldn’t do in my late 20s.

Tim Hyde  10:45

Yeah, yeah, I think we’ve seen you know, in the last 20 years, you know, the rate of technological change, and the rate of how we’ve changed our communication is so massively different social media, which basically dominates the marketing landscape, right now. There isn’t really much all of them 15 years, probably 10 years in reality, as they’ve changed how they’ve, you know, social media has changed how we interact with people, and even sort of 12-13 years ago, when sort of LinkedIn started to get into some momentum. I mean, LinkedIn is in 2002, start as a company. But it wasn’t till the late noughties, that LinkedIn became a platform. And that was where you put your CV, you recall, and if you want to put your CV on LinkedIn, and you were approached by recruiters.

Heather Pearce Campbell  11:34

Just like a placeholder, yes. 

Tim Hyde  11:36

Yeah. But you know, as a business tool, I think, you know, the last 10 years has been really interesting, both for Facebook, Instagram, now Twitter obviously is becoming lighter, you know, people looking at the sort of, not Twitter, TikTok as a business tool, you know, people are really changing the way they interact and interface with prospects, right with audiences. And I still here to this day, and oh, my god, I hate Facebook, you know, are your customers there? If so, where your customers are, this is where you need to be as well. But, you know, when we talk, customer lifecycle is people, it’s not just enough to know where your customers are, and where you need to be, we still need to be build this depth of relationship. In order to have benefit from these platforms in the same way that you were talking about, you know, the mastermind that we’re in, you can be in a mastermind with the right people. But if you don’t build relationships within, nothing comes of it

Heather Pearce Campbell  12:38

Nothing comes of it. That’s right, well, and I was gonna ask you, in your time, on various platforms, even in your early work on social media, are there some things that you feel like some lessons you’ve learned that have really stayed the same and stayed consistent over time? And then are there some things that have surprised you or you feel like are drastically different than where things sorted out? I’d be curious in kind of your reflection over time. 

Tim Hyde  13:05

Yeah, look, the type of work, that’s one that’s definitely the same, it’s not an easy thing you need to work in like anything you’re doing in your marketing, you need to work it. Second one would be that 3% of people will hate you no matter what you do.

Heather Pearce Campbell  13:22

That’s such a good…

Tim Hyde  13:25

Statistics. On the spot, I don’t actually know it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  13:32

My version of that is, I think it’s actually higher than that 678 percent, it’s actually relatively high, if you read about it, of all people have personality disorders, right? Like you even because I do a lot of work with my clients around liability and risk, right? So it’s about clarity, and clarity, and our communications or marketing or legal contracts, all of these touch points in our business. But it’s basically the same result, which is that the way I interpret that is like, you’re not for everyone, right, which you just have to be okay with, but also people are going across your path that just from a numbers game, whether it’s social media, whether it’s inside your database, whether it ends up being a client that you work with, not everybody is for your business, and you do have to have some structure and support in place for that. But you know, it’s funny that you say that 3% of people will hate you. So just deal with it.

Tim Hyde  14:30

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. You know, you might be too white to black to brown, too successful, not successful enough, too religious, not religious enough, or too tall, too short, too male, too female. But it’s not really about you. It’s more about where they’re coming from. And I think that’s a really important lesson we need to learn. If you don’t have to do it, from a social media perspective, I guess you don’t have to do the social media thing. There’s other ways to connect with people by law. Do you think we need to recognize that the fundamentals of marketing and business haven’t changed? Yeah. Okay. And this is probably a really important takeaway, I’d like to leave people with the fundamentals of marketing haven’t changed. So as much as you will see people on Facebook going, you know, come to my brand new training, one of the favorite, one of the best words that marketers use, isn’t an inside tip, I’m gonna pull back the curtain a little bit is new, right? So when you see new technique, a new strategy, a new tactic, a new blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, ding, ding, ding, ding should be messy warning bells, right? Because it’s not really that much that is new. The fundamentals of customer lifecycle very much met, you know, mirror the way that we connect with our significant other in our life, we meet somebody, we add value to that relationship, we pursue the relationship, it’s not up to them to pursue us. Right? At some point, that other person is going to tell us whether they’re ready or not. Right? For my wife, it was she was, we wish she would stop at jewelry stores all the time and leave the jewelry catalogs around the house was up to me to pay attention to this sort of stuff that that she was giving me all the buying signals. We celebrated, you know, our engagement with an onboarding process, which we call an engagement party and a wedding and a honeymoon and then a second honeymoon. And in order to sort of keep the relationship alive for the subsequent 23 years, I had to wake up every single morning and rewind the business.

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:41

I love that. 

Tim Hyde  16:42

Okay. And further, listen, now that I have children. When I asked my kids to do something, they don’t do the thing I want them to do the first time.

Heather Pearce Campbell  16:53

I said that is shocking. I know. 

Tim Hyde  16:57

If anyone please, if anyone’s got a tip for that, please write.

Heather Pearce Campbell  17:02

Funny, right? So my son knew, I think we could probably share some parallel stories. Same thing, we’ve had to get all kinds of parenting coaching and support and stuff just around like, how do we parent the child in the way that’s the best fit for him. But our second came along. And I remember when she was about one and a half, I asked her to put her little shoes over in the basket by the door. And she looked at me and she picked up her shoes, and she went and put them in the basket by the door I just about fell over. I was like, What? What is this little person listen to me and like did the thing anyways, it really was one of those moments. Like I can’t believe this just happened. And I also had the thought like, Oh, if parents are having kids like this, no wonder they keep having it.

Tim Hyde  17:55

This is bliss. This is amazing. Then you have a second one and second one. The third one the third one. It won’t stop.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:00

Right? Depends which order they come in. Oh my gosh, that’s so funny.

Tim Hyde  18:04

But if we look at our marketing, alright, and our business needs oxygen, right? Yeah, your customers are the oxygen of our business. They allow us to do everything else. And obviously more sales solves a multitude of sins. That’s a really good thing to celebrate. And if we remember, you know, if we look at, you know, how we build personal relationships, if we don’t pursue the relationship, the relationship doesn’t pursue us. Yeah. Okay, because it’s not their priority to buy our shit.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:36

No, and even if it would be their priority, did they know a little bit more about us? The reality is there’s so much competition, not even from our competitors, just so much competition for time and attention in life generally, right? Of course, we have to pursue. The thing that’s so interesting about that is to watch like certain industries not really understand that, especially if they were old school, traditional industries where they could just hang up a sign, and people would find them.

Tim Hyde  19:06

Right, like, you know, the number of advertising channels used to be limited, very, very limited. It was literally the Yellow Pages, one or two TV channels, maybe radio, and the newspaper in your town, right. But now we’ve got literally 1000s and we’re competing for attention, not just locally as well. But obviously, we’re competing for attention globally. And I think what people miss when they’re building it, right, you can either reach more people, where you can meet fewer people with deeper relationships, hopefully more people with deeper relationships. But what we often forget is that, you know, we don’t if we look at their own diet, you know, buying behaviors if we sort of turn the mirror on ourselves. We don’t necessarily buy from the best. Now, what we do is we buy from companies and people that we like.

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:55

Yes, it’s such a good point to make It’s an even just the simplicity of that because people go like, Oh, of course, of course that makes sense. But when you actually look at, like your own experiences buying, because I think it’s easy to bypass that and go like, Oh, well, no, you know, logically like, of course, I want the best. I’m a researcher, I’m gonna check all the boxes and look at how it means, you know, but when you actually look at your buying behaviors, I mean, as a recent example, there’s a there’s a Ford dealership right down the road for me literally, like one minute away. I’m in love with the Ford Bronco, right? The Ford Bronco sport, actually. And the problem is, I didn’t know that until I went and did some test driving. But just down the road, this is a great dealership, we’ve had our other Ford, which we inherited from my husband’s mom, for quite a time, it’s treated us really well, like we should want to buy from these folks down the road. But what happened is we went and test drove. And they didn’t have the exact one that I was looking at, I wanted to drive the model that I really had my eye on. So we went to a different one. But the difference in responsiveness was significant.

Tim Hyde  21:08

So you’d find what you like. You’d like a local one.

Heather Pearce Campbell  21:12

I’ll drive? Well. Interestingly, I thought I would. But no, they all drive clear around the water to go to the other one. Because guess what they did from day one responded every single time text back call back same day, right? Pure respond, but the customer service was through the roof compared to this one right down the hill. And I you know, it was an easy decision for me like, sorry, you guys should have my business.

Tim Hyde  21:41

This is really interesting example, right? You know, the one that’s really close to you, it’s easier to get to, right, make your life easy. They sell exactly the same product exactly the same. But the big difference is, you know, and we talked customer service being the sort of the reason that you you know, the reason, but ultimately, you will buy from brands and people that you like, and you’ll go out of your way to do it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:05

This is right, I felt ignored after the first week of trying to get in touch with this first one. I was like whatever. And then I go in contact this guy NEMA, you know, across the water in truthfully, a city or town that we don’t live in, right, but he is Johnny on the spot getting back to me with smiley faces immediate text. And I’m like, of course, I have an affinity to him. Right, like, you cared enough about me to be responsive to answer my questions to to go even deeper into like, oh, did you know there’s a way to even save on this? Are you a Costco member? Right, like, exploring things that I didn’t even know that I should be asking. Yeah, they want my business. And I you know, and the car’s not even in production? And it’s like, oh, yeah, such an easy choice for me. Totally. Yeah.

Tim Hyde  22:53

Okay. And that’s because they kind of they’ve, they’ve ticked this light box, right? We we often think and I think from a social media perspective, and I think in general, all over the place that we, we think we just need to our expert each other, right? And it’s very difficult to keep out this person, right, we need to do less of that people don’t necessarily want the best in the world, they just want some of this comp.,

Heather Pearce Campbell  23:18

Can you say that again? We need to do less of that, folks, that was so genius, we really do need to do less of that.

Tim Hyde  23:27

We just need to you know, we need to be likeable and approachable. I mean, I just recently joined a BNI group. So if you don’t know, that’s business, networking International, you go up there and you do your pitch your 62nd pitch each week, and you know, and people refer to you. And I, you know, and everyone sort of gets up. And of course, by the time you get through 30 or 35 members, everyone’s like, a little bit brain dead and can’t remember my coffee, right? Where’s my coffee and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Because anyone’s like, hi, I’m Tim and I do this and data and this week I’d like referral to Bob etc. And so this week like last week, I you know, in order to break the network a little bit and and seem a little bit out of the ordinary like saying Adele.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:15

Adele, yeah. Oh my god, very badly. Oh my gosh, I love that so much.

Tim Hyde  24:26

But immediately it’s allowed me to connect my personality with other members of the group immediately it’s me has stood out from everybody else because I’m doing something that has absolutely nothing to do with my expertise.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:37

Okay, which song was it? I just have to ask. 

Tim Hyde  24:40


Heather Pearce Campbell  24:40

Oh, yes. Okay, perfect. 

Tim Hyde  24:44

I can’t remember. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:45

That’s all right.

Tim Hyde  24:47

Let’s not go there unless you break the internet.

Heather Pearce Campbell  24:51

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Tim Hyde  27:29

But you know, we need to do these things, we need to sort of stand out, we need to do things a little bit differently, right? We need to look at business from a different perspective, whether it’s from a marketing perspective, whether it’s from a legal perspective, you know, we need to kind of ultimately get to how do we connect with the right people in a way that’s authentic to us? And to be honest, as much as we’d like to say yes to absolutely. Well, you know, as entrepreneurs, we often come into it, not necessarily thinking of the impact we create, we want to create, but it does become an important thing, right? I know it is for you there as well. Right? We’re here to create the impact on the people’s lives that we touch. But you know, it’s okay to say no. 

Heather Pearce Campbell  28:13

Yeah, so true. So true. Well, and the thing that I love even about your, you know, the simple reminder of like really showing up doing it differently, like not out exporting to experts, which I totally see all the time, every day online, right? People feeling the need to do that. But this idea of like pursuing the relationship, like all of these things blend together. I even just think of that, for example, like, the way he pursued the relationship was by being super responsive, asking, Could he text me sending me updates, even at odd times, where I’m like, Whoa, he’s still thinking about me, even though I’m sure he wrapped up his work day and was super busy, but knew he needed to follow up to make sure that that communication stayed open, right. I’m not saying people should send text at all odd hours, just saying he went above and beyond, but also inserted his personality. Like I love that you did the singing thing. People are gonna remember that and they’re going to that it increases I feel like all of that increases that like factor, which is so huge.

Tim Hyde  29:25

Yeah, it is. And I think that’s the key one. Yeah, I think like, how do I get someone to like me, because again, but you wouldn’t get something that you wouldn’t get married to someone you don’t like? Obviously, real issue and word of caution. Don’t get out there and put yourself out there for something that you’re not competent.

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:45

Don’t do that either.

Tim Hyde  29:47

Then you’ll end up in all sorts of legal hot water and you’ll definitely need…

Heather Pearce Campbell  29:52

It ends badly every time. Let’s just summarize it that way. Yeah, absolutely. Well, So when you’re because you’re on the inside of a lot of businesses, right? You’ve worked with people around the world you’ve seen, I’m sure you’ve seen people doing this poorly and doing it well. Talk to me a little bit about what you love most, because I’m sure you’re helping clients kind of fix this system, right, so that they can do more of everything that you’ve just described, right? Pursue that relationship, be more themselves, right? Develop that like factor. Talk to me about where you’re at now. And what you’re seeing inside of client businesses?

Tim Hyde  30:37

Well, I guess, it’s an interesting, you know, everyone’s coming from this home position, it doesn’t matter whether you’re, you know, an accountant or a plumber, or, you know, auto shop, or

Heather Pearce Campbell  30:49

Plethoric, you work with a super wide variety of clients.

Tim Hyde  30:53

I’ve worked with a sex worker once that was interesting, configuring the custom fields in her database. To remember clients preferences. I think we see all sorts, we see a bunch of stuff. And it depends, I guess, where you know, where we come, you know, where we’re coming from, that everyone will come up with a different marketing strategy actually connected with a finance party yesterday, and they’ve, you know, they’ve tried SEO and stuff. Previously, I think from a from a sales and marketing perspective. We jumped far too quickly into tactics. Yeah, without understanding what the strategy or the metrics to see where those tactics are working.

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:35

I was gonna assume that this is one of the things that you see as people trying a bunch of different tactics.

Tim Hyde  31:42

Yeah, I’ve got a client in Sydney at the moment who’s designing a new product they’ve got? And I won’t say what, what, suppose through just protect them a little bit, designing a new product, and they’re going to launch it on Instagram. And in our first meeting together, I say, well, who’s the customer that you’re trying to try to reach? Who’s this avatar that buys your product that you’re now designing for? And they’ve gone on? I don’t know. What do you mean?

Heather Pearce Campbell  32:06


Tim Hyde  32:08

If you I guess, if you don’t know, you’re going? Panic, panic, panic, right? Because I guess you understand that little bit more about marketing if we don’t understand our customer? And who is it that we want to reach? Because it’s not everybody, and even Facebook have made this mistake? You know, I saw a Facebook ad very early on, they say there are a billion people on Facebook, they could all be your customer. Okay, now, that’s horrible. Because not all of them are your customer. No. And it will end for Facebook. As much as people use Facebook. Not everyone on Facebook is Facebook’s customer. Okay, think about that. Because they don’t have a memory they have a platform that captures people, right? But ultimately, their cost Facebook’s customer are their advertising clients, right? The paying lens, depending what you’re just there to provide an audience for those paying people. And like crud, I created that last thing, right. So that’s probably the first thing. Understand who your customer is. And I think really get down to that level of, you know, what is that journey, and then I want to take people on, and then start putting in marketing tactics to make sure that those people deliberately and systematically move along their customer journey. Again, just like we talked about before, the kids don’t clean the bedroom the first time we appraise Okay, our customers don’t buy the first time we ask them, because most customers do not want to have 10 kids with you on your first date. So true relationships, I will run for the horse.

Heather Pearce Campbell  33:42

Yeah, that’s right. We’re out of here. Well, and I even for folks that know who their customer is, they even have some idea of what they want the journey to be. Where do you see them getting tripped up?

Tim Hyde  33:55

Look, it’s probably it’s sometimes it’s either not enough resources put into it, or not doing the next step. Yes. All right. I often talk in metaphors and sort of pictures. And immediately as I said that, you know, a picture of a rocket with not enough fuel to get to space came into my head. If you don’t put enough fuel in it, it never gets to his destination. Yes. A lot of marketing campaigns are like that we go our I just dabble into some, you know, Instagram ads, and I’ll put in $10 a day just to see. Alright, it’s not enough to actually make any sort of ripples in the pond at all over all the other ripples out you need to put a decent amount in to test it. And then the second thing is once I’ve sent someone somewhere, and these guys this sort of the financial in the mortgage broking group that I mentioned. They spend, you know, 10s of 1000s of dollars on SEO to drive people to their website. Fantastic, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell  34:56

And it happens. Yeah. 

Tim Hyde  34:58

And they’re gone. It’s not working. It’s not working. And you know a little bit more Dean says that the website takes 12 seconds to load.

Heather Pearce Campbell  35:04

Oh, gosh, okay.

Tim Hyde  35:08

You can drive all the traffic in the world to the website. But if it takes 12 seconds to load, they’re gonna go to the next site. And again, you look at your own behavior, how do you browse? If you’re doing a search for something, you’ll do a search for keywords, you’ll right click and open four or five tabs. And then you’ll look at them at a glance and go to this one catch me there’s this one catch. When is this one catch? Oh, yeah, here we go. Alright, so this rule that you know, there’s a common three-thirty rule, you have three seconds to earn the right for 30 seconds of someone’s time, right? That 30 seconds earns you the right for three minutes of their time, that three minutes of your time, earns the right for 30 minutes of their time, and so on. Okay. And that’s why you see magazines now at the newsstand as you walk out of the supermarket, you know, quite amazingly sensational headlines, six undiscovered six free secrets that will have your partner in orgasm forever. Oh, my God, see more on page, you know, page 30. I’m gonna go to page 30. And then, of course, that’s the three seconds that now gets 30 seconds of Article. That’s good. What do you get three minutes to read the rest of the magazine. Right. So that’s, you know, that’s what was playing with? I think this is one of the other things that and this is, I guess, from all the legal context. Is that almost never will you have a legal contract that covers all of the scenarios that you that you encounter them?

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:42

No, no. And it’s why when when somebody shows up and says, Oh, I want a bulletproof rights, the name bulletproof contract doesn’t exist. Right? Well, good luck with that. It’s not what I can create for you like nobody can. And if they’re telling you that they can, like run far away. That’s not how contracts work. Right? 

Tim Hyde  37:04

Yeah. No, I mean, contracts, I think, largely there for the vast majority of people who are law abiding citizens and go, this is our agreement, and I will abide by it. But the reality is, if someone doesn’t want to abide by the value of a contract only with money you’re prepared to throw at lawyers to defend it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  37:22

Yeah, that’s right. And it’s why relationships always come first, you have to know who you’re in relationship with, for that contract to even make sense or be anything that you can rely on. If it’s a crappier. It’s like in the JV space, right joint venture, if you’re doing a JV with somebody that you don’t trust, or you don’t like, it’s not gonna go well, it’s just it’s not and no contract is gonna save you from the problems in that scenario.

Tim Hyde  37:48

I think like everything, you know, legal contracts, marketing contracts, I mean, we all have, you know, you sign them with a customer before you start. But largely, it’s just around an expectation setting thing. I will do this, you will do that. We’ll be clear on what these things are. Yeah. And hopefully, later on, we won’t encounter scenarios that we haven’t talked about.

Heather Pearce Campbell  38:06

Right? It’s one part of a system, right? And that’s what I tell people legal is one part of a comprehensive system of communication, and touch points with your clients with various people who engage with your business. It’s part of the overall structure of support.

Tim Hyde  38:24

Yep. And probably the last lesson, I think this one’s a universal one, is that the thing you are doing in your business? Nobody has ever done before with the circumstances that you have. At no point in history today, have we got, you know, TikTok, and Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and TV advertising and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, with you and your set of skills? Right, and the team and the team of people that you have around you and the mission that you have, you know, to change your version of the world, whatever that looks like, that hasn’t existed ever before for anybody. Right? So, you know, own being the Pioneer, I think it’s okay. It’s okay to be a little bit scared of that and go, you know, what? You know, we’ve got similarities, absolutely. But nothing’s ever been the same for anybody that in your set of circumstances. And that’s okay. That’s scary and exciting. And that’s what we crave as entrepreneurs and the opportunity to create.

Heather Pearce Campbell  39:29

Yeah, it’s really interesting to think about that, because I think a lot of people, especially if they’re trained up in any manner, in a certain industry or world, they get really hesitant to kind of like, go outside the bounds of what they see other people doing, right. That can really keep people trapped and not applying their unique strengths to their business or to their messaging or to whatever it is that they’re, you know, it’s in front of them. So I love that. I love that final piece.

Tim Hyde  39:58

Yeah, and we use that just you know, all the time, you know, in my social media site, we had no real protection to it. Anybody at any point in time could start a website and copy us. And plenty of people did. And we actually had one person create a site. And somehow they interrogated that database and took out all the moderated comments, daily snapshots, and then follow up all the moderated comments I’ve got, okay, we’ve moderated them, because we don’t want to leave end up in lawyers offices every day, as opposed to every two weeks. But if you want to do that, go for it. Right. And but you know, we, we do these things. Because we get to discover, right? If you’re the Pioneer, you get the roadmap, you get to make it up, you get to sort of look at the horizon and navel gaze and go, where do we want to go with this? And that’s entirely your right as the, you know, the founder of your business. Anyone else who’s copying you? Well, they’re gonna fall in all the potholes that you were able to see coming or learn from them. You know, because you’re more agile, they’ll just fall into them and crash.

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:06

Yeah, copying doesn’t go well for people for so many.

Tim Hyde  41:10

Learn from others. Yeah, definitely learn from others, but don’t copy them out. Right? 

Heather Pearce Campbell  41:13

Yeah, absolutely. What piece of what you’re doing now, right? Because your own journey has evolved and taking new places. What part of of your work now do you love the most?

Tim Hyde  41:29

Probably, it’s a bit of a toss up two things. One, I love seeing the success we create for our clients. And I did have a client last year, and when we started, he described his business as a circus. Okay, it was absolute chaos was a circus, it was a revolving door of stuff. And we did a lot of work on internal marketing to his team as much as we did to his clients. And within six months, and then he turned around, and I’ve got a testimonial for it somewhere. I said, you know, I’ve fallen in love with my business again.

Heather Pearce Campbell  42:10

Oh, goosebumps, right?

Tim Hyde  42:13

And I say, you know, I’ve had a bunch like that, you know, another guy, and we’re doing some work with at the moment, you know, when he took over his father’s businesses is father run a property investment advisory for 40 years, and then passed away quite suddenly. And Jack had to come into the business and sort of take it over towards the end and was never, he’s never passionate that I didn’t want to do it. And, you know, he said, you know, in tears one day, he’s like, my dad would be so proud of the work that we’re doing that legacy. And to me, that’s really moving. And you know, being able to sort of really transform someone’s business, from a thing that gives them so much stress. And it does, let’s be honest, right? Running a business is a stressful enterprise. If you’ve ever been the night before, payrolling on where’s the money for that? It’s a stressful thing. But being able to transform that for people, where they, you know, they have this weight off, they reenergize they can see that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train is a really, it’s a really, really amazing thing.

Heather Pearce Campbell  43:24

Where do you the part and the role that you play? What do you wish people knew about your work that they don’t write some of what you do is highly technical, right? I think a lot of times people are trapped by not knowing things, right? And not knowing what it takes to accomplish certain things. Who the real expert is what really is going to be a fit for their particular business, et cetera. I feel like the list is long. What is there something that you wish people knew about kind of this particular piece of the puzzle that can surprise you at times that people don’t? 

Tim Hyde  44:00

Look, it’s not hard. I think people look at it and think, oh my god, this is overwhelming. Yes. As adults, we’ve done a really good job of simplifying our life down into know Grand Steps. Okay, so if I was to say to you right now, you know, honey, we need some milk. Can you do that? I’m just talking to the shops to get it. Right. Yeah, we’ve simplified about 1,000x actions into you know, just going to the shops to get milk. And, you know, that involves putting the remote control down, you know, kissing the kid goodbye and Daddy, where you’re going, you know and sort of thing right? And involves finding your car keys involves something as simply as opening the door involves about 1000 different mechanical motions in the body. Alright, when we’re sort of looking at systemizing and automating our business, our business isn’t intelligent. Like we aren’t hasn’t learned how to simply Fie, this stuff down into just do this thing. And that’s why so many businesses, you know, this transition to, from like, you know, having a job to owning a job to owning a business. This is this massive transformation that people want to go through about how we systemize our business, and it’s just a series of steps. It does this, then it does this, and it does this and does this. And we need to teach our business and our business systems, how to do that, that ultimately allows us to be freed up to be the CEO to be the founder to be the the entrepreneur and do the things that we went into business for in the first place.

Heather Pearce Campbell  45:37

So good, just a series of steps, right? Well, I mean, those examples, you’re right, when you think of it, like even the little day to day things, they do take 1000 little sub components to accomplish that one thing, right? We’ve got this everybody, you’ve got this? Just a series of steps. You heard it from Tim. Tim, out of respect for your time, where do you like for people to show up online and connect with you?

Tim Hyde  46:06

A couple of advisors, if you want to hit me up at, I love to jump on a call.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:06

Oh my gosh, and I love that name. By the way, when we first connected and you told me your website name, I was like, brilliant. When we’re clients, it feels like like winning the lottery, we didn’t weren’t clients. 

Tim Hyde  46:28

Oh, that’s the oxygen, right? So If you’re on the website, there’s also on our resources tab, you’ll find a scorecard that we’ve put together that sort of drills into your customer lifecycle. And I know it says marketing, but I want you to think of marketing is more than just the thing we do to attract people. Right? It’s the whole the whole gambit. Right, from attraction, right through to how do we create raving fans in our business? And that’s the marketing journey that we want to take. Yeah, so much bigger. What we’ve done is, is we’re asking you a bunch of questions in that to really look at where you should be focusing your attention. Alright, to plug the gaps in your customer journey. So if that’s a valuable resource for people jump on that, give it a go.

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:20

Oh, my gosh, I love it. I love.

Tim Hyde  47:22

I’ve got some recommendations on the back of it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  47:24

Yeah, it’s cool. Oh, it’s so interesting. I feel like these kinds of things like a scorecard are so eye opening because sometimes you cruise along and you think like, okay, you know, I’ve got it figured out like it was hard to get here, but I’m here. And, you know, I think I got some things figured out and then you go through an expert’s analysis of what you have or don’t have figured out like, I always find them. So I’m like, Oh, my gosh, yeah, I didn’t even think of that. Or that or I’m doing that thing. Totally wrong. Anyway…

Tim Hyde  47:55

But look, you know, and trust me, I don’t score 100% either.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:01

So work in progress, right? All of this is. Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, it sounds like an amazing resource. Folks. If you’re listening, hop over. We’re going to share Tim’s website The link to his scorecard as well as social media maybe do you like being on social media, Tim.

Tim Hyde  48:20

I am on social media, but you can find all the links on my Connect page. So…

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:23

Okay, perfect. So yeah, we’ll just connect to that on the show notes page, which are at legal, such a joy to have you here, Tim. Learn a little bit more about your story and hear from you directly. I know you’re an expert in this stuff. You’ve been doing it since the internet began, which I love. I grew up in the same time. What final takeaway or action step would you like to leave? People with sorry?

Tim Hyde  48:53

I like those. It’s good to be 26 run.

Heather Pearce Campbell  48:56

I totally, eternally 26 forever. The funny thing is, so when I was fresh out of law school, I used to get comments all the time about like, I looked 14 or something insane, right? I hated it then. But I joke like, yeah, carrying a little extra weight. Every once in a while when I get carded are like, Oh, you look too young to you know, to have that many years experience. I’m like, thank you. I love you. I’ll totally take it. Yes, it’s good to be 26 forever.

Tim Hyde  49:24

That’s right. You know, occasionally when you get I do remember years ago, I was going into a nightclub and there was you know, the photo of her must have ID to get into the nightclub, right. And of course, there was a 16 year old girl who really looked 16 She was getting cluttered. And then the other fighter was a dude. Clearly in his 50s Right. Bald… I think that thing that I would leave people with is that and this is what we see, I guess in major corporates, right you know what whether or not we’re going to become a major corporate or not, right, the CEO of your business is you. And we look at big companies 80% of their time is focused on sales and marketing. And everything else will follow.

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:17

You heard it here. 80% of your time on sales and marketing. Tim, thank you such a pleasure to have you here on the show. I look forward to doing it again.

Tim Hyde  50:28

Thanks. Heather. Great to catch up.

GGGB Outro  50:33

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit and Great Business® podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.