Marketing with Heart, Not Hype

With Cindy Schulson, Founder of Marketing From Within. Cindy shows coaches and consultants how to stand out in this noisy online world by marketing with heart vs. hype. Cindy brings a decade of marketing experience working for such companies as Coca-Cola and Visa, combined with a decade of online marketing to create a paradigm shift in how marketing can be done with integrity and heart.

Join us for this fabulous conversation about marketing in a way that aligns with your values and helps you set yourself apart from the crowd. We discuss strategy vs. tactics, creating your core message, and the role of templates in marketing. We also discuss the powerful role of emotions in consumer’s buying choices, and how to insert heart into your marketing. There are so many more gems that we cover that are essential to understanding how to do marketing the right way and in a way that you enjoy! Marketing is a journey.

Join us for this conversation if you are a coach, consultant, online educator, speaker, author, or online expert or educator.

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Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • “You can’t just take somebody’s system and just copy and paste it, you have to really figure out how to tailor it to you or it’s not going to work. It’s not authentic. It’s not unique to you like, not adapted, aligned to you and your business.”
  • “Ultimately, marketing only works when it’s tailored to you.”

Check out these highlights:

3:00 How Cindy got started on her journey of entrepreneurship, after leaving her high paying corporate job.

7:18 Why you need to get strategy before tactics.

12:28 Creating your core message.

26:00 Why your messaging needs to be clear and focused to stand out online.

31:00 “You could teach people all day long, but true transformation doesn’t happen with just information. It happens with support.”

38:00 The power of a niche.

43:00 Cindy’s favorite motto in business- “Build on success”.

How to get in touch with Cindy:

On social media:



Get Cindy’s free Brand Message Template here and a consultation here.

Cindy Schulson is the Founder of Marketing from Within. She shows coaches and consultants how to stand out in this noisy online world by Marketing with Heart vs. Hype.

Cindy brings a decade of marketing experience working for such companies as Coca-Cola and Visa, combined with a decade of online marketing to create a paradigm shift in how marketing can be done with integrity and heart.

Learn more about Cindy here.

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below. 

GGGB Intro 0:00
Coming up today on Guts, Grit and Great Business.

Cindy Schulson 0:05
You can’t just take somebody’s system and just copy and paste it, you have to really figure out how to tailor it to you or it’s not going to work. It’s not authentic, it’s not unique to you like it’s not adapted, aligned to you and your business. So like, I love that people have programs and steps and everything for people to follow. I do too. But there has to be enough coaching and support in there to help people really figure out how to make it work for them. So you know, yes, follow systems follow leaders that inspire you. But don’t forget to put you in there.

GGGB Intro 0:49
The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit and great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit and Great Business podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell 1:21
All righty, you welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I am an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit, and Great Business. So I have my friend Cindy Schulson here today and to do that the right way to say your last name I should have asked you before we started okay. So I’ve got Cindy Schuslon with me here, we met through a mastermind and I’m so excited for you to hear about Cindy’s work. Cindy is the founder of Marketing From Within, she shows coaches and consultants how to stand out in this noisy online world by marketing with heart versus hype. Cindy brings a decade of marketing experience working for such companies as Coca Cola and VSA combined with a decade of online marketing to create a paradigm shift in how marketing can be done with integrity and heart. And I love this. So Cindy believes that marketing with heart honors your value, vision, and voice, so you can grow your business from a place of strength, confidence, and passion. So, Cindy, you and I have had the chance to connect I know in our little mastermind Get to know your group. But I know that you’ve been really busy during COVID. So that means you do really great work in the world. I’d love for people that don’t know you and that are listening. Tell us a little bit about how you got started on this path how you got into the marketing world.

Cindy Schulson 2:48
Sure. After I graduated from MBA school, I ended up somehow getting a job in strategic communications consulting, working for like a two person company. And I loved it, it just completely loved it. And that started a 10-year career in strategic communications, working for small consulting companies, big consulting companies, you know, big companies, like we talked about. And then in my late 30s, I had my first child. And I just decided, Okay, I’m, I’m not going back to corporate. And it was actually a tough decision either because at the time, I was making double what my husband was, and so I quit my job. And we just decided to live simply, which is fine, because neither of us is like, materialistic or anything like that. So I quit my job, and just really focused on kids for a few years there. And then, you know, the little Type A Gremlins, calling me and I started exploring coaching, and internet marketing at the same time. And that was a blessing and a curse, because I was like doing every kind of marketing under the sun, everything you could think of and I spent a year and a half, almost two years doing that, getting absolutely nowhere. And I realized that despite my background, and you know, marketing and communications, I had absolutely no marketing strategy. I didn’t know who I was talking to. I didn’t know what my message was.I mean, all the basic things people struggle with which you would think I would have known better, right. And the other thing I realized to Heather’s that like, I think a lot of people do this. It was like I started my business and me in my head. I was saying Oh, well, I don’t want to do that stuff anymore. But what I realized the key is, is how can you leverage your strengths and your experiences, and apply them in a way that you’re passionate about? Yes. And so that’s what led me on the path I am now.

Heather Pearce Campbell 5:17
Wow. So yeah, you made a couple of big leaps in there. I mean, the, the not going back to a great paying job, right, while you’ve got kids. I mean, you sound like you had a hunch, I mean, you really followed your heart and taking that leap. And then like most of us, starting your own business, you learn some things along the way.

Cindy Schulson 5:38
Yeah, but you know, I’m so grateful. Because I remember, it was like, I remember just feeling like, I don’t care how many widgets you sell, I just didn’t care. I wanted to do something that I was passionate about that was meaningful. And that’s this whole idea of marketing with heart, it’s like, it’s, this got two dimensions to it. Like, one, it’s about honoring the people, you’re here to help and marketing in a way that feels good for you, and for them. But it’s also about honoring yourself. And I always say like, if I was just gonna, like, say what people wanted to hear, and these last days in corporate, right, so it’s really about marketing in a way that feels really aligned with who you are. And what you have to say,

Heather Pearce Campbell 6:25
Yes, well, and I, you know, the path of the entrepreneur and like even hearing how much heart you have for your own work, I feel like, this is what I love about entrepreneurship, right is that connection to passion, that connection to heart, people really wanting to do something unique, something that is there’s something that allows them to use their skills and their talents. And so I think the, you know, you’re in the perfect spot, in my opinion, for people who really can utilize not only the message that you know, that you bring through your work, but also learning how to apply it to themselves and write the message from their own hearts. Because I think, you know, marketing is one of those things that everybody in this space has to figure out.

Cindy Schulson 7:18
Absolutely. And we and we make it way too complicated. You know, and I was just talking yesterday with this guy, he was like, Okay, well, I need a funnel, and you need this, I need that. And it’s like, he doesn’t even have clarity on his message on his niche on his offer. Like, those are the foundational pieces. And we all want to skip ahead to the tactics. And one of the key things I like to share with my clients is we have to get strategy before tactics. It otherwise it’s like, you know, it’s like decorating a cake before it’s fully baked. So you know,

Heather Pearce Campbell 7:57
Well, and it feels it’s why I think for people that have the experience in the business of like, throwing spaghetti against the wall, and just seeing what works that’s like, they’re just trying tactics, like, let’s try this. Let’s try this. Let’s try this and not necessarily doing it in accordance with a plan or a strategy about like, we’re going to test this first or take this thing to market or use this messaging. And I think it’s, you know, it can feel really crazy and hard for people that don’t understand that concept of having the full strategy. What are some of the other things that you see people doing wrong in this space? Right. And for me, I think there’s a lot of noise in the marketplace about marketing. What do you see people like, aside from, you know, doing a little bit backward doing tactics first, instead of strategy? What else do you see people generally doing wrong?

Cindy Schulson 8:52
Oh, it goes back to, it’s so funny. Like, I just spoke today to a client in my membership program, and she was like, she’s following somebody else. And because she was trained in that person’s methodology, and then she said to me, no, I was trying to be her. And she’s like, that’s not who I am. Um, so another big mistake, I think, is that we try to copy people. And I love giving people templates. And I love you know, teaching the strategies behind the marketing and all of that, but ultimately, marketing only works when it’s tailored to you. And so, and this, this isn’t going to go into a mini-rant, can I go?

Heather Pearce Campbell 9:37
Yes, of course.

Cindy Schulson 9:40
Like, okay, so everybody wants to sell these programs, right? All the coaches want to sell these programs that are leveraged, it’s all about scaling and all this stuff, right? And, you know, we’ve talked about this. But to me, it’s like, you can’t just take somebody’s system and just copy and paste it. You have to really figure out how to tailor it to you or it’s not going to work. It’s not authentic, it’s not unique to you like it’s not adapted, aligned to you, and your business. So like, I love that people have programs and steps and everything for people to follow. I do too. But there has to be enough coaching and support in there to help people really figure out how to make it work for them. So, you know, yes, follow systems follow leaders that inspire you. But don’t forget to put you in there.

Heather Pearce Campbell 10:37
Yes, well, and I’m so glad you say that, because I do, I think one of the problems in the marketplace is, again, the templates, the systems like do it this way. And, people will try that without knowing really how to do that final piece, which is to bring their unique voice to that particular piece of work. And I laughed, because like, I’m in the middle of a website, upgrade myself. So I’m having to dig into like, my copy and all the language and you know, do all the work. And I go like I’ve been visiting some copywriters websites just for tips on writing and kind of, you know, just getting inspiration again, about how I can bring some new life to this website, upgrade and, and I’ll read people’s stuff on their website and be like, Man, you know, she’s really catchy or interesting. But at the same time, I think to myself, like, I would never use language like that, right? works for her. And I admire it. And I feel like I totally get a sense of like, her sass or her, you know, opinions or whatever. And as much as I would want to, like, you know, have that level of engagement or whatever you want to call it, like, I just recognized, those are not words I would use ever in my business or in my own marketing. And so I think the struggle is really about how do we bring our voice, to our business to our marketing in a way that really allows us to shine and brings our unique story or our unique self forward, but also does it in the way that we want it to write, engages people lets them know with clarity what we’re doing and how we can serve them. So I don’t know if you can talk about that. For people that are at that point of like, understanding they need to be unique, but not understanding like, how do they close that gap? How do they do that?

Cindy Schulson 12:28
I love that. And by the way, when we’re offline, let me give you access to my copy program that I have. And learn a little bit more. So yeah, okay, so I think that’s so true. So the one key thing that I think really, really helps people, when it comes to making your unique message is creating what I call your core message. And it’s not your marketing message. So here’s the way I kind of break it down, right? So your typical message marketing message is from your head. We’ve all seen the templates, I helped so and so do such and such, so they can write awesome. You need that piece. That’s the clarity piece. Yeah. But if you stop there, you end up sounding like everybody else who does what to do. One of one of the key things I help my clients with is creating this core message, excuse me, which is really the heart piece, which is what do you stand for in your business? What is the stand you’re here to take for your clients? And when you tap into that, that’s the passion piece. And I love pulling it out of my client, because I just feel the passion when they start going there, you know, and that..

Heather Pearce Campbell 13:05
You probably see them light up. And it’s like a shift in the way that they talk about it.

Cindy Schulson 13:48
Exactly like the energy is there, the passion is there. So that becomes the heart of your brand. And you want to make sure that everything you say and do reflects that message, and you want to put that in your marketing message and you want to put it in your website copy. And when you speak, everything should be aligned with that. Because really, what’s your brand is just how people think and feel about you. Right? So. And one other key to remember though, the reason this is so important is yes, you want to be unique. But we also have to remember that people buy on emotion, and they justify with logic. So your message has to connect with the hearts and minds of your ideal clients. And the only way to do that is to put your heart and your mind in your message. That’s right. That’s why it’s so important.

Heather Pearce Campbell 14:39
I love that that piece about you know, we buy on emotion and for anybody who thinks that’s not true. Like, think back to any purchase you made, especially when that if you’d let your rational mind make the decision. You’ve been like, Oh, it’s out of my budget, right? But that’s not the conversation that you have when you are going to buy something that you really, really want, like you find a way to buy it? Right? You don’t let your rational mind talk you out of it because it is your emotion driving that purchase.

Cindy Schulson 15:09
Yeah, and by the way, this isn’t just in b2c, it’s b2b too, because the people you’re selling to in corporate or and you know, nonprofits wherever, there’s still people.

Heather Pearce Campbell 15:19
That’s right.

Cindy Schulson 15:20
And it’s not just about like a mushy message. It’s about your passion, your why your stand. So it’s not just about like woowoo touchy feely stuff. It’s really about the stand you’re here to take.

Heather Pearce Campbell 15:31
Yes, absolutely. Oh, that, you know, it reminds me that particular you know, taking a stand, and it really is about that connection, and people sensing who you are, and what you’re there to do, my sister who had no experience, like no experience at all, in Siemens, like medical technology, She now works for Siemens, but she didn’t have a background in medical stuff in tech, any of that. And she got a sales position there through sheer hard work and grit. And she’s like, she’s blowing it up. She’s amazing. And she does things that other people don’t do in her sales presentations. And when she meets with people, and like, even in working with her team, and this is just one idea that for some reason related to that topic of like, how you show up and what you’re taking a stand for. Right? She’s in mammography, so she’s all about serving women, and, you know, women’s health, and getting her team on board was has had its own challenges because mammography is a department and Siemens has been like largely kind of ignored, like, underserved compared to other departments in the business. And she had a whole bunch of I think a-es, which are like her area representatives and other people on the team. And in her presentation, she had asked them to send pictures of their families. And she took all the women out. So she had these photos, and she took women out and like plugged their family’s faces into her presentations like this is what you’re working for this is the work that we’re doing is we’re saving lives of women, because our technology is so much better than what else is out there in the marketplace. Like really making it like a personal duty and personal connection to, to, to get this information to the marketplace in the right way. And as soon as she personalized it. And they realize like oh my gosh, the power of what they were actually being called to do. Anyway, she’s done some really unique things. And she has got a team that loves her that is on board that like sees the mission of that department in a way that they did not before. And it’s only because of how she shows up how she put like unheard of that her heart into her work and love that.

Cindy Schulson 17:56
That’s a great story, Heather, because you know, one of the things that we have to remember to is that people will follow as a leader, your leader in your business, too. And so we want to follow people who take a stand.

Heather Pearce Campbell 18:12
Yes. Right.

Cindy Schulson 18:13
And yes, you might attract some people you might, you know, distract. What was the word?

Heather Pearce Campbell 18:19
Yeah. I know, repel.

Cindy Schulson 18:23
You might turn away some people and that’s okay. You know that you want to do the work that lights you up and you want to work with the people light you up. So yeah, it’s all about and Don’t you think it’s such a cool way to grow as a person is through your business? Yeah, right. The like turning. It keeps freezing. I’m so sorry. Can you hear me?

Heather Pearce Campbell 18:45
Yeah, that’s good. Okay, let’s just try this for a while.

Cindy Schulson 18:48
Okay. I was seeing how people want to follow people who are leaders. Yeah, their business.

Heather Pearce Campbell 18:54
Oh, yes. And then you said Isn’t it fun? Because and what I was starting to say about business, in my opinion, being really one in the same with your personal journey, right, your personal development journey. And actually, Tom I love Tom Poland from our same mastermind group, we had a really interesting chat and, you know, he loves so he says personal development is really his first love in business as a second love. So he’s totally my kind of guy. And one of the things actually, that I have loved about this podcast is how frequently with each guest, we get into both personal development topics and business, and for me, that’s the perfect conversation because they are the same journey, you know, being able to show up powerfully like doesn’t happen in your business if you’re not also doing that in your life.

Cindy Schulson 19:45
Yeah, it’s so true. And I have to say like, to me, like I’ve had all kinds of adventures we all have, I’ve lived in five different countries and you know, done all kinds of fun things. But being a mom number one was one that really helped me grow because it was the first time in my life, I had to actually ask for help. Yeah. Like I was always so independent, but also being an entrepreneur more than anything, I think. Like, there’s the ups and the downs. So it’s like totally working on mindset. Yeah, I think you’ve probably talked to Nina cook. Right? I think you.

Heather Pearce Campbell 20:18
We’ve connected. Yes. I haven’t interviewed her yet.

Cindy Schulson 20:24
She’s wonderful. So but you know, we always have to keep working on our mindset. Yes. And, and it’s so cool. Because when I stretch myself, like as a person, because really mindsets really about stretching you as a person, then it bleeds into your business and when you grow is your business. And it helps you develop yourself as a person. So I don’t see it. It’s like, like, there’s so intertwined, right? You can’t separate the two.

Heather Pearce Campbell 20:50
Yeah, no, I literally see it like a rope with, you know, the intertwined threads just wrapping all the way up. And it’s true, it’s, which is, you know, I think, for me, in part, what makes it really fun to spend time in both places, you know, they are so connected, and it would feel like a very, very different kind of journey if all you were focused was on business and business learning and business tactics and strategies without that balance of the personal development. I mean, yeah, that my, my sorry, no, you’re fine. That my, my pleasure reading, right. And it’s the books that I’ve always read, and that’ll probably always read are either in business or self development. Right. And they’re fun like that. Those are fun topics for me. So it’s no wonder that I love conversations on this on the same topics.

Cindy Schulson 21:42
You know, it just reminded me, I thought, well, let me give an example of a core message on the personal development from a personal development coach I’ve worked with that’s okay. Just to make it more tangible. What are we talking about? Yes, yes. So this is a woman I worked with a while ago, Liz, that, and her core message, and I might be getting the words slightly wrong. But it was something like personal development isn’t about reinventing yourself, it’s about celebrating who you truly are. And that’s like an example of like the stance she’s here to take. Because a lot of times in personal development, it’s always like about moving towards something. And she really wants people to know, it’s just more about moving into who you really are. Yes. And so then we turn it into a marketing message where we infuse it in her marketing message. And again, I could be getting it slightly wrong. But it’s something like I guide spiritual women, to step into who they truly are. So they can make a profound difference. They’re here to make. So like, if you just communicate from the head, and you don’t put that stand in there, if you don’t have the same passion for it, and you don’t attract the people who really resonate with your, with your approach with.

Heather Pearce Campbell 22:53
Yeah, that’s right. No, I think that that key of really combining the heart and mind is, is just so essential, and for sure, from the standpoint of pulling in drawing in the right people, right? That and that’s, that’s our whole goal is to draw in the right people and repel the wrong ones. I mean, if somebody and just as an example, like a few weeks back, I sent out an email on Black Lives Matter issue, and I had, like, you know, five, maybe four unsubscribes, but it was like, Adios. You are not somebody that I want in my database, if you know if supporting Black Lives Matter is not a thing that you care about. And I’m totally okay with that. Right.

Cindy Schulson 23:38
Yeah, absolutely.

Heather Pearce Campbell 23:40
And so yes, I think the importance of putting our heart into our messaging just can’t be underscored enough from the standpoint of absolutely pulling in the right people and repelling the wrong ones.

Cindy Schulson 23:53
Absolutely. And you know, and it’s so funny cuz I, sometimes there’s a guy that I’m working with, and he’s an IT guy by background now, as a coach, and he’s like, I need you to help me communicate more from my heart, it’s all good in my head. I need to like if you’re in it, but even just in corporate like, Oh, my gosh, so many corporate people were like, little robots, and we’re just trained like a certain way and act a certain way. And it’s so liberating, like in your business, that you can do things how you want. And that’s why I’m always also so passionate about not just following like a cookie-cutter template, but like really putting you in your business and in your marketing. Because, like, what an amazing opportunity this is to do that, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell 24:42
Oh, it’s huge. And for sure, for people who, you know, maybe that kind of languaging doesn’t come naturally for them like how to share, you know, what’s really in their heart or what really makes them tick about their work, right. And usually, I mean, hopefully, there’s some connection there. There’s some reason they love what they do. And that’s the part that needs to come out. But I can imagine, you know, whole industries actually full of, you know, engineers or scientists or people where that language is not going to be natural. I laugh because at the start of COVID, I’m not laughing at anything because of COVID. But my husband is a scientist. And he, of course, he works with a whole group of scientists. And like the first week that COVID hit and kind of exploded here in Seattle, the first decision they made was to label their employees as either essential or nonessential. And I just laughed out loud, like, what a thing, like, of course, what an exactly scientific thing to do, like, I mean, not scientific in itself, but like something that would happen in the science community, your essential, your non-essential. And so what that meant is that essential employees had to come in, you know, to work, still non-essential ones had to stay home. And so I teased with my husband, because he was essential and still had to go in everyday to work that, you know, the people at home, were probably licking their wounds about being called non essential. But the bonuses, they got to stay at home.

Cindy Schulson 26:10
Yeah, yeah, I think COVID has us all, looking at things slightly differently. But you know, you mentioned at the beginning how, you know, we’ve been you two, you’ve both been, we’ve both been busy during COVID. And there’s, I’m like, the eternal optimist. Like there’s always a silver lining, right, and there’s so many silver linings for us during COVID. to, you know, I mean, there’s so many ways to sort of look at the benefits of it personally and professionally. So I don’t know, I always try to think that way. That’s just kind of how my brains wired. Like, for for people who have been doing business offline, and now they’re bringing it online, there’s huge opportunity in terms of getting your life back in terms of reaching way more people in terms of being able to, you know, earn more income and even leveraged income. But you do have to make sure when you’re marketing online, that it’s a little different. You know, and I don’t mean so much about the tactics with the marketing funnel. I mean, you have to have really clear focus and clear messaging, if you really want to be able to stand out online, because it is way, way more opportunity, but also way noisier, right? Yes. So that’s something to really think about. Because, you know, when you’re offline, you’re not going to like, meet somebody and walk away from them as they try to explain what they do. If it takes more than three seconds to get online. That’s what happens. If you don’t capture them right away in like, seconds. They’re gone.

Heather Pearce Campbell 27:45
Yeah. So true. No, you’re absolutely right, that the clarity becomes really, really important in the online space. And there’s, there’s so much happening there. There’s so much noise, there’s so much distraction, there’s so many people competing for that attention online, that, you know, you better be able to get right to the heart of it and you know, call out exactly who you serve and what you’re doing. I mean, pretty quickly, so that you’re not lost in the traffic and lost in the shuffle.

Cindy Schulson 28:17
Yes. And also do it in a way that has you not sounding like everybody else. Yes, yeah. So that’s why this whole message piece becomes so important to know. And then the other thing that I think we have to think to adapt to as well online, is that we have to build that relationship of trust. Because it’s a little harder to trust people you don’t know, you’re reaching way more people who you don’t know. Yeah. And so we have to really build that relationship of trust. And to me the best way to do that, and I’m sure you would agree, Heather, because you do the same thing is by adding real value in your marketing. Yeah. And I always like to have people say, Well, you know, if I give away all this stuff, I don’t worry about it. You know, my motto is like, you’ve probably heard the expression, give them what they want, then sell them what they need. Have you heard that expression?

Heather Pearce Campbell 29:11
Yeah, the sell them what they want and deliver what they need?

Cindy Schulson 29:15
Yeah, so I’ve heard like, give them what they want, meaning speak to what they want, with what they want, and then sell them what they need. And we say this all the time. Like, I’m gonna hook you with this. And I’m going to tell you all my stories, and then I’m going to sell you my program.

Heather Pearce Campbell 29:30
Oh got, no, I like that. And I think I was seeing it slightly differently. So I see what you’re saying. You’re saying upfront, give away what they want, sell them what they need, and I thought it had to..

Cindy Schulson 29:40
But actually, I’m going to flip that’s got industry says but because my my motto is to give them what they want, then teach them what they need. Yes. And I never worry about like giving a lot of value to teaching everything. And I always know the right people. The ones who are really committed to getting results will raise their hand to say, I want to talk to you about how can I apply this in my business?

Heather Pearce Campbell 29:40
Yes. No, that part I totally understand. And I do as well. So a lot of you know, the ways that I end up actually connecting with people is because I was brought in to present to a group and I will teach all day long on what people need so that they understand the map. Because once they and you know, it’s funny, like I look at the traditional legal industry, and like, I just kind of shake my head, because I’m like, why don’t you understand this, that if you give people the map, you actually help to create the kind of client that you want, that says, like, oh, now I’m a more empowered version of myself that can actually make the right decisions. And now I’m prepared to buy the thing that I need, because I know what it is. And I know where it fits on my map. And so I can show up and fulfill my needs because now I understand them. And I call the traditional legal industry, the, the blackbox legal industry, right? That’s a blackbox model, like you have to pay a lot to get inside, you have to pay a lot to even get the map and I give away the map, like I will teach all day long on the map so that people have an understanding of their business from a legal perspective, because then they go, Oh, guess what, I should probably do ABC and XYZ, and then they become your client without understanding that they need ABC XYZ, they just keep their head in the sand.

Cindy Schulson 31:34
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you could teach people all day long, but true transformation doesn’t happen with just information. Right? It happens to support. So right, we have to just add real value. And I love that about teaching them the math, you know, I call it the client journey. The steps you take your client,

Heather Pearce Campbell 31:53
And the map, yeah, m-a-p map.

Cindy Schulson 31:55
Okay. Okay. Because I teach people like to create, like a client journey. What are the steps you take with your clients? And what are the results you help them achieve at each step? Yeah. And that’s really what we’re selling. We’re not selling coaching, we’re not selling our time, we’re selling a journey. And the results that we get, because like, a lot of people will say, well sell results, not the coaching. But you can’t just say I’m going to help you achieve this, you have to be able to really showed them how, without focusing on the process, meaning like, you know, the benefits of coaching or whatever it is that you do, you’ve got to map out the journey, and show them it becomes so much more tangible. So they’re more confident, oh, yeah, I can see how I’m going to get to my goal, you showed me a pathway. So that’s another way of thinking about, like, add value by teaching parts of your client journey or the whole journey. And that way, also, when people come to do a consultation with you, they already know how you can help them.

Heather Pearce Campbell 33:00
Yes, no, that’s it. That’s exactly right. I mean, that that scenario, what you’re talking about, like showing the client journey. So I have a presentation that I do, where I walk people through what I call my five bucket framework for business protection. And we literally like I have a map and I walk them through these five buckets. And we’ve talked about what’s in each bucket. And the interesting thing is that I give that training away for free, right, I have it inside of a legal basics boot camp, I will walkthrough, you know, as much as I can and an introductory call. It’s also the same thing that people pay me $1500 to walk them through in relation to their own business, same system, same map. And I talked very openly about it. But there is a difference between, you know, being taught the concepts being taught what the map looks like, and then actually going through the experience of saying, Okay, now take my business through the map. Right,

Cindy Schulson 33:58
Exactly, exactly. Which goes back to what we talked about at the beginning, which is marketing only works when it’s tailored to you same with any part of your business. Right. It has to be tailored to you.

Heather Pearce Campbell 34:09
That’s right. That’s right. Well, and I know I mean, this is just such a great topic. I mean, everybody, especially in the space that you and I work in, which I think is quite similar, right. As far as coaches, consultants, online educators, speakers, authors, who else do you work with people outside of that group? Who are your clients?

Cindy Schulson 34:30
Yeah, I love that. You know, I really work almost exclusively with coaches and consultants. But it’s funny, because just recently I had somebody come to me who does something completely different. He owns insurance, brokerage. And at first, I thought, Oh my gosh, like, I can’t help you. I know. And then, excuse me, and then I started looking at his website and I was like, Oh my gosh, this guy, totally needs me. Yeah. Because his message was so like all over the place. And his copy wasn’t right on and his lead magnet wasn’t the right thing. And his cleaning journey wasn’t clear. And Excuse me. So we’re working on all those things. And it’s awesome. And so I’ve learned to like, not worry so much like, to me, it’s like, Yes, you’ve got to be really clear on who your ideal client is. And I’m very, very clear. For me. It’s somebody who has a foundation of success in their business or career and they want to come online. There’s no doubt that to my ideal client is, but and here’s the nice thing. If somebody who doesn’t fit that exact description comes to me. I can still work with them.

Heather Pearce Campbell 35:45
Right, you can still help them.

Cindy Schulson 35:47
And you’re not you, Heather, but somebody’s listening. Yeah, when you’re choosing a niche, like, don’t let it feel like it’s boxing you in, it’s just about focusing on you it doesn’t mean that you can’t help other people who come to you if they resonate with your message.

Heather Pearce Campbell 36:03
No, I love that I think people because one of the questions I was actually gonna ask you is do you think that people get afraid of limiting their message or limiting their, their potential prospects or turning people away because of going to that heart place?

Cindy Schulson 36:20
Oh, there’s no doubt people are, there’s lots of fears. We talked about personal development, lots of fears, especially on niche. I actually just published an article on the different fears we have around niches. And so I want to share for anybody who is struggling with this one of my favorite ways to overcome that fear. Yes, I can go with the whole head thing and explain why it’s so important because you have to speak to your ideal client. But let’s do a visual, I want you to picture the way we typically think of the word niche. And forgive me for my weirdness. I’m from Montreal originally. So if I say nice, weirdly, just ignore it. But the way we typically picture it is like a hole in the wall, right? And what the word niche actually comes from the French word Nishi, which means to nest. So now instead of picturing a hole in the wall, I want you to envision a nest. And what is the nest, it is made of things like straw, and twigs, which are it’s completely malleable, which means it’s going to change and evolve and refine itself, it’s going to shift and that’s okay. And the other thing that’s so beautiful about a nest is it gives birth to something. So when you think about a nest, instead of think of when you think about a niche, instead of feeling like you’re stuck in a hole in the wall, just think about it as something that you use to help give birth to something which is really going to be you know, a focused, clear business. But it will evolve and it will refine itself over time. And that’s totally okay.

Heather Pearce Campbell 38:01
Yeah, no, the nest, the nest visual is great. And I would add the refinement over time. Oh my gosh, it just it brings to mind I was watching we do a lot of nature shows in our house, especially for my little buddy who’s who just turned eight. But sometimes if mommy and daddy are both working at the same time, right, we have to go-to devices. Yes, I’ve got a three-year-old. So we’re big fans of nature’s shows. And some of the nest like they’ve it’s like National Geographic, right where they’re following these really exotic birds. And like some of the nest they build are so ornate and beautiful. They look like a building like they look like so tall and twigs sticking out in different heights anyways, I love your visual, first of all of you know, changing that impression from being something very limited to something that you know, gives birth. And also that evolves. I think that’s important. And to me, the power of a niche is that people know exactly if they’re in or out when they connect with your marketing. And, you know, yes, you’re probably going to repel some people that if they just think like, Oh, well, I’m not in that particular, you know, pool of clients that they serve, but like you, if they like what you do, and they connect with your messaging, and they’re outside of that group, they may still get in touch, they may still see an opportunity to work with you. So it doesn’t automatically exclude people.

Cindy Schulson 39:29
Exactly. It’s just about focusing on you and the funny thing is I’m now helping him develop a coaching program.

Heather Pearce Campbell 39:37
I love that, that’s really fun. Well, and so I think that you know, we’ve covered a lot I love the power of people getting clarity on this. I love that there’s people like you Cindy to help us all get clarity because it is a journey. It’s not something where I feel like anybody just like starts out of the chute and has everything right. So it takes some time to develop and figure it out. But I think you’ve got a couple of gifts that can help people on their way. And for those listening, make sure that you check out the show notes. Because I’m going to plug in Cindy’s contact information. I’m going to plug in links as far as reaching her as well as these gifts. But Cindy, do you want to share with us for a moment about your gifts?

Cindy Schulson 40:21
I do. Thank you. So one is we talked about templates. And again, you have to adapt it to you. And I give you some some ways to do that. But if you’re struggling with your message, go to brand message template calm. And you will get that and it shows you how to put the heart and the mind in your message. And then the other gift is we talked a little bit about the client journey. And I have a free 20 minute training that you can get that takes you through how to create a coaching package that sells itself. So again, you’ll put the links in, right?

Heather Pearce Campbell 41:00
Yeah, I will. Yep. So for people listening, if you go to the show notes page, which is just legal website, forward slash podcast, you’ll see Cindy’s episode there, and you can get the show notes. So for both her brand message template, and then what’s the second one, Cindy?

Cindy Schulson 41:16
Yeah. The second one is marketing from, forward slash clients.

Heather Pearce Campbell 41:21
Awesome. And that one is the 20 minute mini webinar on how to create a coaching package that sells itself. I mean, they both sound brilliant, I’m excited to check them out. And then for people that want to just connect with you and either learn more speak to you directly. I think that you mentioned a talk with, and they can schedule like an introductory call or something.

Cindy Schulson 41:44
Yeah, absolutely. You can just go to my website and schedule a chat. And if you can’t find a time that works, just, you know, my schedule is a little dizzy. So just feel free to reach out. I’m on Facebook a lot. I have a free Facebook group, which you’re welcome to join as well, the marketing with heart group. So and you know what, I have to thank my husband because I am the only Cindy Schulson on Facebook.

Heather Pearce Campbell 42:10

Cindy Schulson 42:11
Isn’t that cool? Like, uh, yeah, that’s rare. So you can reach out to me that way, or email me, Cindy, at marketing from It’s all good.

Heather Pearce Campbell 42:23
Oh, that’s awesome. Well, Cindy, I’m so grateful we had the chance to connect and just really, you know, remind people of the importance of their messaging, the importance of getting it right. And really, you know, staying out of the space where everybody’s looking the same, doing the same things. I mean, yes, the importance of templates, including your own, I think is a really great starting point. But you know, really connecting their heart with their messaging and getting some support. And doing that, I think is such a powerful thing. Any final thoughts before we sign off anything that you want to leave our listeners with?

Cindy Schulson 43:00
I think just one of my favorite mottos in business, which is built on success. And so we tend to be going back to that whole personal development thing, we tend to be so hard on ourselves. And if something didn’t work perfectly, we think oh, that didn’t work on to the next. Instead of doing that, just take what you did and look at what did work from it, celebrate that. And then think about how you can improve it. And when we just take those steps forward and keep improving things. We’re going to get there much faster than if we just think oh, the negative part. Yeah, be just switch from one thing to the next. Yeah, keep moving forward. And you’ll get there.

Heather Pearce Campbell 43:41
Oh, I love that baby steps not having to throw everything out or scrap it all or start from scratch each time. Yeah. Which Yeah, I’m sure we’ve all had feelings and moments where we’ve wanted to do that. We’ll Cindy I appreciate you. I’m so grateful for the chance to connect on here and share this with listeners again. Just as a reminder, check out the show notes Thank you so much, Cindy, so great to connect with you.

Cindy Schulson 44:09
Thank you so much for the opportunity, love chatting with you.

Heather Pearce Campbell 44:13

GGGB Intro 44:18
Thank you for joining us today on the Guts Grit and Great Business podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup, and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, visit the shownotes at Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us to keep up the great work you are doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.