With Csaba Borzási, the Owner and Founder of Game of Conversions. He was a former psychology researcher turned direct response marketing consultant and sales funnel copywriter. Csaba helps clients create consistent cash flow while impacting more people around them. For years, he struggled to get his business off the ground and create profitable marketing campaigns that actually make money, but he thought he was getting nowhere and decided to go all-in and master the timeless fundamentals of the “ultimate persuasive skill” – direct response copywriting. 

Join us for this conversation to hear more of Csaba’s insights on how you can convert more casual leads into high-AOV customers and plug the holes in your “leaky” funnels.

>Subscribe to Guts, Grit & Great Business on Apple Podcasts

Biggest takeaways (or quotes) you don’t want to miss:

  • “AOV stands for Average Order Value which means that whenever someone buys something from you and maximize the amount they spend with you, then obviously you are making more profit which means you can spend more on other things like advertising.”
  • “People always want new tactics. They always want the new shiny object. They want the hot thing, and they’ve been burned.”
  • “One of the biggest things I see people misunderstand they want is an ad they want. They want the super high converting message, but they forget that they’re talking to a real life, flesh and blood, people who are mad.”
  • “Because if you’re trying to sell something that people fundamentally don’t want, they just don’t want it. You can have the best copy ever but it’s still not going to work.”
  • “One of the other very interesting things is that if you want to be really successful at advertising especially in a very crowded marketplace like how the online space is now, you want to make the advertisement itself valuable.”
  • “People want educational emails. They want a little bit of trivia about you if they like what you offer… They want to learn from you because they’ve seen that you can give them value. The reason why they keep reading your emails is because they want to hear from you.”
  • “Just have some empathy and try to connect with their emotions. If you do, you don’t have to use all these fancy formula and everything because the message is going to just come naturally.”

“If you want to write an email to your list and you have great stories but nothing really comes, just record yourself talking, just sit in front of a mirror and imagine that you’re talking to a friend and record yourself and transcribe that. You’ll see how much better it flows usually, because when we’re talking especially we’re in storytelling mode, people are way more efficient at getting the message across.”

Csaba Borzási

Check out these highlights:

  • 06:16 We’re all buying transformation. They don’t buy the product, they don’t buy features, they don’t buy benefits. They buy the transformation and the dream.
  • 25:19 A lot of people don’t have proper offers. They want to spend money on ads, but they don’t have something compelling.
  • 29:19 What really matters is whether you have a promise that you can help someone solve a genuine problem in a different way that’s superior to anything else they’ve tried before, and you can back it off with a lot of proof, and then give them a compelling offer and a call to action. That’s the essence of the whole thing.
  • 35:17 At the end of the day, whenever you want to build a business, a list is the most important which comprises 41%, then you have the offer which is at 39%, and the copy is the remaining 20%.
  • 44:47 What separates master classes from webinars is that master classes provide even more content and they sell less, and they don’t try to use all these sophisticated persuasion triggers and NLP techniques.
  • 45:36 Advertorials work so well because they share stories or they really give tangible tips for people before actually driving them to a landing page.
  • 50:49 Email still works. It’s the best consistent marketing channel that has the best “bang for your buck”.
  • 56:30 You have to know your audience. The more research you have, the more you know their pains, fears, hopes, and dreams, the more naturally all this comes. And that’s the real solution to Blank Page Syndrome.

How to get in touch with Csaba:

Learn more about Csaba, by visiting his website (Game of Conversions) here, or you may visit any of his following social media platforms:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/csaba.borzasi.9

Twitter: https://twitter.com/CsabaBorzasi

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/csababorzasi/

Imperfect Show Notes

We are happy to offer these imperfect show notes to make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who prefer reading over listening. While we would love to offer more polished show notes, we are currently offering an automated transcription (which likely includes errors, but hopefully will still deliver great value), below.

GGGB Intro  00:00

Here’s what you get on today’s episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™…

Csaba Borzasi  00:05

Write out like longer version, like much longer version ads that have stories that have, you know, tips on something. That’s why advertorials work so well because they share stories or they give really tangible tips for people before actually driving them to a landing page. And if you have an email list, I’m a super big fan of email marketing. Yeah, just give them content, give them value, share personal, even vulnerable stories from your life. Because those are all the things that established know like and trust, and that makes them actually binge read your emails, and then buy your stuff when and then you don’t have to sell hard. That’s the cool thing you’re selling becomes superfluous if your marketing shifts those beliefs and establishes the one belief that yes, this is indeed different.

GGGB Intro  00:57

The adventure of entrepreneurship and building a life and business you love, preferably at the same time is not for the faint of heart. That’s why Heather Pearce Campbell is bringing you a dose of guts, grit & great business stories that will inspire and motivate you to create what you want in your business and life. Welcome to the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast where endurance is required. Now, here’s your host, The Legal Website Warrior®, Heather Pearce Campbell.

Heather Pearce Campbell  01:12

Alrighty, welcome. I am Heather Pearce Campbell, The Legal Website Warrior®. I am an attorney and legal coach based here in Seattle, Washington, serving entrepreneurs throughout the US and around the world. Welcome to another episode of Guts, Grit & Great Business™. Today, I am so excited to bring you my friend at Csaba Borsazi and Csaba I should have asked you ahead of time, how do you say your last name? (It’s perfect.) Okay, great. I love it. Csaba was introduced through a mutual friend. And we had a really interesting conversation about his work. And we are going to have a fun conversation today. And one that I think will really serve you if you are like most of my clients. And most of the people that I serve. They are in the online information space. They are building information products, businesses that are largely dependent upon creating quite a body of work and information. And so this will be a really fun conversation. And it’s essential to all of our businesses. So it’s one of the main topics that we all need to eventually master and it is a journey. But Csaba. Welcome. I’m so happy to have you here today.

Csaba Borzasi  02:55

So happy to be here as well. Heather, thank you so much for inviting me looking forward to it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  02:59

Yes, you’re welcome. So for those who don’t know Csaba, Csaba is a former psychology researcher turned direct response marketing consultant and sales funnel copywriter. For years he struggled to get his business off the ground and create profitable marketing campaigns that actually make money, but he was getting nowhere and was at the end of his rope. Then he decided to go all in and master the timeless fundamentals of the ultimate persuasive skill, direct response copywriting. He went as far as breaking down 100 proven sales letters in 100 days to uncover the master secrets of the most elite copywriters of all time. And he documented his process daily through YouTube video. So you are welcome to at the end of this episode, we’ll share some links and you can pop over to the show notes where you can access some of his content including these daily YouTube videos. Today Csaba helps ambitious online businesses convert more casual leads into high AOV customers and plug the holes in their leaky funnels. So Travis, I like to break down acronyms for any listener so that we don’t have any confusion tell us what AOV is.

Csaba Borzasi  04:22

Of course, AOV basically stands for average order value. So what I mean by this is that whenever someone buys something from you, if you can maximize the amount they spend with you, then obviously you are making more profit, which means you can spend more on advertising for example, which means even if your cost per acquisition is higher, you can still stay in the game. So that’s what I mean because there’s a difference between someone who buys something but it’s, it’s let’s say a very low price product. But there’s like a whole other thing to persuade someone to buy to buy into your coaching program for example.

Heather Pearce Campbell  04:59

Yeah, yeah. I remember really early on a simple business lesson, in my journey where it was like, Look, you want to make more money in your business, there’s three ways to do it, right? Sell more of the thing that you’re already selling, right? Sell more to your current customers, right. So sell more of the thing you’re already selling usually means going out and finding new people to sell it to, or raise your prices. But it is, you know, when you think about the ways that we can add value to our businesses and to our clients, you know, creating a higher dollar customer, at least in my experience usually also means a better, more permanent outcome, right, you get a higher investment out of somebody, you get a longer term relationship, you get a higher level of commitment, like there’s so much good that comes from that.

Csaba Borzasi  05:55

Absolutely. And that’s how you get raving fans in most cases, because the more they spend with you, on average, let’s say, the more likely they are to actually do the work, experience results and to experience the mindset shifts that are needed for them to experience the transformation they’re looking for. Because ultimately, we’re all buying transformation. They don’t buy the product, they don’t buy features. They don’t buy benefits, they buy the transformation and the dream.

Heather Pearce Campbell  06:23

That’s right. Yeah, I love that. So so but let’s backtrack a little bit. I’d love for people to know a bit more about you. Can you share with us a little bit about your history and your roots?

Csaba Borzasi  06:35

Sure. So fun fact, I’m actually an ethnic Hungarian, who was born and raised in the Transylvania region of Romania. So I know this might be a lot. But yes, it is d Transylvania, from the movies where supposedly vampires come from, but I promise I’m not one wing. But anyway, I’m, basically I come from Eastern Europe. And I was born and raised in a small town of 15,000 people. And ever since I was a kid, I was always interested in, in reading about all sorts of stuff, and just understanding how the world works. And very quickly, one of my key driving forces in life became to understand get as close as possible to understanding how the world, including the human mind works. And I was a little bit of blank sheet there.

Heather Pearce Campbell  07:27

Just a small goal, just a small goal.

Csaba Borzasi  07:30

Yeah, I mean, I realized I never, I will never be able to understand everything, everything, but as get as close as I can, to understanding that there was an achievable goal. And you know, it’s loosely defined, so I’m happy with it. But I was kind of a black sheep, because of this, because the culture I come from, you know, it’s a post communist country, and people have been living under under a brutal dictatorship for 60 plus years, and my parents also grew up in this era. And in that culture, you know, one of the key things to survive was to basically stay average. And don’t try to be like, super creative or don’t try to get attention. Yeah, don’t stand out completely opposite to what you need nowadays, online, you have to stand out, you have to have a unique selling proposition or unique mechanism or something. So I was basically taught to, to stay average, and to try to stay boring, because that’s the way that the guarantee safety. That’s the way how the secret police wouldn’t take you away. And I didn’t really care, like, you know, I still got tons of great values from growing up in that culture, for example, just being someone who appreciates the smaller things in life. Because it was a pretty poor country back then now, this less so but back then it was, you know, we had big inflation years, all throughout the 90s, you know, 30%, inflation and 40%, stuff like that. And, you know, you learn different skills in the growing up like that, and that’s one of the reasons why some people consider Eastern Europeans, you know, very crafty people. But I also learned both of my parents, my parents are engineers, by the way, and I also learned, you know, the value of hard work and conscientiousness and, and, and just just being an honest person. And I love this because now it’s super useful because especially in the online marketing world, there are so many gurus, so many Lamborghini, you know, scam artists, and everybody’s trying you trying to get you to buy their coaching program. Now. It’s crypto, it’s a crypto coaching program. A few years ago, it was like, I don’t know how to get clients and Instagram. Before that it was something else there was always something like that. And surprise, surprise being authentic and being honest and being, you know, well, not not as Campster is, is what works nowadays people see through all the BS, and yeah, this is this, this is really cool.

Heather Pearce Campbell  10:13

Yeah, well, it’s, you know, this, this whole thing about being authentic, even that word is a little overused. Like, I wish we could all just start with the assumption that, you know, people are that and, and yet, you’re right, there’s so there’s so much and there, there has been. And I think there always will be a certain percentage of people online who are not that they’re literally just looking for the fast dollar the fast sale. But even in, you know, I come from law. And so as the landscape changes, even in the legal world, which is, you know, let’s be clear that it’s a relatively slow moving industry, and because of its lack of responsiveness, you know, over recent years, especially the last decade, there’s been a lot of movement in the fringe of the marketplace with alternative legal service providers coming into the marketplace. And that has freaked certain people out. And yet, the thing that I tell even my colleagues who, because many of my colleagues are solo practitioners, or they’ve got small teams, they’re not the big law firms, right, my services are targeted towards the little guys. And it also means that many of my my colleagues are also and 50%, I think, or more of attorneys are solo practitioners, right? It’s a huge percentage of the marketplace. And even as they get nervous about other options coming into the marketplace, and you think about this in the online world, which is saturated, you know, with so many different things and experts and bodies of information, yet the one thing none of us ever want to give up when we’re engaging a service or hiring a business or, you know, really, regardless of whatever we’re doing is relationship, right? We want that relationship, that connection, that access to the expert, but it’s because of the relationship because we want that established connection. And so, you know, for people, I think that understand that and build that into their business model. I mean, one, it just makes business so much more fun. But to to your point, it works. Right? That’s, that’s what people want. So I love that I just, you know, can’t say it enough, because I think a lot of people that one of the other recent trends that you’ve probably also witnessed in the online world is people wanting to you know, move away from one on one services. And it’s like the one too many, and they want to take themselves out of the equation. And I just think it’s the wrong goal. It’s the wrong way of looking at how to grow your business, like how do you keep yourself in the equation, right in the in the connection in the the services, still do it in a creative way that’s monetizable, but doesn’t just like create some automated machine, but people don’t need another course. They don’t need another digital digital download. They don’t need another thing like that. That really removes the connection entirely. From the process. Right. So anyways, I’ll get off my soapbox, but, you know, I think it’s an important point. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, so you know, this whole thing about being authentic. And you know, I’m still curious because I want to go back into your roots. One. I love that. You know, your story is really fascinating. And actually just the other day, my kids we were, I think it must be the new Transylvania movie coming out. My son who’s nine had asked, where’s Transylvania? Is it a real place? And I’m like, yeah, it actually is a real place. Now I can tell him that I know somebody from Transylvania. But this this thing about not standing out. Right. I know that culturally, it sounds like it was really embedded into your roots and your family. I think there’s still quite a bit of that, even in the online space. Like it’s a thing to overcome for a lot of people. Because even in even in modern culture, there is safety and not standing out, right for women, for people of color for anybody that that is going to be a target for other reasons. It’s still I think there is this conflict around that area and that topic, and so I appreciate you actually just bringing it up is something that we can think about because it’s it’s very relevant, and it remains relevant for a lot of people. Talk to us specifically about how you got interested in copywriting and messaging, like Where Where did that come from?

Csaba Borzasi  14:45

Sure. So as I was growing up, you know, as I said, I was reading tons of stuff about the world and I always want I was always interested in psychology, and I actually wanted to have a degree in psychology, but everyone kept telling me that you should, you should have a business degree You should, you should have something like that, because you’ll have way more chances to get a good job that way, like psychologists, either they become therapists, which is pretty hard. And there’s a lot of baggage that comes with that, or they go work in a school or something like that. So eventually, I applied for an MBA degree. And then I completed that. And, you know, after four years, because it took five years to get the MBA degree, three years, like undergraduate degree plus two years, the master’s degree, it was about business administration. And then, during my second year of the MBA, I said, you know, I should really I should really give this psychology thing a try as well. And, and I did, and the cool thing about Europe is that most degrees are either free, or they’re very, very affordable. So it’s not like in the states where you have to pay a lot of money to get a degree. So that’s why basically, I have two undergraduate degrees and a master’s degree as well. So I got a B, like a bachelor’s in psychology as well. And then I wanted to apply to, for PhD in behavioral economics, but the places I applied to, you know, they didn’t accept my thesis. And then I said, you know, okay, let’s go into private sector. So I started working at IBM, I worked there as a as like, typical, you know, corporate job for some time. But I was bored, to be honest, like I wanted something more, I wanted something that has more psychology that has more feedback loops quickly. Because everything moves slowly in the corporate work world. And then I became like a direct salesperson from wealth management company. But I only stayed there for half a year because they were dishonest. And they actually I found out that they were, well, not ripping people off, but they wouldn’t offer them the best deals, definitely, you know, actively managed mutual funds and stuff like that with huge costs, huge management fees of like, 3% 4%. It’s crazy. And when I started reading about stuff, like index funds, for example, I was like, Whoa, this is way better. And it’s like, what am I doing? So that was the point when I actually, I had a few friends who were already doing copywriting here in Budapest, because now I live in Budapest, Hungary. And I said, you know, why not? Let’s try it. And I didn’t really have, you know, significant savings at that time or something like that. It was, it was almost like a typical rags to riches story. Not quite, because I wasn’t like, I was down to my last 30 $30. In my bank account, I was living out of my car. Well, not, that’s not true. But I still had to make it work. And I started working on Upwork. At first, this was like five years ago, I landed some clients and then Island, more clients. And I started working in more and more niches, more and more products. And originally, I started an E commerce and I work with watch brands and people who were creating canvases, supplements bunch of things like this. And then I at around 2018, or 17, I started focusing more on information products. And then I really started helping like specializing on helping people create, you know, marketing funnels for online courses and online programs. And then I started getting more into the world of Product Launch Formula from Jeff Walker. A lot of people might be familiar with that. And then I wrote emails for them sales pages, webinars. Eventually, I started understanding how, you know, you actually construct the funnel, how you strategize everything. Then I started building my own website created a YouTube channel. And then this was the journey.

Heather Pearce Campbell  18:58

The rest is history. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you had a really wide range of experiences early on, like in your copywriting endeavors, you know, sounds like a variety of industries, different type types of clients. I’m curious if there were some consistent kind of truths or principles that came out of all of that experience that you started to recognize and like connect the dots on.

Csaba Borzasi  19:24

From a freelancing point of view or from a copywriting point of view?

Heather Pearce Campbell  19:29

Well, either, you know, and I know at some point we can get in because I’d love to hear more about the videos, the 100 videos that you you know, created and that journey because I’m sure there was a ton of fascinating information that came out of that, but what you know, to share with us a little bit about what you started to notice in your copywriting journey.

Csaba Borzasi  19:52

So from a freelancing point of view, I basically had to change a lot of my beliefs because I I’m an introvert at heart, for example. And I had to learn how to properly behave as an extrovert and show up on sales calls and show up on calls on which I delivered copy and just have negotiations with, with a bunch of people. So that was definitely something that I had to relearn. Because, again, my parents didn’t teach me this, because they’re not, they never saw something like this. They were they were, they’re the type of people who work at the same job basically, for decades. And it’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just in this world, you know, this, they need different skills. The other thing was an something that I quickly realized is that it’s very, very important. It’s very important to properly choose who you end up working with, because there’s a lot of sharks out there. And they’re early on, like, I was fortunate, in a sense that early on, I landed my first nightmare client, I think it was my fourth client or third client. And I wrote a full length, like 45 minutes VSL script, like video sales letter, a script for him. And, you know, didn’t even have a contract back then or something. So he ended up like, he was pushing me that he just doesn’t like it, it just doesn’t have the sizzle. That’s what he said, and like no objective feedback or something. And I was like a newbie, but I think the copy was relatively good compared to what he was looking for. And yet, I ended up rewriting it 10 times. And then he still didn’t pay me like 70% of the total project fee. So that was quite, you know, the nightmare story there. Like I dedicated one and a half months on this project exclusively. And then I didn’t get paid, either. But at least I realized very quickly that Yeah, I mean, there are people like this, and it was my fault automatically. I didn’t set expectations properly. I was the one who basically acted like a pushover, I was the one who didn’t specify how many revisions I will offer or something like this.

Heather Pearce Campbell  22:05

That’s a really I mean, you’ve you’ve illustrated what I often am walking people through relative to their own business, right, regardless of what area they’re in, how to set up client expectations in a way, that’s clear, that’s informative, that’s supportive of the relationship but respects your own boundaries, and then how to put legal contracts and legal construct around that, again, to support an ideal outcome for both you know, yourself and your client. But that also specifies what happens if, right, like, especially in the design of creative services, I wrote an article, seven tips for managing scope creep, right? How often scope creep gets out of hand, because clients, especially those kind, that are willing to take advantage of somebody will just keep changing, requesting, modifying, you know, wanting more and more and more. And it is, I mean, as painful as these lessons are, they do inform us in our own business practices moving forward, what we will put up with the kind of clients we’re willing to work with, what supports we need to put in place for our business, whether it’s legal contracts or something else? Right. So that was a great example.

Csaba Borzasi  23:25

Absolutely. And then, you know, I very quickly realized that be you have to say no, a lot of times, and it’s very hard, especially we talked about the culture that I come from, you know, people feel compelled to say, Yes, they’ve been, you know, socialized to say yes, but no, you have to say no. And what I realized later on, like a very good copy radical John Carlton, okay, like he always preaches that you have to be the adult in the room. Because whenever you’re working with a client, for example, they’re hiring you for their expertise. And as I gain more experience, and as I, you know, had insight I learned a lot of insights from different marketing campaigns in dozens of niches, over like hundreds of projects, I actually started preemptively coming up with the strategy itself. So in the beginning, I was just a vendor, but then very quickly, I realized that the main value I can give is just coming up with ideas preemptively. And giving them something that they don’t even know that they need, actually, they just, they just like I realized this very early on on Upwork when I was still working on Upwork. Nowadays, I don’t even take on that many clients. But But I realized that some someone posted a job of like, I need an article written or I need a Facebook ad or something. And then most people would just write one Facebook ad and give it to them but we know that it’s it’s super hit or miss like it, it doesn’t mean anything in itself. So then as I started asking more questions, okay, but how’s your landing page? Like? Where are we driving traffic to? Okay, how’s your lead magnet? What what do we know about the specifics of the target audience were trying to achieve? Like, what’s your offer? Again, a lot of people don’t have proper offers, they want to spend money on ads, but but they don’t have something compelling. So all these things, you know, it just provided me with a lot of experience. And it’s, it was a win win for everyone.

Heather Pearce Campbell  25:31

Hmm. Well, you you’ve highlighted another example of the opportunity that we all have in our work of, I mean, a couple things, one, identifying what we think people are after and offering that right, it’s a little bit like, sell somebody what they want, but deliver what they need. Right? So it’s that like, what is the hook? What is it that people want? So many people miss diagnose their own problem, right? So they come to you, like, Oh, I just need a really good Facebook ad. But like you say, you go to the website, and you’re like, oh, my gosh, like that, you know, problems from the ground up, we need to go way backwards and fix all of this, or, you know, you even take the example of like a functional medicine doctor, you know, somebody’s having some issue, you know, about how they feel in the day. And it’s like, okay, well, what are you eating? What are your caffeine habits, let’s talk about sleep, let’s talk it, you know, you start to like, go deeper and deeper. And that’s really what we need is the people to help us go deeper. 

Csaba Borzasi  26:36


Heather Pearce Campbell  26:38

So, so you have gained, I mean, it sounds like quite a bit of experience in the years that you have been doing copywriting and really expanding the scope of what you deliver and going much deeper into I’m sure, the overall message into like, the whole bones, you know, behind some of these online businesses, the share with us, like, you know, if there’s three things that people should be thinking about when they’re crafting a message or trying to, and you can talk to us from the perspective of like, you know, copywriting essentials, you can talk to us from the perspective of, you know, creating a funnel, like, however you want to share the information, just, you know, share with us some of the insights that you’ve gained that, especially ones that people are often not thinking about, like they’re looking at the surface problem, and they’re not going deeper into the real issues.

Csaba Borzasi  27:31

Yeah, one of the things that consistently comes up is, people always want new tactics, they always want the new shiny object. They want the hot new thing. And they’ve been burned. Many times in the past, they’ve tried different things. But let’s say someone comes out with the hot new clubhouse strategy. And then Oh, my God, this is what I’ve been waiting for all my life. And this is, this is finally going to put my business on the map. And especially after breaking down 200 proven cells that are and I went back like 100 years, I went back to the people who invented the game of direct response, advertising 1920s, and stuff like that. And I analyzed old school space ads, newspaper ads, you know, magazine, ads, Magga, logs, direct mail, a lot of direct mail, you know, from companies like boardroom bottom line, personal agora companies, David Ogilvy, a lot of a lot of these things. And one thing I consistently noticed is that nobody is inventing anything new anymore, like every single guru nowadays, or teacher basically just goes back to the same fundamentals. And there are a few fundamentals that someone like Claude Hopkins came up with 100 years ago. It’s called Scientific Advertising. It’s his, his magnum opus book. And when I see people coming to me many times asking me, you know, which tactics should I go after? What tool? What apps should I use for this? What email marketing service providers should I use, and it doesn’t matter, ultimately, it doesn’t matter. Because what really matters is whether you have a promise that you can help someone solve a genuine problem in a different way that’s superior to anything else they’ve tried before, and you can back it off with with a lot of proof and then give them a compelling offer and a call to action. That’s the essence of the whole thing. And the other big problem is that even if people realize this, they enter into this, this weird marketing mold, and this is especially visible in copywriting, even like I struggle with this sometimes, is that I enter into this writing mode when I have to write a message a sales message. When I have to create one on video, my brain switches a little bit and I start sounding weird and off. And the biggest thing I learned over the course of this challenge, because, you know, in the beginning, I was a relatively successful copywriter, but I used to templates and I and I used a lot of promise based copy, like, you know, those slightly HYPEE headlines, and many people consider good copywriting to be, you know, like a marketing text like, oh, you bold action verbs and a lot of promises. And, and there’s this typical formulas that are used all the time, especially for webinars, for example, but I had to realize that the best copywriting doesn’t sound like copywriting at all, it sounds like you talking to a friend on a Friday night at a bar, that it’s a conversation. This is one of the biggest things I see people misunderstand they want is like an ad they want. They want the super high converting message, but they forget that they’re talking to real life, flesh and blood, people who are mad.

Heather Pearce Campbell  31:11

And they’re talking to people one at a time through that message. Right? I think it’s yes, I think it is really hard for people to relate to copy in that way. And I know exactly what you’re talking about. When you talk about like, these formulaic things and all this hype and you know, the bold statements in the catchy like you see them everywhere you look right. And I think it’s also why least in my opinion, people now are increasingly finding those so tiresome. Oh, absolutely. You know, it’s, and we still have to figure out like, what method are we using to get our message to people, but I think we need to be spending so much more time focusing on what really is the message, right? It’s not about the tactic, or the strategy, or the font color or whatever. It’s, you know, it’s interesting, because when I launched and I’ve been practicing law for gosh, I hate to say this out loud over 20 years now. And, and I’ve built that business and my practice, which I launched right out of law school, entirely by word of mouth, and, and face to face connections, I wasn’t plugged into the legal community, I didn’t know anybody I didn’t, you know, I really did not have roots in law at all, or in Seattle. And so it really was I just knew, like, if I’m going to build a practice and get clients, I need to just connect with people. And so this was done over the phone, it was done face to face, it was done on coffee dates, and lunch meetings. And my goal was just to build my network and meet people because and I graduated at a time, by the way that followed 911, it was the worst time in modern history, for sure. But in like 30 years to be graduating law school was terrible. But I knew even in a downtime, my work is going to come from people, I don’t know what the work will look like, but it will come from people, and I just need to connect with people. And so that happened, one on one, you know, over and over and over. And I think people forget that simple fundamental of business, like even in the online space, right? The goal for so many is like, oh, I want to reach millions. Really? Do you like how many people can you actually serve? You know, maybe if you are strictly all about automation, or whatever that works, but for most businesses, that’s not that and it shouldn’t be the goal. And yet, I think so often people get caught up on the strategies, the tactics, the methods, the the final point I’ll make is that when I launched the legal website, Warrior, and have a website, I, you know, I did it through again, direct outreach, emails, I didn’t have anything that was any proof of concept of kind of this new thing that I was creating, which was an online business designed to support the legal needs of information entrepreneurs. And yet, I was landing some of my ideal clients, just through simple conversations happening via email or on a phone. And even now, like last last year, I launched a $25,000 small business program called the catalyst club. I didn’t have anything written up about it. I had it in my head. I knew what it was. I mean, I knew and I believed in the value. And I was enrolling clients before I’d ever written a landing page or sent an email or you know, and I think, for me, like I’ve continued to be shown kind of by accident over and over again in my career, the truth of what you’re saying, which is that you don’t need all this stuff and the bells and whistles If you’ve got something of real value, right, you’re able to make an offer, you have a clear call to action, people are clear on what they’re going to get and what the benefit outcome is for them. Right?

Csaba Borzasi  35:12

Yeah, it’s super important. Like the three things that basically matter. At the end of the day, whenever you want to build a business is the list, that’s the most important that’s 41%, then you have the offer, which is 39%. And the remaining 20 is copy. But the like, what this means is that if you have a starving crowd, for example, it doesn’t matter how weak your offer is, or how weak Your copy is, people still want it because they’re starving you. But you need to identify some of their pre existing desires, and then channel those desires onto your product. That’s one of the other things that a lot of people overlook, they start talking about the features of their product, if they are more advanced, they start talking about the benefits of their product. But it’s not enough at all, because you have to channel an existing desire and an existing emotion onto your product. Because if you’re trying to sell something that people fundamentally don’t want, they just don’t want it like you can have the best copy ever, it’s still not going to work.

Heather Pearce Campbell  36:20

Right? It’s why I don’t spend any time trying to, you know, trying to convince somebody that doesn’t already know that they need legal support, that I’m gonna fix their problems, right, they have to have an awareness that in order for their business to grow, they need legal support. Because when they have that pain point, they have an existing desire, right? To fix certain of those things. It’s not to say that I’m not willing to also educate the marketplace, I do a ton of education, because that’s often where people’s awareness starts from. Right. And so, you know, it is interesting to think about, though, what you’re saying about channeling existing desire, because I think a lot of people miss that. And they’re trying to create desire in somebody for something that people just don’t want.

Csaba Borzasi  37:09

Yeah. It’s an interesting thing that you said, very interesting. But it brings up something more of an advanced thing. The biggest pool of customers is always in the unaware market. People who don’t know they have a problem. They don’t not there are solutions and, and who to pick and what to buy. But obviously, the hardest thing to sell is them because you have to basically educate them and shift a lot of their false beliefs and just warm them up so that they actually want this. So the best copywriters in the world who are working for big financial publishers, for example, like agora, the Agora companies, or health companies, like natural health Sherpa, interestingly enough, you know, they write these mammoth long sales pages and sales letters, and I get asked all the time, but like, whoever reads those stuff, right, like who needs long copy, but they wouldn’t do it, if it if it didn’t work, it works. And the reason why it works for cold traffic, so people who are unaware, or maybe they are problem aware, is because sometimes when your messages complex, or sometimes when your market is extremely jaded, you need tons of copy real estate, to basically sell the idea that this is indeed different. And this is the basically a new opportunity, that is the key to their number one desire, and it’s only attainable through a new unique mechanism. But today in 2022, for people to believe this, you basically have to give them tons of proof and 80% of modern day sales letters or video sales letters, their education based content, they called research, they called historical graphs, it’s if it’s like a financial news that our product they, they just layer proof upon proof upon proof. And that’s why it’s so hard to sell to unaware audiences. But eventually, you know, let’s say in your case, you were to let’s say you want to build like a mortar like $100 million business or 10 plus million dollar business. You know, eventually your time is limited and you cannot use the same strategies. But until people get there it’s totally fine to not have a sophisticated website and it’s totally fine to not have webinar automated webinar funnels and stuff like that. You just need the offer people to sell it to you and good message.

Heather Pearce Campbell  39:43

Yeah. Well, and I think though, you know, the the piece that you’re talking about the unaware portion of the market, right, because generally, if you’re talking about a potential lead, you’ve got the cold, the warm the hot, right, the cold being totally unaware, the warm being somebody who’s already We’re that they have a problem, they’re not really yet aware of the solutions. And then the hot leads being ones that are aware they have a problem. And they are aware that there are solutions in the marketplace, they’re just not yet aware that you are the solution. Right. So, you know, I think having an awareness of of those different audiences helped and having a mechanism in place. So for example, well, I don’t spend a lot of time on the cold because I’m a, I’m a small business, I don’t, I don’t need a million customers, right, I don’t need a million customers, I need to be talking to the hearts over here that are aware they have a problem, they’re just not aware. And they they’re aware of certain solutions, they’re just not aware that I’m the ideal solution for them. And let’s be clear, I’m not the ideal solution for everybody, I’m very clear on who my target niche, niche client is. But I will spend and I do a lot, a certain number of hours per month, usually a few, you know, maybe a handful, educating, like providing education in the marketplace, I’m not exists solely to be a resource for the people who are unaware. Because the other thing I’m very clear on is that small businesses and legal needs, you know, part of what keeps them out of the marketplace. One is there being is is the fact that they’re unaware. And two, is also the fact that there are not very many solutions to the problem of either mis education or not enough legal education. Right. So I don’t ignore it completely. I dedicate a certain amount of resources, speaking time, interview time to help with the education piece, but I kind of let that exist in the world and do its work. And over time, many of those people become the warms, right? They will, they will graduate to the next level and be like, Okay, I’m a few years into my business now. Or now I’m actually creating a course or a service that’s making lots of money, I now have a budget to protect it, let’s talk right. So it’s not to say that I completely ignore them, but it’s not where I’m focusing the bulk of my resources on right. So, you know, with where you are, now, I want to be respectful of time. You know, with the fundamentals that you’ve learned, I love I love, love, love the piece about you know, really going back to the basics not being focused on the tactics and the strategies and the the shiny object syndrome. Is there anything else like that certain fundamentals that we should be paying attention to? And then I also do want to hear from you for a few minutes about your video project, the 100 sales letters or, or whatever pieces of marketing?

Csaba Borzasi  42:49

Sure. So another like I could go on and on and on. Right? I know you just covered. Yes, one of the other very interesting things is that if you want to be successful, really successful at advertising, especially in a very crowded marketplace, like how the online space is now and want to make the advertisement itself valuable. And that’s that’s the fundamental principle that superstar copywriter, Gary Bencivenga, came up with he, he’s basically the most successful living copywriter, he’s retired now, but he’s the most successful living copywriter ever, because 80% Of all the promotions he wrote, basically crushed controls before. And what control means is that a marketing campaign, which can be like a newspaper, AD, sales page, Video Sales Letter, something like that. It basically beats the older version. And we are talking the most competitive markets out there. So the financial market, the alternative health market, these are super, super competitive. But he was the first person to identify that you want to make the advertisement itself valuable, because then people feel like they’re not reading an ad like they don’t want to read your ad, their sales resistance immediately goes up there. They’re just, you know, they’re not gonna care so much. But if you if you basically disguise your ad, or sales page or webinar or whatever it can be basically, the reason why webinars became a thing is because they do the same thing. They they conceal the pitch, and added a bunch of teaching before it. Nowadays, everybody knows that if you join a webinar, there’s gonna be the pitch …

Heather Pearce Campbell  44:38

Right and they know the formula and it’s an LP and DAC and blah, blah, blah.

Csaba Borzasi  44:44

That’s why master classes work better nowadays. But what separates master classes from webinars is that master classes provide even more content and they sell less and they don’t try to use all these sophisticated persuasion triggers and NLP techniques. that I’m also familiar with, by the way to sell data, say, you know, here’s everything, go do it on yourself. But if you need help, you know, we’re here to give you basically support and a community and a step by step system and accountability. So I think one of the best ways people can do to, to improve their marketing is to if they’re if they have Facebook ads, for example, try out like longer version, like much longer version ads that have stories that have, you know, tips on something. That’s why advertorials work so well, because they share stories, or they give really tangible tips for people before actually driving them to a landing page. And if you have an email list, I’m a super big fan of email marketing. Yeah, just give them content, give them value, share personal, even vulnerable stories from your life. Because those are all the things that established know, like and trust, and that makes them actually binge read your emails, and then buy your stuff when and then you don’t have to sell hard. That’s the cool thing you’re selling becomes superfluous if you’re marketing shift those beliefs and establishes the one belief that yes, this is indeed different.

Heather Pearce Campbell  46:19

Hmm, yeah, no. And I, you know, that that piece about giving value first, I mean, and I, it’s so fascinating to hear you say that he’s the most successful copyright living copywriter. Like it seems so obvious when you think about it, right? But it’s not, I think so many people do try to like lock their best pieces of information behind some kind of a pay gate, right? When it’s like, in the legal world, if you can develop a relationship with somebody before they have even had to hire legal services, they automatically think of you when it comes like, it’s so relationship based people, you know, legal is one of those things that for a lot of people feels scary and hard and expensive. They really, really want to know like and trust you before, they have to make that size of a commitment, because for a lot of people, it feels big, regardless of whether it really is right. And so it just seems so obvious to give that value. And yet I think people still struggle with that concept and knowing how to use it the right way. Tell me what you would say to somebody on this, this point about sharing personal stories and being vulnerable. I get it. And I think it’s important in order for people to truly know us. But what do you say to folks who are like, yeah, yeah, but I’ve seen that overused in the marketplace to where you see emails come through with like, personal share or personal story, or people overemphasize or use kind of the personal vulnerable approach, in a very formulaic way, because that’s what they’ve been taught as a way to like, really, you know, hook somebody like, how do you talk people into still trying to use it when they feel a little burnt out on that strategy as well?

Csaba Borzasi  48:12

Um, that’s a great question. And if people like if people are listening, they’re burnt out in doing story based email marketing, then kudos to you, because that’s, that shows that you’re on the right path. I would still do it. But maybe in the less formulaic way, because we are hardwired for stories, isn’t there’s no, like, it’s, it’s a fundamental truth of human nature, they work. It’s another thing that many people, they use boring storytelling techniques, or they just use the same old formulas, once again, or they swipe for a copy, you know, emails that were sent by others, and then everybody ends up copying the same person, because they assume that, Oh, it worked for that Guru. So then it must work for me as well. But then the whole message is basically the same. What I would say, especially in emails is that the reason why people read your emails, it’s not about the content actually, nowadays, especially. And it’s there’s a lot of cool research about this nowadays. And you know, the data doesn’t lie. People want educational emails. They want a little bit of trivia about you, if they like what you offer. If you let’s say they sign up for your email list because you gave them a really cool lead magnet that solves one of their burning problems quickly, and give them a quick win. They want to learn more from you because they’ve seen that you can give them value. But the reason why they keep reading your emails is because they want to hear from you. Are you familiar with Laura Belgrade, by the way?

Heather Pearce Campbell  49:49

Yeah, yes. I don’t know her personally, but I know of her.

Csaba Borzasi  49:52

Yeah, she’s a very successful email copywriter. And her stories are really really good in the industry. They’re considered rude. Be good. And like how she does it, for example, it’s a great example. She basically share stuff from her life. It’s a little bit like reality show. And the cool thing about it is that after some time people don’t open your emails, because of your subject line, they just open it because of the from line because they know that, oh, this person always sends me something that that has an insight that’s entertaining, or that just makes me feel better about myself. And this is how I would approach it. Yeah, this is how I do it actually, in my own email on my own email list.

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:38

And that’s awesome. So one, and I know this is an overstatement. But it sounds like you’re saying email still works, which I think people need to hear, right?

Csaba Borzasi  50:49

Email still works. By far. It’s the best consistent marketing channel out there that has the best bang for your buck, by far.

Heather Pearce Campbell  50:57

Yeah, well, and I think this piece of what you just said, consistent, right, I think it does take like anything else showing up consistently for people to have the chance to get to know you. And that my I’ve said this a couple of times on this podcast, but the first year, ironically, that I was able to truly be consistent with my email list was the first year of the pandemic. And it was a real challenge. Because I’m a mom of two little little people, they were home the entire time, you know, I’m trying to do homeschool and keep my business alive and launch a podcast and all the things that I was able to be very, very consistent with my weekly email newsletter, so much so that if I missed it, people would message me and be like, are you okay? I have not seen your newsletter this week. And now was the first time that I was like, oh, people are actually like opening it and paying attention, right. It might just be a few. But it still was really reaffirming to see that, you know, people were paying attention. And anyways, it was it was personally inspiring to me to like, reach that first little benchmark, because made me realize like, the only reason I got to that place because was because of the consistency, right?

Csaba Borzasi  52:15

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s just like, a personal relationship, right? You befriend someone, eventually you start meeting some, you know, a few times, let’s say, a month or a week or something. And if you start, let’s say you meet a few times a week, let’s say you’re on the cast of friends, and they meet every single day, and then suddenly, one of them doesn’t show up for three days. Obviously, it’s like, Oh, my God, what happened? Like, you’re close to me. I mean, I mean, I read their stuff, I know them to some level.

Heather Pearce Campbell  52:48

Yeah. Do you have any thoughts? Because, you know, you hear different people say different things. But some people keep emails really short. And then you know, the goal is to like, lead them over to your website, whereas other people create these, like, really long, intense emails. I’m sure it depends on the person, the scenario, all of that. But do you have any guidance around what you feel is the best? You know, the best mechanism for really, truly connecting with your list?

Csaba Borzasi  53:18

That’s a great question. And what’s really important is the objective of that given email or that given campaign, yes, you can definitely have Super Effective Emails driving traffic to a landing page, if you send them a short, like Curiosity based email, and a lot of so called churn and burn lists do this, a lot of, let’s say, alternative health companies, they do tons of affiliate promotions. And then they have huge lists. And they don’t care about building relationship with them. It’s churn and burn, because people come in, and if they don’t buy something, let’s say after 60 days, they’re pretty much out because they’re just bombarded with offers. But and if you have a business like that, this one tends to work usually better. Even if you have like a small authority based business or personality based business. Sometimes these emails work better work better to funnel traffic to somewhere. But if you want to share beliefs, and this is really important, because in order to get someone to convert, you have to shift beliefs. They have a lot of false beliefs about past solutions. They tried before they have a lot of false beliefs about themselves. They believe that yeah, sure, this might work for you, but you’re I don’t you have all these nice qualifications, but it would never work for me because I’m broken inside or something. But I would never tell people and that’s why stories are powerful. So sometimes, and especially if the story you know, and you know, good stories, they always have a lot of struggle. So the best stories are those that have trouble that has that have ups and downs. If we go to a movie, and the story has three acts and it’s boring. gets like, Oh, yes, the hero goes on this journey. And then they immediately find the solution, they defeat the enemy. And that’s it. Okay, that’s it. But on the other hand, if you go watch, I don’t know, the Avengers movies. And then at the end of Infinity War, everybody, like half the population dies. It’s like, oh my god, like, this is an amazing story. Because it’s there’s a lot of struggle, like be all those heroes, they really have to put up a fight to defeat Thanos with the antagonists of that story.

Heather Pearce Campbell  55:32

Yeah, well, and it’s, you know, earlier you said, so many people tell boring stories. I think people feel intimidated, even. The irony is, I feel like as humans, we’re natural storytellers, right, like, left your own devices. If you’re sitting around with a bunch of friends having a dinner party, you can tell a story that makes people laugh that, you know, people are curious about etc. And then it’s a little bit like when people sit down to do something like that related to their business, they feel like, you know, a roadblock or something. Yeah. How, what, what quick tips you have for people on how to do a better job of utilizing stories, incorporating stories, etc, in a way that’s in a way that works?

Csaba Borzasi  56:21

Yeah, great question that definitely connects to the writer mode that I that I mentioned earlier. You know, one super quick tip. First of all, you have to know your audience, the more research you have, the more you know, their pains, fears, hopes and dreams, the more naturally all this comes. And that’s the real solution to blank page syndrome, to just do research and, and, and read Amazon comments and and just use some so called Voice of cast, customer data mining. But a quick tip super easy. If you let’s say want to write an email to your list, and you have great stories, but nothing really comes. Just record yourself talking, just sit in front of a mirror, like stand in front of a mirror. And imagine that you’re talking to a friend and just record yourself and then transcribe that. And you’ll see how much better it flows usually, because when we’re talking, especially we’re in storytelling mode, people are way more efficient at getting the message across. They’re not always perfect, and a lot of people ramble on for too long. And that’s one of the key, you know, positive effects of learning copywriting is that your whole communication, your whole thinking becomes much more efficient, you will be able to be way better at getting an idea across in a persuasive way. But just record it and transcribe it. And there you have the 80% of the email done.

Heather Pearce Campbell  57:41

Oh, I love that. That’s Oh, that’s such a great tip. Because it’s an unusual one, I think most people would not think of that as a way to go accomplish a writing task. Right?

Csaba Borzasi  57:52

Yeah. Or have someone interview you, that’s also good. Because then you’re just giving them answers. And it comes more naturally.

Heather Pearce Campbell  58:01

Oh, it totally does that. I mean, literally a few minutes before I got on this call, I finished. So my alma mater, the University I went to here in the States is doing an oral history project right now. And their goal is and they’ve been doing like consistent outreach for probably five or six months now. Like, I’m probably one of the final, you know, dragging my feet type of people where I just haven’t responded to the postcards and the emails and all of this stuff. And I got on the phone with them. And so they’re collecting an oral history from 198,000. Students, yeah, that, that have channeled through that university. And they’re trying to compile it into a both a digital and printed oral history, you know, version of a book. But it was fascinating to to observe the woman on the other end of the phone work because I realized, like, they have to do this process over and like, they’re so good at pulling the information out that they want. And they did it in a couple minutes. And it was a great little mini conversation, but it’s exactly what you say like when somebody else is asking you questions, you know, you can get to the point a lot faster than sometimes just, you know, leaving yourself to go on and on and on. Well, Chava I so appreciate the chance to connect with you you have dropped so many fabulous tips that I think will really help people focus on this and focus in a way that is meaningful and can help them really improve their messaging the way that they think about copywriting and their business and you know, and some next steps that they can take, where do you like for people to connect with you in the online world?

Csaba Borzasi  59:41

So we mentioned this 100 Day proven cells that are break down in detail basically what this is, it’s it’s a video playlist on YouTube, it’s there for anyone to see it’s free. It has over 100 hours worth of content breaking down in great detail. 100 very specific adds, and you will find all sorts of niches and products and everything there. However, I know that this is a lot of content for most people. And that’s why I actually created a cool little cheat sheet that combines the best of the best insights that I learned. So if you enjoyed some of the insights, the value bombs that I dropped, then you will definitely love this cheat sheet. It’s called The Secret copy recipe. And basically, it’s the refined essence of this 100 This 100 ads. And the cool thing is that I also give the ultimate persuasive message structure at least that’s what I consider it, you know, step by step, how to actually construct a very, very persuasive message. And then how can you take this prototype, and very easily adapted to a Facebook ad, YouTube ad sales email, along for sales page, or short sales page landing page, it doesn’t matter. And you’re also getting, like a cool little copy checklist to find out, you know, whether your copy how good your copy is, it’s 26 questions that I also use personally. So in order to get that problem, you’re going to have the link somewhere, but it’s Game of conversions.com. So it’s like Game of Thrones, but game of conversions.com forward slash copywriting dash secrets. Once you sign up, you get this you also get the dripped out videos to these sales letter. So it’s not so overwhelming. And you can observe my emails as well, my stories and how I do it.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:01:36

Yeah, that’s fabulous. Well, I mean, it sounds like you have packed a lot into that one, opt in that one resource. And so if you’re listening or highly recommend that you pop over, check this out, we’ll also share your I mean, I’ll share that that page to your gift. You know, people can obviously check out your website game of conversions while they’re there. That will be in the show notes, which you can find at Legal website warrior.com forward slash podcast, and then Java of all of the social media platforms, where do you spend your time?

Csaba Borzasi  1:02:07

Well, email, email, or social media person.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:02:12

I love. First of all, I love that answer. I like to ask just in case somebody wants to go search you and find you on social media. But I personally love that answer. Because ….

Csaba Borzasi  1:02:21

I mean, they can find me on Facebook and LinkedIn as well. And often, of course, on my YouTube channel, but I do a lot of I write a lot of emails.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:02:29

Yeah, perfect. Well, that will be the place that we send them, I will share your other social media links, to have a huge thank you to you for joining me today. What, if any, on top of what you’ve already shared, final action step would you have listeners go do?

Csaba Borzasi  1:02:46

That’s a great question. So many things. But I mean, I would say the biggest thing that basically compounds, every single other tip that we talked about is to have some empathy, in fact, have some damn empathy as, as John Carlton, the legendary copywriter would say, and just know that, again, you are talking to realize people who have emotional scars, and they’re searching for salvation in your services or products. And don’t take that lightly. And if you can emphasize empathize with them and not try to, you know, look at them, like an ATM, ATM machine, you will be much more successful consistently in the long run, and you also feel way better, and you will genuinely help a lot of people. So just have some empathy, and, and try to connect with their emotions. And if you do, then you don’t have to use all these fancy formulas and everything because the message again, it’s going to just come naturally.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:03:47

So when I want to point out that that message gave me goosebumps like it, it’s so spot on. And for people who really want to make a difference, like you, that’s gonna, you know, hopefully come naturally, I will highlight a real life example of that. So recently, I was telling you about this catalyst Club program that I launched, that’s a small business, kind of comprehensive legal support program that I developed for a very specific type of client and I didn’t have anything written about it, no landing pages, no emails, and I spoke with a guy. And you know, one of the things that I pride myself on it just comes naturally, I really can’t take much credit because it’s just how I feel about entrepreneurs is like, I don’t know any lawyers that will care more than I do about their business and their business success doesn’t make me the best lawyer but I will work like a dog for that person to try to help them succeed and to help them figure out what they need. And it was reflected back to me and one of my recent capitalist club clients who he said, you know, and this is a 25k offer. He went and shopped the marketplace, after connecting with me spoke with a bunch of other people and you He called me back the next week and I said, you know, I’d like to hire you. He said, I just really felt like you were going to take care of me. I just really felt like you were gonna, like do everything possible to take care of me. And it was such a gift back to me because that is how I feel about people. That is how I want them to feel is like I will do my darndest I would climb a skyscraper for them to help them succeed. But it you know, especially in small businesses, especially when you have to rely on personal relationships, and I think all of us should care about our reputation. Like there is there is no other way. So I love that that was the perfect ending point. Nobody’s ever said that on the podcast it it was brilliant.

Csaba Borzasi  1:05:45

Great to hear that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it is what really counts.

Heather Pearce Campbell  1:05:49

Yes, thank you Csaba. I hope we have the chance to connect again very soon. Thank you.

GGGB Outro  1:05:57

Thank you for joining us today on the Guts, Grit & Great Business™ podcast. We hope that we’ve added a little fuel to your tank, some coffee to your cup and pep in your step to keep you moving forward in your own great adventures. For key takeaways, links to any resources mentioned in today’s show and more, see the show notes which can be found at legalwebsitewarrior.com/podcast. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed today’s conversation, please give us some stars and a review on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast so others will find us too. Keep up the great work you’re doing in the world and we’ll see you next week.