With Ari Galper, the world’s #1 authority on trust-based selling. Ari has been featured in CEO Magazine, Forbes, INC Magazine, SkyNews and the Australian Financial Review. Ari created a unique sales approach based on trust and integrity called UNLOCK THE GAME that allows business owners, consultants and sales professionals to convert potential clients into paid clients in one conversation.

Many entrepreneurs struggle with this part of their business, and focus on growing their networks, having more conversations (“numbers game”), but converting them into paying clients remains an elusive mystery. Ari helps his clients to stop the dreaded act of “chasing” and eliminate the painful experience of rejection. Ari’s big lesson you’ll learn today is that you lose the sale not because you haven’t demonstrated enough value, but because you haven’t created enough trust — a mindset shift that has changed thousands of people’s lives.

Join us for this conversation to hear Ari’s dramatic and painful experience that launched him into his own journey to UNLOCK THE GAME, to learn about some of the sales myths we need to “detox” from, and to learn more about the core principles behind unlocking the sales game which will help you to save time, create trust, and convert potential clients into paid clients.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • Why chasing “ghosts” is dragging your business down the wrong road to nowhere.
  • “What I’ve discovered is that trust building and relationship building can be mutually exclusive.”
  • Rejection and resistance can be removed.

Check out these highlights:

  • 8:43 Why Ari believes all business owners should really embrace “trust as currency”.
  • 12:11 When Ari learned it had become “socially acceptable to not tell the truth” and how that impacted his business journey moving forward.
  • 19:20 Why Ari believes sales is NOT a numbers game.
  • 21:24 Trust based languaging: What this is and why Ari uses it to take pressure out of the conversation.
  • 31:22 How to get to the truth of people so they get comfortable telling you everything up front.
  • 42:36 How to get your next conversation started off right.

How to get in touch with Ari:

On social media:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arigalper

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/arigalperfans

Twitter: https://twitter.com/arigalper

Find out more about Ari by visiting his website here

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro 0:00
Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™.

Ari Galper 0:02
That’s one trigger – it’s languaging of rejection. And you may have noticed, also the other aspect of this is the delivery. The way I said it, and I said, Where do you think we should go from here? I lowered my voice. I stayed calm and centered. Without momentum. Momentum creates pressure. Pressure creates the wall back on you. See, we’ve been taught by the gurus to be enthusiastic. We’re so excited – you love what you do. Can’t wait to tell me about it. You’re like, “I got the best coaching program in the world!” But they don’t know you – they are saying to themselves, “Oh no. Here it comes. Again, somebody’s trying to pitch…” And so again, a lot of the work I do is contrarian and so I tell my clients save your enthusiasm for after they’re a client. Pre-sale, they got to trust you first. So be aware of your delivery on your languaging.

GGGB Intro 1:01
The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast, where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:34
Al righty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I’m an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington working with entrepreneurs around the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™. I am super excited to bring a new friend to you today. Ari Gulper. A big welcome to Ari Gulper. Ari and I connected actually through our mastermind group. And once we had the chance to chat a little bit, and I checked out his work, I knew this is gonna be such an important conversation for us to have. I think that Ari probably does a lot of things that turn not only the sales conversation, but the sales world on its head because he’s very unconventional, and you’re just gonna love hearing from him today. So, Ari, welcome. I’m super excited to have you here with me how they’re looking forward to it. Absolutely, I have been to. So for those of you that don’t know Ari is the world’s number one authority on trust based selling, and has been featured in CEO magazine, Forbes, Inc, magazine, Sky News and the Australian Financial Review. Ari has created a unique and different sales approach based on trust and integrity, called unlock the game. designed so the dreaded act of chasing and the painful experience of rejection is eliminated forever, a feat never thought possible until now. It is specifically for business owners, consultants and sales professionals who struggle with converting potential clients into paid clients. Many focus on growing their networks having more conversations, ie the numbers game, but converting them into paying clients remains an elusive mystery. Ari’s profound discovery of shifting one’s mindset to a place of complete integrity based on new words and phrases grounded insincerity has earned him distinction as the world’s leading authority on how to build trust in the world of selling. He has completely redefined how to connect with people over the phone, in his corporate training sessions already demonstrates his mindset by calling new prospects in front of live audiences. I love that these are his big lesson you’ll learn today is that you lose the sale not because you haven’t demonstrated enough value, but because you haven’t created enough trust, a mindset shift that has changed 1000s of people’s lives already as a practitioner of Aikido, and is based in Sydney, Australia with his wife, Michelle, and their two sons and daughter, Toby, Nathan and Jamie. Ari, welcome. I’m super happy to have you here. So tell us. I’d like to go backwards in time a little bit. I know we could jump right into the trust based selling and all of that. But I’d like to hear about your roots and your background – where where did you start from?

Ari Galper 4:42
Sure. So I’m from San Diego. And I now live in Sydney, Australia. So you don’t the accent hasn’t changed better for 20 years actually. My wife on a dating site 20 years ago. She’s from Sydney I was working last time and this is a pre swiping. This is just the photo and so We connect, you know, via email, and then we started dating. She’s working in LA at the time. And then yeah, she’s like, once you come out to Sydney, visit my family in Australia. I was like, Wow, that’s pretty far, but I’ll give it a try. So it came out here we got married, engaged. And then yeah, lapkus brother from there, we had our whole story behind this, my my first son, he has Down syndrome, we are so blessed to have in our lives has been a hero superhero, for us are a book about him. We’ll talk about a lot of lessons from Toby. So it’s all kind of arrival from there and the story behind trust based selling, and that’s kind of where it’s all going.

Heather Pearce Campbell 5:34
No, I love that. Well, I saw that when I visited your website, and I love that you share so openly about it. I mean, I think one of the things I actually love about this podcast is being able to talk to people about both life and business, you know, I don’t feel like the two are really separated. And so it’s wonderful. And maybe we can hear a little bit more about that today. So how did you get into the sales world? Talk to me about where your love of sales comes from?

Ari Galper 6:01
Well, it’s interesting. My first job out of college, I worked with companies in Seattle actually thought about that Mercer Island, that whole area was my territory. And back then it was called the mini Yellow Pages, where you have a little booklet in your glove compartment, there was no internet back then. And you’d pull the thing out, you look for a pizza place, you know, driving around the town, like I’ll order a pizza from my car, that’s, you know, car phones. Exactly. And literally, I would add a territory. I like the Bellevue hills call over there. Someday, I would go door to door and just sort of say, you know, hey, we’re selling advertises a new booklet. And what I did was, I would the night before I go the normal Yellow Pages, I take a photo of the normal ad, and then reduce it different sizes, and put it on one sheet, like it was a small, medium and large size. And I walk in the summer a little book. And I’d say, you know, if I saw your ad, and I’d recommend that you give it a try for a month to see how it goes. And I roll out this little sheet of paper had like a small, medium and large size like a pizza. And I’m like, you know, you really should consider maybe trying it out and then show them their own ad. Pre size. They like pick a medium every time medium, medium, medium and like, all of a sudden become a salesperson full of products, you know. And we’ve got kind of my my first exciting, you know, success around selling.

Heather Pearce Campbell 7:26
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. I love I mean, first of all, yeah, pre internet, right? totally different world now. I mean, it has its benefits. And its challenges, right? The Internet does not solve all of our problems. And oh, it was so interesting. Like, I think your conversation is so relevant for anybody doing business these days. Because one, we all have to be on the internet. Right and to, I think people are so inundated with messaging with just gonna say it scams with things that do not feel genuine or that they think are going to be genuine, and then they sign up for a service. And it’s not right, I was connecting with a client actually on Sunday, and I don’t normally try to bother clients over the weekend. But he’s in the middle of a big move. And our time, our timeline was just tight. But, you know, he said to me, and I love getting the feedback, first of all, but he said to me, You know, I’m so grateful to be working with you. Because it’s, it’s really hard to tell who you can trust online. And I just thought, oh, doesn’t that just sum up so many people’s experience?

Ari Galper 8:43
That goes to the core we’ll be talking about today? That and I think the trust is a new currency. I think we lost it over time. And those business owners who really embrace this concept today will be the ones who rise above the noise.

Heather Pearce Campbell 8:56
Yeah, well, I love that. And I just think how many people out there are struggling with that exact issue. How do you establish trust? How do you do it in a way that feels authentic to yourself that feels genuine, but still gets the job done? Right? We don’t have a million hours in our day. This is the challenge, right? And so I think so many people understand the fact that, you know, building relationships matters. But that timeline, the sales timeline can really kill a small business, if you’re not doing it, right.

Ari Galper 9:31
Yeah, if you’re end up if you’re chasing what I call ghosts, people who show interest in they’ll call you back and your sales cycles are extended multiple steps and you’re just dragging your business down. This road isn’t going anywhere. It’s hard.

Heather Pearce Campbell 9:44
Yeah. So I’m curious because I know that like if somebody were to pop over and visit your website, there’s lots they could check out there, right. But talk to us about this profound discovery that you made right? about shifting one’s mindset to a place of complete integrity. That phrase really stood out to me.

Ari Galper 10:05                                                                                                                                                                        Yeah, yeah. Well, there was a story that happened to me about 20 years ago before I came out here. I was a sales manager software company. And I managed about 18 people underneath me at the time sales people. And we lost the first online website data collection tools called now called Google Analytics. I’m sure you’ve heard of that before. But we are the first one to launch that many years ago got bought out. But the point is that we’re great internet was taking off we’re the software to get the track your website, statistics and all that. And so the leads that came across my desk with a big opportunities that were passed to me. And this one opportunity came across my desk, you recognize a name, big company, lots of websites, I call the contact back, we had a great conversation, he agreed to a conference call and a demo. And if I close this one sale, it will double the revenue one transaction. That’s how big this deal was, was like a really big deal. So the whole team has like high five meal week already. Good luck. You know if that goes well, because if it goes well, we all get a bonus. If it comes, you know, it comes in so the daytime, they came Friday, four o’clock in the afternoon, I’ll never forget it. My CEOs with me in the big conference room, we had that closed door behind me it was like looking on Windows, and I can’t get away from it. In the middle of the table? Is the old school speakerphone. You know, black starships enterprise?

Heather Pearce Campbell 11:22                                                                                                                          Totally. I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Ari Galper 11:25
Yeah. So like, and so I call the number they gave me for the conference call the phone rings. The big w says vre. Hey, how’s it going? It’s a great. And he says to me, let us tell you who’s with us today in the room. And I was like, Oh, I didn’t realize to be someone else there. Next thing I know, I hear My name is john. I’m CEO. I was like, wow, see, have a whole company. It’s It’s crazy. My name is Mike. I’m head of it. Oh, this is even better. My name is Julia. I’m head of global marketing. Oh, this is like everybody on this call was basically a decision maker. I mean, this is a call, you know, as often as possible, they’re all there in one room one place now. It’s gonna happen. It’s gonna happen.

Heather Pearce Campbell 12:04
Right? Well, and how many times do people have a call where decision makers are not present? And that becomes one of the huge hurdles.

Ari Galper 12:11
Totally. So we started I introduced myself, we said hello. And I began to give him a live demo over the web. But their websites being collected in real time in advance for prototype and showing us them and clicking around and I certainly is noise of the phone call like, Wow, this is great. This is amazing. This is fantastic. It’s you’re asking me all kinds of questions. How does it work? How do we install it? And of course, I had all the answers. I was competent, technically, I’m answering the questions. I mean, there was so much chemistry on this phone call how there was like, a love fest on the phone. You know, I’m talking about the client. Like, they got the questions. You got the answers. You’re saying yourself, thank you, God, this is like the most beautiful conversation. There is no resistance at all. And my boss is like Ari Nice job. He’s like, give me the high five in the back. You know, he’s on his phone, the best car he wants to buy with a cell phone. And he’s like, ordering like wheels. He’s like, he’s so excited. And this call was amazing. I’m not even exaggerating. And and so I’m doing my thing. I was training sale and with the sales guru seminars, and the books on my shelves at home the CDs in my car from the university days, he’s drive around with this stuff. Oh, totally. Yeah, I was studying all this stuff. And so when the call comes to a close and my guys to be alright, this is great. We love it. Look, give us a call a couple of weeks, follow up with us. And we’ll move this thing forward. I’m like, Ah, thank you. This is like made my day made my year. So I said my goodbyes, and I reached for the phone hit the off button. The middle of the table is originally for the phone by complete accident. Now as the divine intervention, my thumb hit the mute button. Instead of the off button. They were right next to each other all designed Chi tightly in a small click happened. And they thought a hung up the phone. And that split second a voice inside me said Ari go to the dark side, be a fly on the wall, go where no one’s ever gone before in the world of sales. Listen, you got nothing to lose. And my thumb pullback for a couple seconds. They start talking amongst themselves like I left the call. Now what might use that trick question, what might you expect to hear to call like that? After the call we just have what would you assume would be happening next? Would you imagine you hear next?

Heather Pearce Campbell 14:27
Oh, I would think I mean if all those folks were calling in from different places, like they’d start to do it wind down like How was that? You know, given feedback to each other or whatever, right? you’d start to hear what they have, truthfully to say to one another.

Ari Galper 14:42
To hear things like Hey, is this good is moving forward? mazing limited, the feedback was great. But let me tell you what I heard word for word aloud. Forget it. That’s why we’re all here today. What I said was this, they said we’re not going to go with him. Keep using him for more information and make sure we shop someplace else cheaper. knife in heart twist, I was in a state of shock. I literally snapped out of it. I hit the off button. I love the wall in front of myself in front of me. I said to myself, What did I do wrong? I was competent. As professional, I answered, I did everything I was taught to do in selling. And the first big epiphany hit me and you can tell me if you could do this not this somewhere along the way. It has become socially acceptable not to tell the truth. The people who sell, right, yes. Okay. They say things like sounds good. Send me information. But wait, I’m definitely interested. No, send me a proposal without having any intention of what?

Heather Pearce Campbell 15:46

Ari Galper 15:48
Exactly. And then I asked myself, why were they afraid to tell me the truth. And I realize that moment was the big wake up call, that there is an invisible flow of pressure that flows pre sales underneath every sales chat you have with someone pre, pre-sale. And if you don’t remove the pressure from the process, in your sales process and events, with them on a phone call, they’ll always feel comfortable holding back from you, and not telling you the truth. That became a whole wake up breakthrough where I realized I’m going to shift my mindset here away from the end goal of the sale, and focus instead on getting to the truth, to create a what I call a mobile vulnerability where they feel comfortable trusting me enough to tell me where I stand. So I don’t have to worry about the next step. And they can worry not worry about me chasing them. That became the whole premise behind my 20 year revolution called unlock the sales game to really shift people’s thinking away from the sale. And the trust only.

Heather Pearce Campbell 16:49
Well, the thing that so I mean, what’s the word to choose that? So almost relieving to hear about that, right? Because you’re actually saying remove the pressure. And I think most people think they have to apply some kind of fashion. Like we’re taught so often that you have to add pressure. If you’ve ever sold from stage right? limiters, you add time constraints you add, you know, and some of those might be real constraints, maybe you’re selling people into a workshop. And there are literally a limited number of seats, whatever. But you get told, add the pressure add those limiters add that stuff in order to cause people to make a decision.

Ari Galper 17:30
Look, there’s overt pressure, and covert pressure, the oversized stuff that you do consciously is the unconscious stuff we’ll talk about today that don’t blow people away when they realize they don’t even realize they’re have been using their kind of old models that are still not applied the new world anymore. I don’t think the real shift for people.

Heather Pearce Campbell 17:50
I love that. So I am curious what happened? What did you do? Right? When you got off that phone call?

Ari Galper 17:58
Did you I was kind of in shock. And I just I What happened was I quit my job about a few months later. And I realized I’ve got to get out to the world and change the sales industry altogether. Because this is probably happening to everyone out there, not just me. You know, I guess like chasing them with phone calls. They never called me back. And this whole chasing game makes sales dysfunctional, inhumane, uncomfortable and the wrong. And I said I got to crack the code in this thing and help business owners and entrepreneurs just make it work without having to degrade their humanity in the process, you know, and we’ve been so conditioned the old way. And I’m like, I got to fix this problem. So I left and I started on my own back then.

Heather Pearce Campbell 18:40
Got it that well, that’s a big change. I mean, I think a lot of people probably wouldn’t have made that leap. Did you know that sales was your thing that that’s what you were going to be doing for?

Ari Galper 18:51
I knew that was my mission. Because I knew that someone had to tell the truth of what was going on here and provide a new way, a new way of thinking a new solution to crack the code. And now it’s obviously been systematize. And but that’s what I’ll be sharing today. Some ideas around that.

Heather Pearce Campbell 19:06
Yeah, I love that. Well, it sounds like because I know we were going to talk about some of the key sales myths that we need to detox from. Right. Yeah, that might be one of them removing pressure rather than adding pressure.

Ari Galper 19:20
Yeah. So look, we’ve been conditioned over the years, with certain things in the back of our minds holding us back and we’ll talk about some of those. Now. One key idea that sales is a numbers game. Remember that concept that the more calls you make, the more contacts you make, the more sales you’re supposed to make. Well, we discovered this economy now. It’s not about how many contacts you make anymore. It’s about how deep you go. On each conversation, how good you are trust building, not how good you are how many contacts you made, which is a total flip of, of the model. The other myth is the idea of the sale is lost at the end of the process. What we discovered is the sales don’t want your loss at the end anymore. It’s actually lost at the beginning. Hello. And I’ll prove it to you right now in a fun way. If someone calls your office tomorrow morning, and you pick up the phone, and you hear Hi, my name is I’m with we are re welcome your mind in about three seconds.

Heather Pearce Campbell 20:20
How do I get off the phone?

Ari Galper 20:21
It’s over at Hello, yeah. And I’m not suggesting that your folks, we’re all making outbound calls. But I will make the case today that most of them are losing their opportunities, not at the end of the process. And losing it at the beginning was a real flip and thinking. And the last one you kind of mentioned, the idea of pressure rejection is part of the process, you have to accept it. That can’t be old school sales mentors that, hey, you can’t get out. You can’t take a note. You can’t have a thick skin. You’re not made for success. You know, we discovered that rejection is triggered by certain things you say and do unconsciously the cause the other person’s resist you. And I’ll share what those are today that helped me to help a lot of people who don’t realize things like that.

Heather Pearce Campbell 21:05
I love that. Yes, I’m sure people are like, Huh, what is it that I’m doing? Exactly? Because, yeah, yeah, we don’t want to be doing those. So the trust based selling approach was, where were Where were the origins of that approach? Is it in the story you just shared?

Ari Galper 21:24
Yeah, it can’t, from my experience. Yeah. Why to and then dissecting? Why that occurred? Yeah. And then I realized responsibility wasn’t on them. It was on me to change my mindset, change my approach. And I’ll talk about a few minutes, which is what I call trust based languaging. So we invented our own unique languaging, that replaces sales scripts, it’s authentic, that lets you cut the noise immediately with people and have them feel comfortable with you telling you their truth. And that’s really eye opening for people when they hear that which I’ll talk about in our principals as well.

Heather Pearce Campbell 21:59
Well, I’d love to hear about that language piece. I think so often. And, you know, for anybody who’s been around for very long in the online world, you start to recognize certain techniques that people use in there, especially when you’re talking about Group Sales or presentations, or speaking from stage right, and a lot of NLP stuff. Talk to us. And, you know, truthfully, sometimes I feel a little conflicted about the use of that kind of approach. Because I think for folks that are just not aware of it being used as a tactic. It can work on them, right, and you can end up with people inside your business that actually don’t belong there are going to be trying to ask for refunds, right? So talk to us about the importance of language, but also how people do that wrong. Sure. And you’re right, that this has to feel authentic to you. You can’t feel artificial in the process. But the reason why is they can pick it up from a mile away, they know when you’re not being present with them, they know in your mind stick by the next they know when you’re in the game. So you got to break this thing open. And it starts with awesome core principles and all kinds of lands and language examples along with that. So you can see how it connects together. So people start using it right away.

Ari Galper 23:18
Call but the our core first principle is the idea of always be diffusing pressure, taking the pressure out of the conversation all the time, how you do that is using languaging. So here’s, here’s an example a live one of what people might relate to, let’s say on a real call with somebody at first conversation that could be a lead to an opportunity to first call and they look like a good opportunity for you to listen to their qualified call comes to an end good chemistry, usually the end of a call like that we say things like what, how about we move things forward? session or have a cup of coffees and we’re conditioned, we set an opportunity to move things which direction? What’s the next step? Exactly? What happens if you move things forward? And they aren’t ready yet? What do you break with them? Right? At the beginning the process? Yeah,

Heather Pearce Campbell 24:09
Their trust.

Ari Galper 24:10
So our approach, same scenario, calls going well, good chemistry call comes through and close, rather than saying, Hey, how about we move forward? What we say instead is this, we say? Where do you think we should go from here? And I’ll say it again? Where do you think we should go from here?

Heather Pearce Campbell 24:38
I love that. How does that change the dynamic of the moment? Well, it puts them in the driver’s seat there. They’re not trying to respond to some pressure tactic about what comes next. And it actually gives them a chance to think about what do they want?

Ari Galper 24:55
Yes, they feel in control and interesting when you say to somebody, where do you We think we should go from here. They’re usually in a state of shock. Or like, whoa, whoa, they can’t believe somebody business isn’t trying to move them down a process that shocking for them. And then what happens? The guard comes down. And they say things like, Oh, I, I’ve got one more question. Wait, what? What about this? You know, it comes out all of a sudden. But truth. Yeah, right. And the truth is the goal, not the sale anymore. Because if you know where you stand the whole time, you don’t chase people who don’t call you back anymore. It’s a total revamp of your whole business by looking at things differently around that concept. So that’s one trigger is languaging of rejection. And you may have noticed, also, the other aspect of this is the delivery. The way I said it, and I said, Where do you think we should go from here? I lowered my voice. I said, calm and centered. Without momentum. Momentum creates pressure. Pressure creates the wall back on you see, we’ve been top of the gurus to be enthusiastic. We’re so excited you love what you do can’t win. Come on about it. You’re like, I got the best coaching program in the world. But they don’t know you this in yourself the same themself. Oh, God. Here it comes. Again, somebody’s trying to pitch. And so again, a lot of words contrarians, but Tomek slides, save your enthusiasm for after they’re a client.

Heather Pearce Campbell 26:37
I love that!

Ari Galper 26:38
pre sale. They got to trust you first. So be aware of your delivery on your language.

Heather Pearce Campbell 26:47
Let’s pause to hear from today’s sponsor. Today’s episode sponsor is both Pearce law PLLC, home to my legal practice here in Seattle, Washington, as well as The Legal Website Warrior® , an online business and brand dedicated to supporting the legal needs of information entrepreneurs. These include consultants, coaches, online experts, and educators, speakers, authors, industry leaders, influencers, transformational leaders, community builders, podcasters. People in this space goes by a variety of titles. But essentially, their businesses look alike. They are building businesses based around a body of work and information that they have created. That gets delivered in a variety of ways, including generally through an online base, the home base in the online space. Thus, my branding, the legal website, warrior, I’m dedicated first and foremost to protecting online brands, helping them stay safe, helping them navigate the legal rules that exist and apply to the online world, as well as take care of and protect the offline portion of their businesses as well. There’s so much that these entrepreneurs do in the offline work and their business as well. And there regardless of what you call yourself, regardless of what your business is about, you do not get to the position of scaling and growing and creating the influence that you want in the world and becoming an industry leader without essential legal support. So if you are in the space of information entrepreneurs that I serve, I would invite you to reach out and connect with me, you are also welcome to check out a free resource that I have built you can find it at legal website warrior comm forward slash legal basics boot camp, it is my free legal basics boot camp that I have prepared just for you so that you have the map what I find and let’s be clear that the traditional legal model tremendously underserved a certain portion of the small business community. And that is why I’ve set about to create a set of resources, documentation, education, etc. that supports people in this space. My legal basics boot camp is going to walk you through a framework that I developed that helps you understand the roadmap for your legal needs. This way you can stop cherry picking your needs in the dark without the map and start making decisions that have legal ramifications for your business. From the standpoint of being empowered from the standpoint of understanding what your legal priorities are and being able to choose those intentionally and knowing what they’re going to do for you and your business. So connect with me at legalwebsitewarrior.com/legalbasicsbootcamp where you can get my free resource. Again, congrats on your journey. I’m honored to have intersected your path and be a small part of it through hosting this podcast. And if I can support you in any way, reach out.

Heather Pearce Campbell 30:16                                                                                                                                              Okay, back to today’s amazing guest. Well, and it’s you know, it’s interesting because I think some people, myself included, like, just talk more quickly than others at times, right? If I get super excited about something, man, it’s like a freight train. You know, I could talk all day on things that I love.

Ari Galper 30:37
And we’re not saying change who you are, we’re saying be aware of how you’re being perceived. Right? Your presale process by somebody doesn’t know you yet. What are they thinking when they’re hearing sort of all the stuff that may not be about them, but maybe about you and sort of a conscious awareness because we have a tendency to backfill our own needs to tell people things about ourselves to make us feel like we’re complete, the fewer credible to feel like we’re convincing them. And a lot of this is about having a mindset of being present, and being in their world, not our own world.

Heather Pearce Campbell 31:10
I love that. So always be diffusing pressure, right? Be mindful of your tone of voice momentum. What other things do you share about that conversation?

Ari Galper 31:22
The other core concept here is the idea of what I call getting to the truth of people. And what does that mean? What that means having your potential prospects early on your process, feel comfortable telling you everything upfront? Let me example this, recently had someone call my office a call got through my team got to me and the phone rang, I unscheduled. I picked it up. And I heard Mr. gulper. I said, Yes. My name is john Johnson change the names. I’m with XYZ company. They’re a big company global. And he says, I’m with XYZ company, we’re looking to bring someone in to change our sales culture, our sales team performance, we’re looking at you and two other people. We’d like to know first of all, Mr. gulper, why should go with you? Why you the best, and give me your best sales pitch. He says this to me when people say he’s in the game. He expects me to start doing what selling. Yeah, cuz that’s the game he he’s grown up with. Yeah. So I took a deep breath of their big company back to my mindset. Lord, my voice got relaxed. And I said this to him. I said, Well, isn’t that interesting? Isn’t it probably is more and I pause, that I said over here, our company, where we’re a similar process to you where we ask them questions, gather information, to see if we’re a good fit. And if we’re a good fit, we’d have to go from there. And I said to him, would you be open to that? That’s all I said to him. Next thing I hear on the phone, nothing. dead silence. I’m like, Is he still there? That holds his breath across the phone. Like he lowers his shoulders, he kind of becomes human again. he lowers his voice, and he says to me, okay, what kind of questions you have for me? Hmm. Next thing I know, in five minutes, I discover one is not a decision maker. Two, he has no budget. And three, he’s just curious as to what I do. And it’s triggered within that cause like that, you know, it’s the drug is called. It’s called hopium you know, the hope Yeah, we get that phone call. Yeah, baby, I got the call. You’re like so excited you’re on this I and then you you call them back and you follow up and you get their voicemail like, Oh, he’s not there. And then you go to your computer and you open email up and you’re right. Hi, I’m writing you to what to follow up on our ama asked our listeners right now and viewers to use to remove one key phrase forever, no vocabulary as of saying never use it again. After recording and this might hurt just a bit if you’ve been in sales for a long time, but I’m gonna ask everyone to never again, use the phrase follow up ever again the careers after today.

Heather Pearce Campbell 34:36

Ari Galper 34:37
That was the only industry in the world that uses word follow up. sales people. Hi, I’m calling to follow up on our last meeting with a few more classic ones. I don’t know if you know this one’s like a comment, check in, touch base, you know, like 1980s languages we’re still using in this day now that when you tell someone that they associate Are you with that stereotype that everybody hates? So let me give you the language replace that word with, okay? What you say instead is this, you say I’m giving you a call to see if you have any feedback on our previous conversation, any feedback on our last meeting, any feedback on the contract, any feedback going where away from the sale, follow ups going towards the sale? Your goal is to reverse the process. Remove the pressure, because that was what creates trust with people.

Heather Pearce Campbell 35:33
I love that. Yeah, I’m still thinking about a we hope I am and even back at the beginning, right, getting to the idea of the truth. I think so many people have given up on thinking they can have that. Yes,

Ari Galper 35:50
Yes, you know what’s happened because of that, they’ve gotten less bold, less assertive, and they become more passive, and is flow along with the customer wants. But the way I view it is this, it needs to be a doctor patient relationship. There the patient, the doctor, by patient says my shoulder hurts. Doctor says, Let me take a look. Is it over here? Oh, yeah, oh, man, we need to do next right here really identify an MRI and it’s going on there. But I’ll tell you what they’re describing to you to fix it to what we do now is, the minute a potential client says was, here’s what I’m looking for. We say great, I can help you with that. We don’t probe and when I say go under the iceberg with people to unpack their issues, to get to the truth. And our whole model, I’m working on a new book I mentioned to you next year called the one call sale. Our whole model is how to compress your sales cycle into one conversation with somebody. The truth comes out on one call, and you know, there’s going to be yes or no, versus chasing people who just never call you back.

Heather Pearce Campbell 36:59
Right? Well, and what do you have to say to people that are sitting here listening and going, you can’t do that in a call one call? Right? Because I think that’s the first thing is like, no, it takes more time than that.

Ari Galper 37:13
The reason why they’re thinking that is because they’re still wedded to belief system. And their job is to build a relationship with someone pre sale, I’m gonna drop a bomb right now. Okay? What I’ve discovered is that relationship building, and trust building can be mutually exclusive. What I tell my clients is build a relationship with someone after the sale, not before the sale, before the sale, what you do is you build trust with them, by going deep down there around their issues where they feel the sense of residents, they say to themselves, Wow, she just gets me She just understands me. That’s what real trust is about. See what happens is, we’re so used to Hey, how’s it going? Nice to meet you. Fantastic. How’s it going over? See, we laid in thick in the beginnings we were taught to believe they have to like us and know us to buy from us, right? truth is they don’t want to you want to become your friend. What they want to do is solve their problem. I mean, think about it. They got a problem. We got a solution. Right line of sight. What do we do in between? We fumble the ball? Oh, hi, we, we crossed social norms, and business norms. Now it gets all messy.

Heather Pearce Campbell 38:30
Well, and what you’re saying right now is so true, actually, even in the context of that example, like doctor patient relationship, right? So when I was pregnant with my son, I was a week overdue. I’d had an ultrasound It was a Friday morning, I had gone in for an ultrasound just to see was baby Okay, all of that good stuff. And the radiologist to read the ultrasound came in and told me I was having a mega baby. She was like, you know, this could be like an 11 or 12 pound baby and I said what my doctor has been telling me like, this is an eight pound baby, right? So it kind of blew my mind. I was waiting all day on Friday to hear from my my gynecologist to follow up on that and he didn’t get back to me. So here I was left. Heading into a weekend a week overdue. I couldn’t breathe. I was having anxiety and all these panic attacks because I literally couldn’t breathe and he wasn’t dropping down. This point about you don’t want a friend you want somebody to solve your problem, right? You don’t necessarily even need the relationship. You want somebody to solve a problem. This was the place I was in. I didn’t care who there was in the office. And what I did is we called them it was like four o’clock on Friday and I said look, this baby’s not dropping. I just got told that you know it’s a mega baby. I need somebody to that actually you know is familiar with My file to look at this and call me back. And, you know, I applied some pressure will say that I’m driving to your office right now. And I’m not leaving until somebody does that, because I’m not going into a weekend not knowing what’s up with this baby. So I got there at like 435 o’clock, and my doctor wasn’t available, but another doctor was, and his nurse came out and said, Dr. loudermilk, has reviewed your file reviewed your images from this morning, and he’d like you to come in tomorrow morning. He is the on call emergency doctor, and he’s going to deliver your baby via c section. Right? Problem solved. That is all I needed to know. Because I was getting all this wrong information. And somebody told me to schedule a C section, it’s going to be 10 days out. I’m like, awesome. So I’m seven, eight days overdue. And I have to wait 10 more days to have this baby that’s not driving. Like this is just not gonna work.

Ari Galper 40:57
Right? You were looking at you want a truth teller? someone to help you. That’s what you’re looking for.

Heather Pearce Campbell 41:02
And he did that. He looked at the images and he said, this baby needs to come out. And I will do it tomorrow morning. And he became my favorite person on earth in that moment. And for years after because he solved that problem.

Ari Galper 41:16
Yeah, I’m working on a bumper sticker right now. It’s got four words on it. I was gonna say, doctors don’t do coffee. Right?

Heather Pearce Campbell 41:25

Ari Galper 41:26
And that’s the mindset, you have to have pre sale going forward, you have to stop trying to build licious people and focus on their deepest problems. That’s all there. Once you know what we also do when we mess up. We also do a lot of free consulting, free education, we give away all this content. And I’m like, stop is another bomb coming right now. I say stop giving value to people pre sale. Instead, give them clarity around their problems. See the clarity you got doctor saying? We’ll do it tomorrow didn’t solve a problem baby still in there. But it gave you the relief and the clarity the know that he’s the one to solve it. It’s the same metaphor.

Heather Pearce Campbell 42:06
Yeah, yes. And your clients sound like my clients, I lecture them as well around like stop doing that stop giving away your services for free. It’s not helping you. How, what’s your coaching for people on how to start a conversation the right way, so that you are able to get to the truth, right? Because we’re talking about what’s happening at the end? How do you start a conversation the right way so that you’re not headed down the wrong path?

Ari Galper 42:36
Beautiful question. So let’s assume you have a scheduled call with somebody Okay, the their qualify as a first call from LinkedIn or whatever. They want a call with them. And you say hello, you don’t normally this heard this sort of preamble? Hey, nice to meet you or to hear from you. How’s it going? Well, today’s call is all about this. If we’re working. There’s all this stuff. Yeah, well, we got to take all that out. So when you say hello, say Hello, nice to meet you, then you say this. If it’s okay with you always ask permission. Can we start with you showing me a little bit about your situation, a bit about your story about your business challenges? And we’ll go from there. How’s that sound? So you put the ball in their court right away, right? It Hello, hmm. And they start to open up to you. As they start opening up to you, you start listening carefully for their problems. So someone says to you, oh, I need help with growing my business or whatever like that, too. Well, normally, we hear someone tell us a problem that we can solve. Our instinct goes, Oh, perfect. I can help them solve the problem. Wait, let me tell you what, I’ve got case studies. I can see. Instead you got to say this. And here’s the magic phrase. When they say their problem, you say? Can you tell me a little bit more about that. And that now goes to a free space within that open up more. And you say well, how has that been an issue for well? What’s the impact your business by not solving it for the last six months? How much have you lost? Because what would you say? See I’m taking them to a place they on their own don’t go to see most business owners want to focus how much on their making, and how much they’re losing. That’s painful place to go. It’s gotta be like a therapist patient relationship, right? If the patient doesn’t own the problem. They’re the worst patients.

Heather Pearce Campbell 44:18
Oh, it just stays in the closet. Right?

Ari Galper 44:20
Correct. And they got to drag him through to the end. So this model is about what I call going down the iceberg with people. Because they’ll give you bread crumbs, the top of the iceberg just enough to chew on you. Let’s go Yeah, baby. But really, this is not a happy call. This is a diagnostic conversation. This is a really let’s unpack understand the totality of your issues and the gravity of it. And here’s the finished question you want to ask? At the bottom of the iceberg. You want to ask this question. And here’s the killer one. Is this a priority for you to solve once and for all? Or is it something you have to live with for a while and let it be? I’m okay. The way the sale is made it last read through in that moment. Because now they own it. And the next thing I say to you is, here it comes. Wait for it. How can you help me? So you’re not allowed to describe your solutions? until after they say to you, how do you work? or How can you help me? Because then they own the problem. And they’re committed to solving it. See, what we do is we prematurely start to get excited, talk about solutions, get,

Heather Pearce Campbell 45:39
start to solve,

Ari Galper 45:40
problem, educate, give insights, as we think they’re more we demonstrate our capability them of our solution, the more they’ll get to like us and buy from us, which is the reverse of what’s going to happen. know, what’s happened to you educate them on that initial process with them. It was gonna happen, they’re gonna say, let me think about that. I need to process that. Let me let me have my white, let me see that I had a process I’ll do gave them, which is new information. Yeah, here’s the funny thing about this. They don’t care about how you solve the problem. All they care about is that you’re the one to solve it. They don’t care about your coaching programs, and your one on one calls and your login access in your group masterminds. How you do it is your thing. All they want to You’re the one to choose as though you’ll take care of them.

Heather Pearce Campbell 46:35
What’s your saying? And I think this you know, you’re right, this definitely goes against instincts. Right? You’re saying, Don’t demonstrate, don’t explain. Don’t literally don’t do anything. Except ask these questions that take them deeper into their own story.

Ari Galper 46:55
Go deep in their world and stay there. Don’t come out until making me laugh until they say to you. How can you help me their most vulnerable than and then the most willing to take help and pay you for your service? If you don’t wait to that moment comes? You will end up being stuck in the chasing game people weren’t ready yet.

Heather Pearce Campbell 47:24
So is it true that just by asking these questions, because I think if I’m playing devil’s advocate, right, what a lot of people could be thinking right now is like, Well, how do they know? I’m the expert? How do they know? I have the skills to solve this. Like if I don’t explain if I don’t show them how will they have the confidence in me

Ari Galper 47:46
Their own subconscious sight, I’m not worthy. And I need to prove my worth to someone else that’s backfilling our own emotional needs they don’t care about, you have to demonstrate your credibility, your demonstration of your credibility and competence is by your ability to connect with people at their level, on their terms and their world not about your credibility. I’m sure you’re gonna have a website and LinkedIn fine, but on the actual call itself, do not talk about yourself.

Heather Pearce Campbell 48:18
I love this so much. Stop it. Right. You Bob Newhart, stop it. Just stop it. Stop it. So, I mean, there’s just I think a lot of people who could be listening are just going Oh, Oh, right.

Ari Galper 48:38
I’m not sending a change who you are or be cold and diagnostic, you can still have bedside manner like a doctor, you can still be warm and empathetic, you can still care about people what this process does, it sends one message you know the messages I care about you which is missing in the world of selling.

Heather Pearce Campbell 49:06
Talk to me a little bit because I know that there are folks out there that will not say exactly this, but we’ll say go deep push on the pain right I’m sure you’ve heard this push the pain points. What do you say to people who have a real aversion doing that

Ari Galper 49:22
So this this is not about pushing the pain points at all? And yeah, there is a bit of subtle differences when I’m teaching other people teaching is about manipulation. This is not this is not about getting to the guests. This is getting to the truth because maybe they’re not fit with you in the first place. You have to walk into the call with the mindset of they may not. be a fit. Yeah, just push them but thing is, is I’m gonna use this technique to get the yes is our mindset is they may not be a fit. I don’t know if they are until I unpack and help them amplify and see the truth of their own problem. All I’m doing is revealing to them their own issues with a mirror. I’m not trying to push buttons, I’m trying to help them understand the gravity of their own issue. Because they themselves don’t see it. Customers only see their world in 180 degrees. We see things 360. Right. Dr. patient, your job is to help your patients and your clients and your prospects see their own bigger picture.

Heather Pearce Campbell 50:33
Well, what I love is you’ve shared a bit about the How do you do it? How do you get there, but it really is about where you start from that is the special sauce is about really starting from a place of genuine curiosity. We won’t know until we get there. This is not about getting to a yes. It’s about just figuring out what does this person need, helping them see it and then going from there.

Ari Galper 51:01
This is a mindset shift of letting go of the end goal, the sale which is tough for certain people who are what are the old way and detoxing from that unhooking from that and being present 100% in their world, like you will with a child or hopefully at home with someone you love when you’re present with them. You listening, see what happens. We go to work, we put what I call sales armor on, we change our whole approach, we get ready for bullets coming our ways we get kind of like, we get all teed up for the call. Hi, and how am I calling clients last week played a recording from one of his sales calls and one of his consultations and I was talking to him. I said go and play the recording. Sure. And his whole voice changed on a call. I’m like What are you doing? You realize you’re like you’re either amping yourself up, like hey, realized I said, you’re getting ready for battles. What you’re doing. You’re putting your energy up to prepare for rejection, in case it comes? Well, we have to do is work with you to eliminate rejection ever happening.

Heather Pearce Campbell 52:02
Yeah. Well, and it’s, you know, I love that too. Because it’s, if you’re if you take away the goal of always getting to the Yes, it eliminates I think so much of that pain associated with that rejection point. Right. And I mean, I just think sales is so brutal for so many people out there running around and just doing it wrong.

Ari Galper 52:26
Because resistance and rejection can be removed. If the beginning of the process you do it, right. Yeah. See, we accept pushback. And chasing is normal. We assume as part of the game of selling it’s the way it goes. Not in our world. We never trigger it.

Heather Pearce Campbell 52:45
Yeah. Oh, I love that. Oh my gosh, already. This has been so good. Holy cow. Here we are almost at the top of the hour. I love I love the the points you’ve made about how to do it the right way. I love the the really, you know, true highlight on the mindset that it takes to set yourself up to do it the right way. Yes, definitely. For folks that are still listening. I know. Do you have a free gift for listeners today? I think,

Ari Galper 53:15
There’s an overview intro course you can take for free, just go to my website, unlock the game calm. It’s right there. You can’t miss it. And then, which has to be on LinkedIn, just say hello. If you got value out of this, I’d love to hear from you. But that’s the place to go to really start to enter our world and see if it’s fit for you or not.

Heather Pearce Campbell 53:30
So good. Well, in your I believe your trainings, your content is really for consultants, coaches, right, a whole wide swath of people. I imagine service professionals, talk to me about who can benefit.

Ari Galper 53:43
It’s really for people in a low volume, high price point quadrant, where it’s high trust. Yeah, long term clients, high price point, low volume, you know, they don’t need 20 clients tomorrow, they’ve had five and a quarter they’d be happy or five in a month. They don’t need volume. Because the reason the issue people struggle with is converting the leads into sales. They have lots of leads coming in less meetings, but they don’t convert them. So yeah, you get improved that by 1020 30%. In my book I’m writing right now. And I write this in there. I said, My expectation of you the reader is if your prospect on the phone is qualified, meaning they can afford your fee and they have your problem. You should be having 100% success rate on every single call. If you’re not, you’ve messed it up. Yeah, we’re still there. Right. Your process, fumbled the ball. You’re the one who’s got to change that that?

Heather Pearce Campbell 54:42
Yes, yes. Well, and taking ownership of that, I think is just so freeing, realizing like it’s in us to do this conversation the right way. And we can and it doesn’t have to be this hard, scripted thing, right. It doesn’t have to be this convoluted. process that we force ourselves through.

Ari Galper 55:02
Correct success is based on you taking responsibility for making changes for yourself. Yeah, absolutely.

Heather Pearce Campbell 55:09
Love that. So if you’re still listening, be sure to hop over, we’re going to share our website, including the gift was free introductory course, and more including where you can connect with him on social media. I personally am a huge fan of LinkedIn. So Ari and I already connected there. Check that out at legal website where your comm forward slash podcast are you what final either takeaways or action steps do you have for folks that are still listening? Look, I

Ari Galper 55:35
I mean, I would just say one last thing. And I know it sounds kind of crazy, but stop selling. Create trust with people. Because it’s a new skill you have to learn again, I’m sorry, you have to learn it. And I’ll tell you if you can build trust with people that Hello. Game over. Yeah, you can just enjoy your day. Not play the numbers game and people just onboarding with you without resistance. It’s hard to imagine that concept to imagine Wow, what everyday people just joining me. You can get there if you just recognize what you’re doing the old way.

Heather Pearce Campbell 56:07
Hmm. I love that well, and if you are still listening, you already know that you’re going to jump over and check out our his work because that just sounds like I just breathe a big sigh of relief for people that are going to discover this new way of being in their business and get the help that they’ve needed. So, Ari, thank you. It’s such a joy to connect with you today and hear all your wisdom in this particular niche. We all need it. Thank you so much. Yeah. Well, we’ll talk to you soon. Okay.

GGGB Outro 56:37
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us, too. Keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.